We had a discussion here recently about the scoring of game for record book and awards.

With Buffalo, an issue is the scoring system used by SCI and other puts pressure to shoot younger bulls that may be the breeding stock or not bread at all yet.

I was reading Boddington of Buffalo II again last night. He mentions that Rowland and Ward has changed the way that group and record score buffalo.

Rowland and Ward's minimum is now 64 inches...What I like about Rowland and Ward's system of using the outside width and now combining it with bosses is that an old bull with worn tips isn't penalized nor is the taking of a young bull with sharp horn tips rewarded!
Craig Boddington, Boddington of Buffalo II, pg. 98 (Safari Press, 2019).

He then juxtaposes the SCI system, and how it rewards killing younger bulls. Id. He also states he believes doubling the boss credited to Dr. Robertson to be a good idea. Id., 99.

Someone tell me Why SCI cannot adopt this new scoring Method of Either Roland and Ward or doubling the boss. We know nothing is perfect. You can have old bulls with small, worn off bosses. However, there appears "better" systems that advance hunting conservation ethic better, again not perfect, than the current SCI system.

That is what we are here for right? To work about what is best for conservation through a consumptive method that provides value to pay for animals to stay. Affecting net gain to the overall animal in the area we find them.

Have at it.

I always thought the difference between RW and SCI systems was that RW wanted to show what great trophies looked like, and record them for posterity.

SCI on the other hand, was started right from the beginning as a competition.

Basically that old, sick, human trait, MINE IS BIGGER THAN YOURS!

They have been a resounding success, because every Tom, Dick and Harry, the majority of them have no concept of what hunting actually is, competing for the SCI INNER CIRCLES OF IDIOTS!

At the same time, creating a whole bunch of crooked criminals pretending to be professional hunters to cater for this sick competition.

Many hunters are now looking for older specimens because the hunt is challenging. I rarely put a tape on a buff unless I am asked.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Many hunters are now looking for older specimens because the hunt is challenging. I rarely put a tape on a buff unless I am asked.

Thank goodness for that!

A hunt is supposed to be ENJOYED for what it is.

Being out in the wilds of nature, learning about it and sharing it with like minded friends.

NOT a stupid competition with brainless idiots whose sole purpose of going there is to brag about MINE IS BIGGER THAN YOURS!

Those who have more money than brains.

quote:

Many hunters are now looking for older specimens because the hunt is challenging.

And once a gnarly, ancient bull has been shot, the first question asked by the client is: "how old would he be"? ... and seeing I am not a vet, my answer is: "as old as me in buffalo years".

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Many hunters are now looking for older specimens because the hunt is challenging.

And once a gnarly, ancient bull has been shot, the first question asked by the client is: "how old would he be"? ... and seeing I am not a vet, my answer is: "as old as me in buffalo years".

Maybe Buff should be measured around the neck?

One suggestion is that the animal and the location it was taken be recorded, and the name of the hunter remain anonymous. It would take the stupid competition out of it.

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Ferrall:
One suggestion is that the animal and the location it was taken be recorded, and the name of the hunter remain anonymous. It would take the stupid competition out of it.

While I agree with you Tim, the majority would never go for that because ultimately it is all about "look at me". The whole awards program could not function with that approach and no one would be paying for their awards, etc. I just don't see that happening. No one is going to get their egos stroked if the scoring and record book listings did not list who killed it.

SCI’s system was an improvement on the old RW system.

I agree that doubling the boss size would be an improvement. It would admit change as to what folks think the salient desirability in a trophy is.

I kind of like having the scoring systems as it keeps some sort of objective statement as to what a good sized animal is.

On the other hand, I don’t remember what my best animals SCI scored. I do tend to remember what they would make as per the old RW system. It’s easier to recall that way.

As to the competition end, while it gets abused, everyone tends to do it… just what their end score is based on varies.

Take that Rigby old buffalo competition… then they added a bunch of unstated qualifiers to it and made it meaningless, just a giveaway to their choice of person.

Ive killed a lot of buffao and never scored one nor felt the need, and I will say this, you will know a trophy bull when you see one, its breath taking. I have one that everybody but me has put the tape to and I told them not to tell me, I know he was boss hog of that Tanzania concession, if Im wrong, I sure don't want to know it!!

what I do find disgusting is some hunter showing evryone his 47 inch bull that has a soft hairy boss that I could shave with my pocket knife, and even worse is the the pH that allowed it to happen and hugged and praised the hunter. they are both guilty of ruining the gene pool of that herd..

Ive seen many hunters who carry a tape in their pocket and are livid about the score, and its not a bad thing, its a good thing for a number of reasons, but its not a requirement..

Ok Im off my soap box for today...

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
SCI’s system was an improvement on the old RW system.

I agree that doubling the boss size would be an improvement. It would admit change as to what folks think the salient desirability in a trophy is.

I kind of like having the scoring systems as it keeps some sort of objective statement as to what a good sized animal is.

On the other hand, I don’t remember what my best animals SCI scored. I do tend to remember what they would make as per the old RW system. It’s easier to recall that way.

As to the competition end, while it gets abused, everyone tends to do it… just what their end score is based on varies.

Take that Rigby old buffalo competition… then they added a bunch of unstated qualifiers to it and made it meaningless, just a giveaway to their choice of person.

However, RW is using a new system that does not reward killing younger, sharp point bulls. This system appears very objective.

The question is why not adopt the New RW system or Dr. Robertson’s doubling the boss measure?

Doubling the boss may be not objective enough. However, the new RW seems very objective why to measure.

If I understand it correctly, RW new system still requires width.

A big breeding age bull will score the same as a post breeding age bull.

Like I said, I think doubling the boss is a good idea, as it gets the older bulls more credit.

But it’s the individual hunter and his ethics and desire that is going to make any system work.

I wouldn’t put it past SCI to change to doubling the boss measurement- they already include bosses in their score… but I suspect a lot of the high ranking buffalo shooters would whine as someone else would go over them score wise.

I doubt SCI will change scoring Dr. Robertson proposed doubling the Boss as early as 2008.

I like either the new RW system or doubling the boss. Actually, I would combine the RW new system with doubling the boss.

RW includes both boss circumference measurement. Other than people would complain of being leap frogged, I have not heard an argument for keeping the SCI system in place. That is antithesis to what hunting through conservation is said to be.

I'm against measuring period, not just buffalo. I'd always resisted it, but I shot a really nice Masai bushbuck that the PH was convinced would make the top 10, so I consented to have him measured. He missed top 10 by a fraction of an inch and for a moment I was disappointed. Then I realized how ridiculous that was. I was delighted with the animal when I shot it and it's a fine animal.
It will live on my wall for the rest of my life. Who cares if it's top 10 or makes the book. I feel foolish for momentarily being disappointed because he wouldn't be high in the "book". He was never submitted by the way and I'll never measure another animal.

I'll take any mature buffalo and consider it a trophy. Yeah, I'd like one over 45" or with 18" bosses, but that's just a bonus. One of the things on my wish list is a totally smooth bossed old bull. I have a couple that are close, but not totally smooth.

Age over score. Always.

I agree with those who State age or no taping of animals. However, we know this scoring is going to happen in the majority. It should be done in promotion of a mature animal as best we can.

It is clear SCI is not doing that. Let us do better.

Measuring a trophy for scientific or personal reasons is fine.

Making hunting a competition is bloody awful!

Tells you that those involved are nothing but low life LOOK AT ME sort of people!

I have found that these people lack certain character.

Those of us who have been hunting all our lives, know that finding a certain trophy boils to pure luck.

Those who have so many top trophies in the SCI book, look at the PH who gave them these.

It is uncanny that certain names keep cropping up.

There is way in tarnation a specific PH can actually find these trophies in the wild!

Captured?
Bought?

And I bet an incredible number of them were obtained by illegal means.

I did a bit of research on this a while back, and certain names kept coming up.

It wasn’t very pretty.

In fact, it was utterly disgusting.

Scoring Cape buffalo as it has been done is antithetical to everything right and proper about hunting Cape buffalo.

Immature bulls have been elevated to places they don't belong.

No matter how "big" they may be according to the scoring rules, immature bulls should be absolutely ineligible for the record book.

Sometimes I think we should throw the damned record book away when it comes to Cape buffalo.

Buffalo definitely are different. I made a mistake and shot a soft bossed bull before I knew better. I know now. I'm going back next year and will have four buffalo on ticket, but they're mostly for lion bait. I try to save one for just a nice buffalo, but it might not work.

The only score that counts is how it looks to you, the hunter.

Scoring for a prize in a competition should be left the stupid idiots who fill the SCI Record Book Of Stupid Circles!

How the hell can they actually look at themselves in the mirror!

Self serving SICKNESS is what they suffer from!

And the so called PHs who provide them with these trophies are nothing but common wildlife criminals!

Damn, if we can’t agree on a measuring system, how are outfitters going to figure out pricing for different scores/inches?

That’s really going to toss a wrench in the works. Should there be different columns for pricing and scores per method?

I absolutely refuse to hunt anything or anywhere where they have a graduated prices for size!

A buffalo, or anything for that matter, should cost x amount.

Regardless of size.

Once different prices are brought in for different inches, they can bloody well keep it!

That is actually how so many of the top SCI trophies came.

Crooked PHs buy them after they have been captured.

They get on the phone to some non hunter with a desire to be in a stupid SCI Circle.

He jumps on the plain, goes to a farm where the animal is kept in an enclosure a few feet square.

Shoots it, and heads home.

A few months later, the same crooked PH who provided the animal, is a certified SCI measurer!

Honestly, one cannot make this up!

Enters the incredible, one of kind, so hard to get trophy, in the book.

Both the stupid, selfish zombie, and his PH, get recognized by SCI as a great team!

The stinking shame of it is never let out.

Agree that I would never hunt anywhere that had a graduated trophy fee based on "size" of the trophy.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Agree that I would never hunt anywhere that had a graduated trophy fee based on "size" of the trophy.

And I bet you are not the sort of person who would fly off to shoot a captured buffalo and kept under lock and key fir you, and pay $100,000 for the pleasure!

And enter it in the SCI RECORD BOOK as a fantastic, hard fought, trophy.

This is actually worse than having Mark Sullivan shoot your buffalo.

In that case, at least you get the chance to wound it first!

Sayeed,

You are correct. When it comes to fences -- I'm a big fan of a real good one at the Border, and around my property to keep folks out, -- but not so much to keep 'game animals' in where they can be shot. And I say shot, not hunted. Hard to "hunt" in a fence.

Saeed, sorry for the extra "y". Laptop sensitive keyboard. But I think the point is the "book" was a great idea when it's intention was to allow hunters to determine the areas that had the best trophy potential. Now, it is a competition. And that seems wrong to me. I'm a member of DSC and I'm pretty sure, but not positive that my SCI membership has lapsed. One year, can't remember which, they had a big presentation at one of the dinners about a teenaged girl who had shot the "Big Five". She was an incredible young lady, but what young man could possibly compete with her upbringing?

To me, the "competition" should be between you and the animal, not the rest of the world or the size of the animal, as long as it's fully mature.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Saeed, sorry for the extra "y". Laptop sensitive keyboard. But I think the point is the "book" was a great idea when it's intention was to allow hunters to determine the areas that had the best trophy potential. Now, it is a competition. And that seems wrong to me. I'm a member of DSC and I'm pretty sure, but not positive that my SCI membership has lapsed. One year, can't remember which, they had a big presentation at one of the dinners about a teenaged girl who had shot the "Big Five". She was an incredible young lady, but what young man could possibly compete with her upbringing?

To me, the "competition" should be between you and the animal, not the rest of the world or the size of the animal, as long as it's fully mature.

Ah but in comes SCI with their competitions.

Specifically designed for those most stupid of idiots, who like to brag about MINE IS BIGGER THAN YOURS.

Th ones who have absolutely no idea what hunting is.

And in come crooks PHs who capture animals in one place, and transport it to another for some idiot to kill, and claim it is from somewhere else!

You see, once the rot starts, there is no end.

There is a court case going on between two of these glorious crooks.

One is a trophy collector, never a hunter, called Angus Murray.

And the criminal PH who has been supplying these captured animals for all sort of idiots in the SCI Record book - look at the "trophies" entered under his name.

Jason Stone!

Murray claims he has sold him an animal, which he had measured, and the measurements have been inflated!

I love that word INFLATED.

It fits those involved in this sick competition, it is not just their egos that are inflated!

SCI is NOT doing anything to stop this.

They are actively engaged in encouraging this shameful way of entering "trophies" .

I can guarantee you Jason Stone is NOT the only crooked PH who has been supplying the LOOK AT ME, MINE IS BIGGER THAN YOURS, non hunting idiots, so they can have their names in a sick record book.

I think I'll just go hunting. Next year, lion is on top of the ticket, will probably shoot a hippo for bait, hopefully on land like last year, four buffalo, hopefully will be able to hunt one buffalo seriously for a good buffalo and not just bait, and roan, kudu and grysbok are also on top of the list. The list gets shorter every year, but there are always buffalo.

The SCI Circles Idiots are the hunting version of the KARDASHIANS!

Low life.

Their sole purpose in life is to live for others, and impress them!

The Kardashians are using their arses.

The SCI zombies using their pockets!

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
I think I'll just go hunting. Next year, lion is on top of the ticket, will probably shoot a hippo for bait, hopefully on land like last year, four buffalo, hopefully will be able to hunt one buffalo seriously for a good buffalo and not just bait, and roan, kudu and grysbok are also on top of the list. The list gets shorter every year, but there are always buffalo.

Mate you have to go and hunt where the Roan are!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Saeed, sorry for the extra "y". Laptop sensitive keyboard. But I think the point is the "book" was a great idea when it's intention was to allow hunters to determine the areas that had the best trophy potential. Now, it is a competition. And that seems wrong to me. I'm a member of DSC and I'm pretty sure, but not positive that my SCI membership has lapsed. One year, can't remember which, they had a big presentation at one of the dinners about a teenaged girl who had shot the "Big Five". She was an incredible young lady, but what young man could possibly compete with her upbringing?

To me, the "competition" should be between you and the animal, not the rest of the world or the size of the animal, as long as it's fully mature.

Ah but in comes SCI with their competitions.

Specifically designed for those most stupid of idiots, who like to brag about MINE IS BIGGER THAN YOURS.

Th ones who have absolutely no idea what hunting is.

And in come crooks PHs who capture animals in one place, and transport it to another for some idiot to kill, and claim it is from somewhere else!

You see, once the rot starts, there is no end.

There is a court case going on between two of these glorious crooks.

One is a trophy collector, never a hunter, called Angus Murray.

And the criminal PH who has been supplying these captured animals for all sort of idiots in the SCI Record book - look at the "trophies" entered under his name.

Jason Stone!

Murray claims he has sold him an animal, which he had measured, and the measurements have been inflated!

I love that word INFLATED.

It fits those involved in this sick competition, it is not just their egos that are inflated!

SCI is NOT doing anything to stop this.

They are actively engaged in encouraging this shameful way of entering "trophies" .

I can guarantee you Jason Stone is NOT the only crooked PH who has been supplying the LOOK AT ME, MINE IS BIGGER THAN YOURS, non hunting idiots, so they can have their names in a sick record book.

I have been following that sham. I believe one of the so called record trophies had to go back to a taxidermist for repair and the taxidermist doubted the measurement and put a tape on it to discover it fell well short of the recorded JS measurement.

Angus then had all his trophies remeasured only to find they were grossly inflated. He was deflated I presume as he initiated a $2m lawsuit against the so called SCI master measurer.

We could score a Buffalo simply out of the number 10.



For instance, this is a 1.

And in my book, this would be a 10.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Saeed, sorry for the extra "y". Laptop sensitive keyboard. But I think the point is the "book" was a great idea when it's intention was to allow hunters to determine the areas that had the best trophy potential. Now, it is a competition. And that seems wrong to me. I'm a member of DSC and I'm pretty sure, but not positive that my SCI membership has lapsed. One year, can't remember which, they had a big presentation at one of the dinners about a teenaged girl who had shot the "Big Five". She was an incredible young lady, but what young man could possibly compete with her upbringing?

To me, the "competition" should be between you and the animal, not the rest of the world or the size of the animal, as long as it's fully mature.

Ah but in comes SCI with their competitions.

Specifically designed for those most stupid of idiots, who like to brag about MINE IS BIGGER THAN YOURS.

Th ones who have absolutely no idea what hunting is.

And in come crooks PHs who capture animals in one place, and transport it to another for some idiot to kill, and claim it is from somewhere else!

You see, once the rot starts, there is no end.

There is a court case going on between two of these glorious crooks.

One is a trophy collector, never a hunter, called Angus Murray.

And the criminal PH who has been supplying these captured animals for all sort of idiots in the SCI Record book - look at the "trophies" entered under his name.

Jason Stone!

Murray claims he has sold him an animal, which he had measured, and the measurements have been inflated!

I love that word INFLATED.

It fits those involved in this sick competition, it is not just their egos that are inflated!

SCI is NOT doing anything to stop this.

They are actively engaged in encouraging this shameful way of entering "trophies" .

I can guarantee you Jason Stone is NOT the only crooked PH who has been supplying the LOOK AT ME, MINE IS BIGGER THAN YOURS, non hunting idiots, so they can have their names in a sick record book.

I have been following that sham. I believe one of the so called record trophies had to go back to a taxidermist for repair and the taxidermist doubted the measurement and put a tape on it to discover it fell well short of the recorded JS measurement.

Angus then had all his trophies remeasured only to find they were grossly inflated. He was deflated I presume as he initiated a $2m lawsuit against the so called SCI master measurer.

The SCI MASTER MEASURER was the same crooked idiot masquerading as PH, Jason Stone.

He has a horrible reputation in South Africa as being one of the most obnoxious, criminal minded individual in the hunting industry!

His website was covered from end to end with record book animals he has supplied to selfish non hunters who wanted their names in the book!

Somehow all these seem to have conveniently been removed!

You will like this one Saeed. We were on the sticks pointing at this Buff and my client was asking all sorts of questions about how this Buff would measure for SCI! My apprentice took the photo whilst I was pressing the hunter to shoot. It eventually got our wind and that was the last we saw of him. Whilst it is a younger but mature buff it is not the sort of buff you question in the field.

I never argue with my PH!

Sometimes it turns out to be quite funny.

Driving one afternoon, they saw an animal, which I assumed was a zebra, because I heard the Z part.

Of we jumped off the truck, ran like mad chasing it.

Eventually Alan puts the stick up, and all I could see was a sable bull!

I fired.

Alan says I should have waited till he has had a look at its horns!

I laughed!

And said I thought we were chasing a zebra!

But after all this time, I assumed whatever it is, it is good enough to shoot!

As you can imagine, everyone was laughing.

The trackers were joking among them.

Saying “stick up. Saeedi shoots”

quote:

I kind of like having the scoring systems as it keeps some sort of objective statement as to what a good sized animal is.

What Doctor Butler said. To me the score is personal and not a bragging point. There is a difference between "Mine is bigger than yours" and "look at this spectacular specimen". You can be very happy with a trophy you have taken but that doesn't mean you are gloating because you've taken something larger than others have.

Mark

It is all about the hunt. Did you hunt well and shoot a good Buffalo? Did you come away from the safari and say that was money well spent?

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Ferrall:
One suggestion is that the animal and the location it was taken be recorded, and the name of the hunter remain anonymous. It would take the stupid competition out of it.

That is now possible with the SCI record book as I understand it.

Let me first say that I am against the awards. I think they are a problem. I ask myself who the real culprit is in this situation. Is it SCI who uses this as a fund-raising activity? Is it the member who this type of thing appeals to?

I am sure I have many many animals that qualify for the record book. Since 1991, I have not registered any. I am sure I qualify for many of the awards, but I have not and never will apply for any. That is my choice. Similarly, others choose to get the awards which by the way, the member pays for.

I do like to know how wide my buffalo are. I also like to know the boss size. I never care for the score. I just like to know.

Personally, out of the many buffalo that I have shot, my favorite, most memorable was an imminently average 37-38 incher. Why? Because of the effort it took to get the bull and everything that happened in the hunt. I am sure he scores nowhere near the biggest I have ever shot.

My least memorable? No doubt the biggest I have ever shot. There was not much of a challenge in that hunt. I saw him not 5 minutes out of camp the first day of the hunt.

It is all about what you value most. Some (like me) value the experience. Some value the score and the record book. I don't.

Larry, totally agree.