spawned by the infamous 45/70 (now 50 AK) threads -


Obviously, the .375 H&H is the minimum standard by which all others are measured in most countries, but I have to wonder about some other rounds for DG . . .

first off, what is the minimum standard? defined by bore size and velocity?

Now for the slate of cartridges/rounds: (Note, this is assuming the round is (A) legal and (B) you can carry properly head-stamped brass, etc)

1. 9.3x62 (legal in Zim?)
2. 9.3x74 (legal in Zim?)

3. .376 Steyr/.375 Scovill (e.g. 30-06 necked up to .375)
4. .411 Scovill-Hawk (e.g. 30-06 necked up to .411)
5. .375/300 Win Mag
6. .375/350 Rem Mag

Although I actually have a 9.3x62, this thread is mostly just for idle discussion . . . If and/or when I hunt buffalo in Africa, I'll probably use a .375 H&H (or possibly a .416 of some sort) . . . it would be an excuse to get a .375 anyway, wouldn't it? Just curious about some of the above mentioned rounds . . .

Troy

FWIW,

The Zim regs require both bullet diameter and energy to meet certain minimums. I think you can find it on the ZPHA website and I think its on the countries firearms forms. IIRC the catagories are for smaller plains game, then bigger and including leopard. then lion, then buff and elephant.

Just from recolection, I believe that for buff and elephant the 9.3x68 was minimum just meeting diameter and energy figures. The 9.3x62 and 9.3x74 didn't make it I think.

JPK

quote:

Obviously, the .375 H&H is the minimum standard by which all others are measured in most countries,

From my reading the 9.3 X 62 is used commonly for Buffalo even though it's a tad light of the energy requirements.....a "grandfathered" cartridge so to speak...

Also, I get the distinct feeling that almost any cartridge that your PH approves is allowable. Legally?...well maybe not but the energy requirement isn't policed and if the PH says it's OK then no one asks questions.

If I had a good A-Frame load for the .358 Norma Magnum, I'd not hesitate to ask the PH if he'd take me using that round. Same for the .358 STA but there comes a time when one is pushing his PH'S good graces by asking to use things like the .257 roberts etc.
In the end if the PH says .375 or stay home, I'm breaking out and getting a gun to suit his demands.

Not for me ........

AD

By the way, if you are the typical US hunter shooting something in the 30-06 class, or in a shotgun only deer area, a 375H&H doesn't take much getting used to. Sight in the rifle then get off the bench and soon the recoil isn't anything to take note of. Practice enough and you don't loose the sight picture during recoil. That comment limited to rifles weighing nine pounds or more.

I have no experience with the 416 rounds. The 458wm at 2090fps is hardly noticeable on game but I notice it on the range in any position and never look forward to a bench session. I have gone thirty rounds at a session but now find that I'm happy with fewer. With open sights you needn't loose your perception of your shot or its effect on game. Recoil recovery should be very quick. My rifle weighs ten and a half pounds.

FWIW,

JPK

When one of these discussions broke out before, everyone had their own version of "the law". In the interest of truth, I wrote to the PH association of almost every African hunting country, purporting to be a future hunter asking for guidance in firearm selection with the intent to stay legal. Surprisingly, I recieved only one response, from RSA. Their response: "Whatever the PH says is OK".

Art,

That may be true but Zim does have a published set of rules. I have held and read a copy of them and have them on file here somewhere.

JPK

Apparently Namibia only requires a certain muzzle energy for different levels of game. These energy levels can be found on the Namibian PH association websie. Again as stated many times before in the various threads, just because it's legal doesn't make it prudent.

Anybody ever hunt buff with a 45-70?

The devil made me write that!

quote:

Originally posted by cewe:
Anybody ever hunt buff with a 45-70?

The devil made me write that!

Welcome to the forums CEWE, if you make a search for buffalo + 45-70 with the search tools available here on this site I am sure you will find what you are looking for.

Just a hint, I dont think you will be allowed very long around here......

quote:

I have no experience with the 416 rounds. The 458wm at 2090fps is hardly noticeable on game but I notice it on the range in any position and never look forward to a bench session. I have gone thirty rounds at a session but now find that I'm happy with fewer.

Have you tried a standing position as if you are shooting on sticks? I have been using a tripod with my hand under the forend and it is definitely easier on my head, neck, and nervous system than at the bench.
Frank

My hunting time is too valuable to dick around with underpowered or inferior rounds when it comes to hunting Cape buffalo.


I'll leave that for the 'bwana-bes' and their armchair safaris.

George

quote:

Originally posted by Troy Hibbitts:


1. 9.3x62 (legal in Zim?)
2. 9.3x74 (legal in Zim?)

3. .376 Steyr/.375 Scovill (e.g. 30-06 necked up to .375)
4. .411 Scovill-Hawk (e.g. 30-06 necked up to .411)
5. .375/300 Win Mag
6. .375/350 Rem Mag

I shot a baboon in the butt with a 9.3 x 62 and it worked just fine. And it happens to be the legal minimum for DG in Zim, kind of like the .243 for elk. Although it has been proven time and time again that a well placed bullet will kill any animal, screw-ups happen often enough that I feel more confident with a larger round in my primary rifle. For PG and for a replacement rifle in case my DGR is out of commission, the 9.3 has its place for me.

George,

My question though really boils down to "are these 'other' rounds actually 'underpowered or inferior'"?

I'm honestly asking, for the sake of discussion in the "off-season" as it were.

If our "yardstick" is energy, then a quick perusal of my Barnes reloading manual shows:

9.3x62, 286 grains = 3818 Muzzle Energy
9.3x74, 286 grains = 3215 ME
.375 Scovill, 270 grains = 3747 ME; 300 grains = 3448 ME
.376 Steyr (not in Barnes manual, calculated) 270 gr = 4055 ME, 300 gr = 3748 ME
.375 flanged (375 in a double gun), 270 gr = 3525 gr; 300 grains = 3448 ME
.375 H&H, 270 gr = 4494 ME, 300 gr = 4250 ME

I can find no readily available data for the .411 Scovill-Hawk

Not sure what the "magic" ME number there is, but it looks like if its "4000" then the .376 Steyr makes it, but the double gun version of the .375 (flanged) doesn't . . . of further interest, several of the .338s (starting with the .338 WM) either come awfully close or exceed that number, as do bigger .358s (Norma & Lapuas).

Of course, this is all academic. I want to own a .375 H&H - I got my 9.3x62 for shooting the larger plains game, elk, and big Texas hogs.

Troy

Cape buffalo don't really care about the artificial yardsticks of "energy" and "foot-pounds", or penetration in newsprint; that's for the armchair safari hunters.

You need to disrupt as much (vital area) tissue as possible, by making a large, deep hole through it.

George

Troy,

FWIW my books give energy figures a whole lot higher for the 375 Flanged. Either at or just under 4000 ftpds.

When it comes to cartridge selection I have limited experience since all three of the buff and both elephants I have shot were with the same calibre, 458wm, and same bullets, Woodleigh solids, and these worked just fine.

Having shot plains game with a 375H&H I think I would want to stick to solids for buff if I were to use it, but then again my PH wanted solids only from any calibre for buff. I felt that on the bigger plains game where the penetration was tested and bullets recovered that the std Federal TBBC was lacking in penetration for buff.

Lots of others' experience argues the other way though. I don't believe there is any issue with 375 solid penetration and perhaps another choice of softs would point in the other direction for me too. Like 500grains with the 9.3x62, my 375 is my plains game/back up rifle.

If you are going to buy a DG rifle and have no real use in the US, why wouldn't you step up from the 375H&H?

Frank,

Yes I shoot off sticks and offhand too. Still, I am fully aware of the recoil when practicing off hand or off the sticks and I don't look forward to a bench session. Shooting game the recoil is sufficient to let you know the round went off and no more. I'm not at my recoil limit, but after 20 rounds I sure know I've been shooting, even off the sticks or off hand.

JPK

Things I don't care much about on safari:

1. a GPS/compass (the trackers know where we are, and if they don't then I won't be of much help anyway).
2. cowboy boots (they would surely bite my toes off)
3. monte carlo cheekpieces
4. camouflage toilet paper (I don't answer nature's call with a trophy animal watching.)
5. energy figures

George has it right - put a big bullet through the vitals at sufficient velocity for deep penetration. That basically means a 400 to 600 grain bullet with a sectional density of .300 or more moving at 2100 fps or more.

Yes, the 9.3x62 is my favourite cartridge, but I felt a whole lot more comfortable with my 416 Hoffman (pre 416 Rem days), on Buff. I think that most people on this, or any other forum will agree that Cape Buff (or asiatic water buff) are a critter you do NOT want to screw around with! Use the biggest gun you can comfortably handle, and place that shot well!
If I could hack the recoil, I would use a 458 Lott. I can't, but if you can that would be my reccomendation.

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

The reason I tossed out "energy figures":

quote:

The Zim regs require both bullet diameter and energy to meet certain minimums

however, when you say:

quote:

put a big bullet through the vitals at sufficient velocity for deep penetration. That basically means a 400 to 600 grain bullet with a sectional density of .300 or more moving at 2100 fps or more.

that either translates into energy (KE=mass times velocity squared) or momentum (momentum = mass times velocity) - whichever is your poison. One of those figures has to directly translate into "penetration" (assuming a well constructed bullet). I happen to think momentum translates better, but that's just me.

As for why "limit" myself to a .375 H&H instead of "moving up" to a .458 WM or Lott? A variety of reasons, including:

the .375 is more of a "classic"
the .375 is much more versatile

I suspect I'd shoot the .375 a lot more accurately, owing to it being lighter in recoil . . . and a "well placed bullet of appropriate construction and penetration" kills a hell of a lot better than a monster bullet that just hits the buff somewhere.

Troy

Troy,

Good points. I also favor momentum, at least for bigger animals.

I have a 375H&H so you don't have to sell its merits to me, I love mine! But follow my logic for a minute here.

When I picked up my 375 it was going to be my middle rifle in a three rifle battery for Africa. The big rifle was going to be a double and the light a 30-06. I own all of the rifles now. My double is in the odd for a double 458wm but it has worked flawlessly for me. My 375 worked just fine on everything from impala to eland and I'm sure would have worked just fine, if needed, on Buff or elephant.

Traveling with three firearms used to be no big deal but the airlines are making it more of a pita. For example the ammo weight restrictions, two guns per case max restriction, luggage, overall and by the piece, weight restrictions...You are practically limited to two guns for all but the longest safari where the cost of overweight baggage and having the safari company pre arrange for some of your ammo is insignificant compared to the overall cost. A situation few of us will face, unfortunately

The 375H&H will do it all, but it is on the bottom end of the dg scale and lacks a little in the trajectory dept for longer shots (not an issue for me since I'm no long range shooter and the 375 has all the trajectory I can put to use). It a great second rifle for a dg hunt and also a good back up for a plains game hunt.

If you heavy rifle hasn't been aquired how 'bout a 416 Rigby? Lots of tradition! Highly effective! Still has a good trajectory for target of oportunity plains game while dg hunting! Second rifle could be the 358NM or anything down to about a 7x57 or 7mm-08.

Better on the top end and little loss of versatility. You'd still have your light rifle for plains game.

Just my thoughts (really adapted from a fellow I know who has been on maybe six safaris and uses a 416 RM and an 8mm RM); and you wouldn't go wrong with a 375.

JPK

Here is my 2 cents on this topic.

I'm not sure why anyone would want to hunt DG with a minimum "anything". Some people like the 375 H&H and it is usually considered the "standard" minimum in most countries and I think it is just that - "the minimum"!

However, I prefer something more - for me my minimum is a 416. The reason for my choice is: 1) I don't want the PH to have to shoot my trophies 2) I want to be able to "stop" an animal if something goes wrong. After all DG animals didn't get this label by always running away. So, from my view point - why use a minimum anything. I would prefer to use a caliber that will get the job done under any circumstances. You really need to think about what caliber you want in your hands when a buffalo full of adrenaline is coming for you.

2 sides of the coin:

If someone does the job right with the first shot, he won't need to face the "adrenaline charged" DG trying to stomp the life out of him. Therefore, the rifle that he can shoot the best, and place the bullets the best and deepest would therefore seem the best choice.

Of course, if you screw up, and get charged, then you need a "stopper" . . . however, its my understanding that, in the event of a charge, the PH is going to be using his judgement to get you out of the bind your poor shooting just got yourself into.

As for the Rigby - I have certainly considered the grand old .416 . . . it is a great round.

What I'd really like (but doubt I'd be able to do, considering I don't know anyone that owns anything bigger bore than my 9.3 or a .338 WM) is to have a selection of these guns available to shoot - not too may denizens of Camp Wood, TX, will ever get to Africa or need a DGR . . .

My, how my topic has drifted far afield . . . LOL

Troy

quote:

Troy Hibbitts
New Member

Posted 29 November 2005 20:18
2 sides of the coin:

If someone does the job right with the first shot, he won't need to face the "adrenaline charged" DG trying to stomp the life out of him. Therefore, the rifle that he can shoot the best, and place the bullets the best and deepest would therefore seem the best choice.

Of course, if you screw up, and get charged, then you need a "stopper" . . . however, its my understanding that, in the event of a charge, the PH is going to be using his judgement to get you out of the bind your poor shooting just got yourself into.

As for the Rigby - I have certainly considered the grand old .416 . . . it is a great round.

Troy,
No disrespect to your opinion, but you just need to go and see for yourself (i.e., hunt them). They aren't penned up or under a feeder. The shot presentations are at different angles, usually in brush or sometimes tall grass. Sometimes their vitals (i.e., the target area) are in shadows and difficult to see. Hell if you put an undisturbed buffalo out in a parking lot most people could kill it with a 30/06 and think that that's all they needed.

Open invitation: I have a 375 H&H and a 416 Rigby and if you are ever in Houston you are welcome to shoot both of them.

Troy,

What you say is almost always true from all reports.

Where I think carrying a bigger rifle is most important is when you are hunting elephants, especially tuskless cows. We were chased maybe eight times "unprovoked", in the sense that nothing had yet been shot. Flat out charged another half dozen times. We were sought by the herd after shooting one elephant. In each case we were able to back out or run and avoid shooting an elephant we didn't want to shoot. But it was a close call a couple of times.

We were also bluff charged when looking for a waterbuck or whatever else and walking down a dry creek bed. I felt poorly armed with my 375 and all softs in the magazine. If she'd have come all the way I would never have had time to switch and would have had to rely on the PH, period. The last time time we were charged was by a cow just after we'd left the truck looking for a nice warthog. This one was a really, really close call. I was carrying my 375 again loaded with all softs and that was the last time I did that. One soft up the spout and four solids in the magazine after that.

(An aside here - I'd always read that when charged by elephants you must stand your ground and shoot your way out. Here in thick green brush you could back out if you had a good screen of brush and the elephants were chasing your scent on a swirling or shifting wind or you could flat out run when charged and put some brush between you and the elephant and the elephant would loose you and return to the herd. Exciting stuff, especially since you gave em five minutes to settle down and then made another approach trying to get the shot on the elephant you want.)

There is an article on the African Hunter Magazine website that gives statistics for surviving really close elephant charges that resulted in the hunter shooting (at?) the elephant. Those with 375's almost never survived. Those carrying more rifle had better chances, based on the rifle. It went all the way up to a 50% chance of making it out intact. I recall that these were mostly citizen hunters without PH's. You should look at the article.

And again I'm not saying that the 375 isn't the right rifle for you and I'd go back and look for that warthog with mine - a soft up the spout and four solids down and the PH with his 470. Just having a fun discussion and reliving my safari too.

JPK

PS; When you go, try to set up a tuskless cow elephant hunt on top of the rest of your quarry. Not terible price wise and incredibly exicting. I like it so much that I'm going back next year just for that.

MHC_TX

I'd love to shoot your guns and appreciate the offer . . . I'll see if I can't arrange such next time I visit the inlaws in Houston - if you're serious, please contact me at alterna2627@swtexas.net.

I'm not sure, however, why you reference DG as "not being in a pen or under a feeder" - I wouldn't expect them to be LOL. In fact, I've never shot anything in any sort of pen or even a high fenced enclosure - and although I'll shoot hogs all day long under a feeder, all of my mature deer have been nowhere near a feeder and I actually don't like to "hunt" in that sort of situation - I prefer spot-and-stalk. I expect, while hunting to patiently wait for an appropriate shot presentation, especially in thick brush (i.e. I'm hunting this year in dense S TX brush, and will try to break shoulders so as not to have to try to track the bucks/hogs into that mess).

On DG, I would think that taking care and time to make proper shot placement would be even more critical - in other words, it would not be appropriate to shoot at "difficult to see" vitals.

Of course, the bulk of this conversation is purely conjectural on my part. Although I'm currently saving/planning on a plains game hunt in 2007, the wife and I (she expects to hunt with me wherever I go) couldn't afford a DG (Buffalo) hunt any time soon.

As for elephant, I'm not interested in shooting one unless there is a population where you can shoot old bulls with long tusks . . . and then, I'm sure, the price would be that of a luxury automobile (or more).

Troy

Troy,

On the elephants, I didn't think I wanted to shoot any either. After reading some of the hunt reports - especially EricD's, and he used a 375 btw - I made an inquiry a mere ten days before my departure date. Turned out there was an opportunity available, so I tried it. It was fantastic. Rearanged my safari on the fly to be able to hunt another one. Tuskless cow hunting is my PH's favorite hunt. Second favorite is bull ele, third buff. I haven't done the tusker hunt but so far he's been right.

The tusker does cost a bunch to hunt if you're hunting in an area that has real potential to turn up a bull with very big ivory. I've been a fortunate guy and it looks like I'll get my chance in '07. You can hunt for a potential 50lber at a more reasonable number, about half. Remarkably, it cost less to hunt and shoot a tuskless than a buff.

On the buff, and really every animal, the number one thing that suprised me was how quickly one must shoot. Terry Carr has gone over it in his recomendations section in African Reports. I read it and thought I'd taken it to heart but really hadn't. The situation for me was typically so fluid that there was just a moment or two when the buff is clear of heavy brush or other buff in front or behind and provides a good shot oportunity. I hunted three buff. Two were out of herds and one was a dugga boy with just one other bull and it didn't seem to matter, quickness was required. I lost four or five shot oportunities on buff just the first morning trying for the perfect set up too long and being too deliberate. This was typical of all the animals I hunted; quick shot or no shot.

If you go on a plains game hunt in a brushy area you too will experience this. Terry's compendium of advice is pretty good FYI and you can learn to shoot fast and well.

I hope you get your plains game hunt and it goes well, hope also that that dg hunt comes sooner than expected. Roger Whittall's Humani Ranch in the roughly million acre Save Consevancy in Zimbabwe was crawling with plains game btw.

JPK

Troy,

The point I was trying to make is this: under hunting conditions there are a lot of shots that are at less than ideal conditions and under these conditions I don't want to be hunting with a "marginal" caliber (my words). These animals are tenacious to say the least, the hunts are expensive and if you draw blood you pay the trophy fee.

For example - sometimes you will "bump" a herd of buffalo 2 or 3 times before you are able to get a shot. You may have run several hundred yards carring your rifle and you are a little out of breath, the angle is quartering away and the vitals are in the shadow of a tree, but he is a big-un that you just spent $$$ and flew half way around the world for. I will and have taken that shot with a 416 and I probably wouldn't with a lesser caliber.

Bottom line is you should use whatever you are the most comfortable with, it's your nickel

I will send you a PM so you can contact me when you are over this way.