You are right of course. But when you read of hunters taking 20-30 species on a 7 day RSA ranch hunt one would think that you can still use a day or two to hunt on foot the whole time and still end up with more trophies than you can fit in your living room

Mark, that about sums it up.

The truth is, there's a lot of fakery involved with this subject, and a lot of guys would never admit that they've fired from the truck.

Listen close, and you'll discover that the silence is deafening........

AD

Ray as usual you are spot on. Thirty years ago I would never thought of hunting from a truck, H*ll 30 yrs ago all I could afford was Pa deer season. Then we pot hunted ie find a good crossing and spend the day until dark and use a flash light to find your way out of the woods. Now with bum wheels where walking a couple of hundered yards hurts a lot I find my self doing things a bit different, eh.

Russ, do you hear the silence yet?

AD

Indeed you did not coin the phrase fair chase and you also don't have the right to define it for anybody but yourself.



Regardless there are no gray areas such as less fair chase because the other side of that coin is more fair chase, all a bunch of self serving nonsense.

Anyone think that taking a shot from the vehicle is fair chase?

How about climbing down from the vehicle and shooting from a nearby tree or from the sticks?

And spotting the game from the vehicle from afar, then hiking closer and making the final stalk on hands and knees before taking the shot?

Just calibrating!

I say no, no, yes. I think we all know what fair chase means.

I guess sometimes we like to be fair, other times we are OK being unfair. For whatever specific reasons. (He's huge and he's standing right alongside the road; only one day left in the hunt and I don't have my kudu yet; it's just a damn jackal/warthog/baboon; want to get this one out of the way so I can be sure of getting everything in the package; my blood got hot; too darn tired; too darn old; and didn't really want to shoot but the PH stopped and said "take him"!)

It just feels better to be fair. At least to me it does.

Guys,

About all I could say on this subject is to make sure you and your PH are on the same page about the shooting from the truck. If you don't want to do it don't but let the PH know because his last 12 clients may have been fine with it.

Regards,

Mark

allen day

the thread is not about shooting animals from vehicles, it's about hunting animals from vehicles. I hope you can tell the difference.

Since you need a fix, why don't you relay your experiences....you know go first, ah the deafening silence.

I have shot a lot of stuff from the truck, I have jumped out of the truck and shot from a nearby tree, I have shot them at night, and I have shot them running while we chased them in a truck...I have also walked the track behind the elephant for 20 miles a day, day after day, climbed the highest slopes for various sheep, climbed some damn rough country in Idaho, Alaska, canada and other parts of the world, been on some grueling hunts, and some cakewalks...and I made all the choices myself, some I'm not all that proud of, some I'm damn proud of..

Given my druthers, I like a fair chase hunt, with lots of walking and thats what I do mostly, but as I get older the walks get shorter, and I don't have the enthusiam that I used to, I've done it all and its just not as important to me how I do it these days...Mostly its a day of short spot and stalks with me, no more than 5 miles lets say with an ocassional day long hike.

Today, I wouldn't let a 60 inch Kudu or 50 inch buffalo get away because I was in a truck, I'd probably shoot him from the truck if allowed to do so, which ain't likely, or I would jump out and shoot him, and if he got the jump on me I would follow him 20 miles if that is what it took,...I know some will take exception to this post and I don't really care about that anymore, it's just simply the truth of the matter and I can't change anything I've done in the past..

All that said, a lot depends on the PH, none of the PHs that I rep for would allow me or anyone to shoot from the truck, but would let me get out of the truck and shoot something. The exception is for the camps table fare, and for the game scouts table...

However, I have been at it so long that it is not a big issue with me..I suppose we get hardened to killing after awhile, and such things don't really bother us..If it thrills someone to shoot an Impala or Eland from a truck, I don't really care as long as the shot is a clean kill,and The Impala is dead, regardless of where the shot comes from...

Ray, you have been in the business longer than I have, I would guess, but you have never encountered a PH who enourages a client to shoot from a vehicle? I have. More than once. And about half of the hunting vehicles I have used actually have a padded bar across the roof expressly designed as a rifle rest.

Here's an example:

"Dear Russ,
How many hunters and how many non hunters acompany the hunters. With more than thee people you can forget hunting by foot. ( PH, Tracker and Hunter).
Because of surcomstance hunting is done mostly by car, or sitting in a hide. It is not easy to hunt on foot in this terrain, it is way's to noisy.
Kindest regards"

Here we go from a fenced ranch in Namibia. An area very suited to hunting (that is, spotting AND stalking) on foot, I have done it personally.

I am ashamed to admit that I was once urged to shoot an impala ram in the headlights of a vehicle while returning from a hunt, and I did so. Needless to say I didn't get it mounted, there was nothing to remember. I have also shot plenty of Springbok with a light but that was culling and the shots were headshots, and I don't recall any of those except one where I shot low and took the animal's jaw off. That still bothers me.

As I have stated in a previous post, I have also spotted from the vehicle and then gotten off for a short stalk, more than once. Some of these experiences were quite good, if a real stalk ensued, and some were anti-climactic if it was just a question of a short crouching walk and then the shot.

Now I am not imposing my values on the rest of the hunting fraternity, just stating that I find hunting on foot so much more enjoyable and memorable. Among other things, you feel you are really in Africa, complete with thorns, interesting bones, seedpods, rocks, grasses, insects, birds, trees, and snakes as well as animals. And if you do it right, the animal doesn't know you are there so you are not hurried in your shot. In many cases I have observed the quarry for more than 5 mins, in some cases up to an hour, before taking a shot. You chances of fluffing the shot are much lower in those circumstances. These circumstances also let you observe animal behavior such as bulls fighting, mating, playing etc, something you can't do when the vehicle has just put everything on high alert. You don't get the same feeling of wilderness riding around on a Toyota, and frankly you miss quite a lot of game that way.

Of course, if you are physically unable to walk, you can't do so and I am not suggesting that you hang up your rifle. I am also somewhat sympathetic to the use of a vehicle to spot in traditional concessions where the game is sparse and hard to locate, and have done so and will do so myself at times. So there is no need to be defensive, as I stated above, you decide where to draw the line, it's your hunt.

I don't think anyone is trying to prove that he is macho. We are talking about modest distances on easy terrain mainly, not death marches across Africa.

For Mr. Odie's benefit, the 2600 acre ranch referenced does not allow hunting within 200 metres of a vehicle, within 1km of camp, or at any waterhole unless in pursuit of a wounded animal. Hunters are told ahead of time that these are the rules, and the operator has no difficulty finding folks to hunt by his rules, many of whom are repeat customers. And yes, the thick vegetation and game densities in that area are such that hunting on foot very effective if done right, more so than hunting by vehicle. Those old bulls don't get old by hanging around staring at hunters climbing off vehicles.

Having said all this, I did not coin the phrase "fair chase" and that phrase does imply that other methods are less fair. If the cap fits....

I personally would be surprised that any hunter with substantial experience around the planet has never shot anything from the truck. From Montana to Ontario to Zimbabwe and a bunch of places I've never been to this seems to be the default hunting method. Tell your guide you don't want to and he'll tell you your chances just went down by 75% If that is ok then have at it.

George,

Are you saying that hunting from vehicles lowers the cost of hunting by increasing the turnover? Or the opposite (which I believe to be true)? It wasn't clear from your posting.

Mark Sutherland charges $150 per day and up and his trophy prices are very reasonable as well (see website). The reason for his low rate is 1. he is not putting tens of thousands of miles on expensive 4x4s every year on terrible roads; 2. He owns his own property and is not paying some landowner by the day and for each animal 3. He manages his game and is blessed with good soil and rainfall, so he doesn't engage in expensive "put and take" hunting like so many of the South African ranches who buy game at auction prices (ouch, I think I just started another debate); 4. His camp is simple and traditional, not a fancy lodge, and you can actually hear the night sounds as opposed to the air-conditioner; 5. He offers you the option of doing your own catering; and 6. He has no time for hunters who drink excessively and his rates don't include an open bar.

Are you also saying that foreign hunters are being taken advantage of or gouged? There is some truth to this, as the PHs in South Africa and Namibia do get together occasionally, they do have a kind of monopoly (by law, you have to use a PH if you are a foreigner), and they do discuss pricing at these get-togethers. However, everything is negotiable and you can find good deals, just like any other major purchase. For example, the many offers posted on this forum including the Kudu@520/BWB@500 offer I just posted a couple of days back.

How do you feel about the price of Alaska Moose or New Mexico elk hunts? IMHO, Southern Africa (I exclude Tanzania and Zambia) is a screaming bargain compared to those hunts.

I have not seen any PHs encourage anyone to shoot from the truck or hunt at night except on cull hunts...

In a legitamate operation you will see spot and stalk or foot hunts, and that is at the clients descretion, depending on his phyical capabilities for the most part, everyone is not young and strong, many folks work in an office 11 months out of the year without time to workout in many cases, that is how they can afford to go to Africa, and most including myself would rather skip the long unproductive walks, and use a spot and stalk method, I still seem to get more than my share of exercise as most spot and stalks end up in a very long walk indeed...

I have been operating in Africa as long or longer than anyone on this board and what I have seen is 99% of the PHs out there are very professional in all their dealings.

This type of thread is getting all to common and wears on my tolerance level, as holier than thou type of nonsence, that tends more to show the posters what a big strong tough guy someone is, and has little to do with the subject at hand, in reality, inasmuch as we all have the option to hunt in the manner we choose..

Odie, of course I know the difference. I did not just happen to fall off the cabbage truck last Friday at 2:30 PM PDT.

There are certain PHs, even some very famous ones, who have built near-entire careers out of "hunting" from the back of vehicles. This is a matter of absolute fact, but it keeps getting swept under the shag carpet by a host of players in the safari industry, both PHs and clients. Of course, everybody keeps quiet about their good-ol'-boy hunting buddies and pet PHs who operate that way...........

AD

I'm with Russ, the best thing is to go to the area you want to hunt in the bakkie, and from there search for the game on foot.
I'm not a saint, I've done everything (and will continue doing it depending the circunstances), I've shoot game from vehicles, walk for miles, used spotlights, you name it, (and I don't want to remember when I was too young to carry a gun and walked the forests for miles with only snares in my belt... )

But after doing and trying everything, my best hunting memories are the ones I spot and stalk the animals on foot.

LG

I do know being fair is not about denigrating the legal methods used by your fellow hunters.

Being judgemental is never fair, one side always loses.

I am unequivocally opposed to anything that will raise prices. We're already taking it in the neck, paying lots more than everything is worth.

George

"Muletrain is not saying you or anyone else should ONLY hunt that way!"

You obviously didn't read his post. The part that set me off was if you're there to enjoy the hunt and not "just" shoot trophies, you would/should be hunting on foot. That's bullshit. Further, did you actually go to the website he referenced. I'm sure it's a nice well run place and all but it's a concession of 2600 acres (with a nice picture of the nyala at a watering hole, hmmmmm). The last place I hunted had a "no fire" zone around the camp of that size and they were quite adamant that no game animals be taken anywhere near a watering hole.

In fact I've done both spot and stalk and foot hunts in Africa and enjoyed both. I don't have to feel and smell every square foot of real estate for that to be a FACT!

I simply do not appreciate being told what is good and bad in hunting methodologies (legal is legal). Simply state your preferences and leave it at that, it's not a damn religion.

I prefer that the vehicle be used to get to a hunting area, and once the game is spotted, get out and conduct the stalk. I've also been in situations where we'd drive to a general area, then head to a specific spot on foot to glass for game. Sometimes this has involved climbing to a vantage point (i.e. rock kopje), glassing, then stalking on foot. At other times, we'd spend whole days tracking game on foot, most specifically when hunting lions and buffalo.

I've also taken game right out of the rig at time--and feel-good theories be damned--often there simply isn't time to get out and make a proper stalk. That's just the way it is, and this often involves some very fast and hasty shooting, sometimes at very long and difficult targets, so the "easy" aspect of this isn't always so easy, vehicle or no vehicle.

None of this stuff is or should be treated cut and dried or carved into stone. Hard and fast rules of order are just made to be broken on safari. If you're smart, you'll take your opportunites as they arise. Every hunting day is different, and every situation is different. That's what makes African hunting so much fun.

If the opportunity is right, by all means get out and stalk or spend whole days hunting on foot if that's appropriate or even the best way to proceed. But if you have the a fleeting chance at a stupendous trophy and only have time for a shot from the Landcruiser, don't get hung up on protocol--get out and take the shot!

Your time is limited on safari, so make it count. Sure, you can probably get out and do it all on foot, day-in and day-out if you want to, but African huunting areas are very big, and you might just go home with very few trophies as a result. It's your call either way..........

AD

Many good points Russ. But in terms of $$$ you will see and shoot more from a car, which will make the average landowner very happy. I am not some super experienced hunter or anything, but nearly every PH I have seen has given me the opportunity to stay in the car or get out and stalk. NONE of them force you, but some will continue to drive around at 20km once the sun has risen and you realise he doesn't plan on stopping until you ask him to.
Also, the fact that someone walks 20kms in a day doesn't make it more fair than someone that walks 2km, some hunts are more physical than others. Walk 20km in some areas and you will spook a lot of game...
Lastly, people often make excuses and someone noticed above, as if it is OK to shoot because you weren't looking for it but it was a 'target of opportunity'...the bottom line is if you have strict rules, great- you might go home empty handed but you will always sleep well. If you take all shots, also great, the PH will love you (I've never met a PH that was happy when nothing was brought to ground for a couple days) and you will have a lot of trophies, with less exciting tales. Either way is good, and people can, and do hunt their entire lives with just one method.

In my way of thinking, everything is relevant to circumstances...

-Age and physical condition of the client(s).

-Game density in a given area.

-Time contraints based on species type, terrain, weather, etc.

-Local practice in a given country or locale.

I grew up hunting white-tail deer and small game in very thick brush, briers, grapevines, monkey vines, etc. etc. We walked all day til sundown and then made our way home on foot. My last trip to RSA, we took the cruiser to a choice spot, took off on foot to spot and stalk, then called in the cruiser by hand-held to pickup the carcass. I had a 63 year old friend along, who I know walked/stalked/crawled at least 3 miles to kill his record blue wildebeest, which he shot with an open-sighted 44Mag handgun at 110 yards. That's the hunt he remembers most and that night he went to the bunk very early. Many times we walked for a couple hours to locate a given species. Hunting blesbok in open grasslands will get you plenty of exercise!

But, the circumstances dictate the methods.

"Hunt of foot and the percentages fall. So should the safari company charge more money for a walking only hunt? I don't see how asking that question could be judgemental. "


MT, I think Odie was referring to me. He thinks I am being judgemental. I suppose the opposite of "fair chase" is "unfair chase" and unfair could be construed to be a judgemental word.

Anyway, I have never encountered a situation where I was asked to pay more to hunt on foot. On the contrary, I have found that it sometimes costs less for reasons enumerated in another post. Less use of the vehicle, and less chance of a wounded animal. Also, some PH's like a client who wants to hoof it...it's a welcome change!!!!

And I don't think it's necessarily true that you end up with fewer trophies. Just better ones. The average SA ranch, for example, is 5000 acres, roughly 5000 yards (3 miles) square. You can walk from one end to the other in a morning, slowly. Only on large concessions with scattered game would you lower your odds enough to make a difference.

I have had cases where the PH has come back and said "to hunt on foot, one has to hunt 1x1, no 2x1 discount". I accept that, it makes sense. But I have also paid 2x1 and split up, one of us with the universal apprentice, one with the PH.

Well this has sort of gone down hill and no one answered the original question. It was not my intention to judge anybody's style of hunting or debate ethics. So I will try again.

There is a price structure to an RSA package hunt. X number of animals for Y dollars. Pick one animal from this list of three of the larger plainsgame species and then add these four other less expensive animals. Kill all five and you owe Y dollars. Kill a few more animals and pay the extra trophy fees.

The outfitter makes a fair profit on the package or he would not offer it. The extra animals are extra profit. Everyone is happy.

Hunt of foot and the percentages fall. So should the safari company charge more money for a walking only hunt? I don't see how asking that question could be judgemental.

Just for the record I have shot from the truck. My first hunt was for cape buffalo in Chewore eleven years ago. Kudu was also on my wish list. I had wanted a kudu since reading about this animal in a Sports Afield magazine in highschool. Got the buff. But there were very few kudu in this area. Then several days into the hunt there was one standing just off the two track in the woods sort of gawking at the truck. The PH said " Quick, shoot him. " Being my first safari, I had come to regard the PH as a hero figure. Without giving it any thought at all I shot. That animal is not displayed on my wall.

This is just my opinion so don't take it the wrong way. I think shooting from the truck compared to hunting on foot is like comparing paying a prostitute for sex and making love to a beautiful woman.

A good prostitute can make it real fun. Some people are quite satisfied with the results especially if they are on a tight schedule. For others that is all that they are capable of getting. If that's what makes you happy then it's all fine and dandy.

Personally I like to walk when I hunt.

But if a guy has mobility issues, we should not condemn him for using transport when available to make hunting more accessible to him.

On a good concession I belive that you could shoot as much game walking as you could driving or spot and stalk..Figure even on a drive hunt you never shoot more than two animals a day and most likely only one animal a day...

I sure would not like it if I got the idea that a PH was pushing me or a client to shoot as many animals as possible ..

I have not experienced that on any hunt that I have been on..Most all PHs take a lot of pride in being sure that you get the very best of trophies and will not let you shoot a lesser animal unless you insist, if that is not the case, then your hunting with the wrong outfit and thats for sure...

I don't know of many rip off artists in RSA nor were there any in the old Zimbabwe..If money was any kind of a goal what so ever, they wouldn't be PHs in Africa...Most I have known were proud of their ability and judged themselves by the quality of the hunts they offered...

Not a lot of people get ripped off in Africa as compared to other countries and the USA....

I hope this is more into answering your question as I read it...

Why does walking and climbing have to be the end all for something to be a good hunt? I have friends who will walk your legs off doing a hunt, but are not very good at setting for Turkey or Bear over bait. Is shooting an animial at 400 yds a good hunt or should you try to get closer for a good clean kill. This can go on and on for ever. I guess this is what this board is for, eh.

Allen, your first post says it all and well. I can't add anything, except to point out that by posting this response, I have not remained silent.

I'm finding this subject pretty interesting. So what is the concensus of opinion? Is it all right to shoot from the truck under any circumstances? Is it not appopriate to shoot from the vehicle at all? Are there times when it is all right and times when it is not? These questions of course do not apply to folks with physical disabilities.

On my first safari after we shot the buffalo we moved to "The Plains Game Area". I was so dumb I didn't know it was a fenced property until we got there. Anyway I was strongly encouraged to shoot from the truck since nothing would stand still. Of course the game wouldn't stand still they were chasing it with the vehicles daily.

Since my first hunt I have shot wounded game, animals to fill the scout's tag and a lion bait from the vehicle but no trophies even when the PH has encouraged me to shoot. That is my personal choice and it has made the hunting harder but I'm fine with it. So I guess I'm one of the people that feels it is all right sometimes.

I do think that we North American's tend to judge hunting ethics in the rest of the world by our standards and I don't think that is fair. Hunting a moose here in Alaska has very little resemblance to a plains game hunt in RSA so if the hunts are drastically different why wouldn't the ethics be different? Better yet as long as it is legal just do what feels good to you.

Regards,

Mark