I've sold some of my existing "inventory" guns...isn't that ONE of the reasons we buy them to begin with?..and now am looking hard at obtaining a double rifle. I am squarely blaming some of you double gun nuts on these forums for my relentless urge. My question: I am, by no means, able to buy anything beyond the $9000 (ok, give or take a little) mark....soooo, what do you gents think of the Searcy in 450/400 3", the Krieghoff Classic in 500/416, or the Merkel in 470? This will not just be used to drool on as my Safari for next year is rapidly becoming a reality. I really like the 450/400 and the 500/416 calibers, but all thoughts are appreciated. THANKS! Gary.

Hey GarBy,
You've done it now! Seems like once that double rifle bug bites it causes an itch that DEMANDS scratching! I have a Searcy 470 but if Butch would've been making the 450-400 when I ordered mine, then that's what I'd have gotten. The 500/416 is the double equivalent of the 416 Rigby--which is to say it is a good choice! I wish you well on your quest!
Good Hunting,

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Andy Cooper

I shoot the 450-400-3" and dearly love mine... but if I ever get another double it will be a Searcy in 500/416 cal. I think I like the idea of that caliber in a double rifle but I am not a fan of the Kriegoff rifles..

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Any of those would do nicely. Which one can you get the best deal on?

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RAB

Gary,
I am a Merkel dealer, and have a new 140-2.1 .470 availabel at a REAL bargain price. Contact me my email if interested.
Steve

450/400 3 inch sounds great to me!
I'd also vote for the 500/416.

Enjoy the one you order! Heck it's your money, get what you want! That's the best double rifle made, the one you get!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

I like the mid bore doubles, I know the folks at Kreighoff really well, 500/416 is a spendid round

GarBy,The choice depends on what you are likely to use the rifle for MOST OF THE TIME!

I understand you will be going to Africa, and in that case anything above a 375 H&H flanged will do. But if you think you might use the rifle more than 50% of the time in North America, then there are a couple of good choices that make better sence than some others.

If "I" were going to use the rifle mostly in North America, the choice would be between three chamberings. These chamberings would be the 9.3X74R on the bottom, the 450/400 3" on the top, and the medium would be a 375 H&H flanged. The 9.3X74R would be perfect for NA, while not being my first choice for the African Buffalo, or Lion, for those two, the bottom choice would be a 375 H&H flanged, and the top choice would be the 450/400 3".

The 450/400 3" is a good choice if it will be used over 50% of the time in Africa, and less so in NA. The 450/400 3" will handle anything you want to hunt any place,and is a very handy chambering for the large bears, moose, and Elk in the USA. The 500/416K is a real killer in a good double rifle, and is a dia that has plenty of bullets to choose from, but it is less useful in NA and, IMO, will kill no better than the 450/400 3". Like Ray, if I were going to buy a new double rifle to use in most places I would be hunting, then it would be a 450/400 3", in a B. Searcy, but if the 500/416 is your dream it would also be in a Searcy rifle.

Now,if you really want a rifle for Cape Buffalo, Elephant, and will only punch paper here, then the bargain is the Merkel 470NE, but eventhough the price is right on the Merkel, if you are willing to spend a little more, and don't mind a short wait (7 to 8 months)then the Searcy 470, or 500/416, would make sence!

Like any other rifle the "all around" double rifle does not exist, so you have to decide where you will use the rifle most. Will it be a specialized rifle you use only in a tight sittuation,in which case I would go 450/400 UP, or do you want a rifle you can use for deer, black bear, brown bear,moose, and elk, but still do the job on Cape buffalo, and Lion with proper loads, then IMO, there are only two choices, #1 would be the 450/400 3", and #2 would be a really fine example of a double chambered for 375 H&H flanged.

Also like Ray, I'm not thrilled about the cocking system of the Krieghoff, but if you will have only "ONE" double rifle it will be no draw back, since you will not be useing two different systems for operateing a rifle designed to get you out of a tight spot.

All this is a long winded way of saying "it's your money, and your choice" but the above are simply a list of things you may not have thought of, that are personal opinion, nothing more. Considering the price of this information, one can use it, or throw it away, also, your choice!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

let me know if you find a cure or at least bug repellant.

LV Eric,

there is no effective repelant! The only known cure is to get one! That however is probably only temporary in some cases. You want another!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

Thanks all for your responses. I have e-mailed both Steve about his offer and Butch about his availibility of the 450/400. I will let you know of the results. Thanks, again. This double bug is worst than a stubborn tick!! Gary.

I know where there is a Heym .470 for sale. Send me an e-mail if your are interested.

If you really want to discuss the topic with a guy that knows his stuff, I'd call George Caswell at Champlin Firearms in Enid, OK. (580-237-7388). I own a William Douglass in 470, just traded for it this weekend at a show. While I was there, I had a chance to look at a lot of doubles (about 20) and the things I saw were pretty eye opening, ESPECIALLY about the Merkels. According to Caswell, the Merkel is built on a 20 ga. frame, and they just don't hold up. I looked at a Rogue River boxlock that was clearly a Merkel action, the owner said it had about 50 rounds a side through it, and it was CLEARLY off the face. So, if you are going to cough up the huge money to get one of these boomers (my fifth double) it really is better to do your homework and talk to the guys who know this stuff. Call some of the bigger named gunsmiths and ask them which ones hold up and which ones don't- they can tell you the straight stuff. I have never had the opportunity to examine a Butch Search double, but I know that the PH I hunted with in Africa now uses one. Caswell says that the best bang for the buck is the Chapuis- and they do hold up. He sells them new for about $8900, to your dimensions. Hershell Chaddick (Chaddicks LTD) in Terrell, Texas has 3 on his web site, a used one for $8500 asking, in 470.

qw1437,

I have a Merkel 470 that has about 9 boxes of ammo through it and no problem with it being loose or off face. A friend also has one in 470 with no problems. I wonder if it is the Merkel made in 416 that is off face. Do you know the caliber of the guns Caswell was refering to.

BigB

I suspect the Merkels that shoot off the face (some have I understand) are in calibers 416 Rigby and 375 H&H, these calibers are not ment for double rifles IMHO.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

qw1437,
Kind of BOGUS of you calling a Rogue River double a Merkel and saying that it is off face after fifty rounds.

Even though Ray is right about the 416 Rigby, 375 H&H and other cartridges like 458 WinMag being bad ideas in any double, it has been stated by the Merkel factory that they tested even their high pressure rimless models for 500 rounds durability on face.

One could shoot any double off face with one round of an excessive handload concoction. Do you know the true history of the Rogue River double that was so quickly messed up? And I emphasize again that it was most certainly not a Merkel, by your description alone.

Another BOGUS item in your post: The Merkel 140-A/2.0/2.1 models are chopper lump or demi-block barreled actions that cannot possibly be made from a 20 guage mono-block.

The lock mechanisms of all Anson&Deeley box lock double rifles and shotguns are basically the same. If you are saying that the lock mechanisms of the Merkel are of Merkel shotgun quality, then that is high praise. And the Merkel 140's have cocking indicators, could this be the similarity with the shotguns you think you have noticed? How many other double rifles have cocking indicators on their action sides?

I think some moron is misguiding you to protect his own commercial interests.

A Merkel 470 NE SXS will probably last as long or longer than any make, and is more durable and stronger than any pre-WWII double, of any make.

Oh yeah, glad the system is back up.

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RAB

[This message has been edited by DaggaRon (edited 05-22-2002).]

Ray,
About Merkels shooting off face, are you sure of your facts? Sounds like you are just guessing regarding the fact that Merkels are chambered for some rimless high pressure cartridges, as are a few other makes. Surely you wouldn't be trying to facilitate any BOGUS statements above! The fact that Merkels exist in any high pressure chamberings supports the fact that they are strong. I recommend against any rimless cartridge for double rifles, especially due to the complication of extraction mechanisms by such.

Even the finest, strongest, most-modern-in-materials double can be shot off face by one abusive cartridge, with one pull of a trigger.

You know, having learned much here, thank you, and in several decades of gun enthusiast activities, as well as being very familiar with my own Merkel 470 NE double, I am very satisfied that the Merkel 140 is ... THE STRONGEST 470 NE SXS DOUBLE ... on the market today. I beg anyone to refute that.

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RAB

qw1437,
Have you anything more to say?

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RAB

DaggaRon,

I think that the information he has given us was from George Caswell at Champlin. I know that George and JJ are not big Merkel fans.

Perhaps George could shed some light on the subject?

Rusty
We band of brothers.

Merkel states, that they tested their 9.3x74R with 5000 rounds, and had hardly wear. This sounds fine. For their 470, they tested for 500 rounds, which is enough for hunting, not so for handloading. I told them so, too.

Of course high pressure rounds will take their poll. Why don�t you ask them personally, and show us the results?

http://www.merkel-waffen.de/default.html

Hermann

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Hermann,
I have emailed them. I am on call/working during the next 36 hours. If I get a reply/can get to email, I shall, and report back. I thought this information had been presented here before by you. Thanks.

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RAB

Rusty,
George, eh? My, my, my ...

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RAB

DaggaRon,

My new goal is to hunt so many times for big game that my Merkel shoots off face. Now all I have to do is figure out where to get the money.

BigB

The Rougle River rifle I looked at at the Denver show the weekend of the 18th was off the face, period. The owner, who knew nothing about the gun, or double rifles in general, had obtained the gun through some sort of sporting goods buyout and was just trying to unload it. He had some accompanying documentation that said the thing had 50 rounds a side through it. Thats all I can offer. As far as the Rogue River being a Merkel, Caswell told me they were made on a Merkel action, and in examining one that was close by, it was easy to see why. The similarities are significant, with the exception of the cocking indicators, which are lacking on the Rogue River. George told me that the Merkels he has seen with trouble have been largely the 416's, and relayed a few stories that you can get from him if you want. I am certainly no expert in this field, but I certainly know when a gun is off the face, and certainly can tell when two actions appear to have been made, if not by the same manufacturer, then under license, one from the other. You'd have thought I'd called someones wife ugly or something- touchy, touchy!!

DaggaRon-
Lets see if I understand this correctly...

You say that "the fact that they (Merkel double rifles) exist in such high pressure chamberings supports their strength" yet in the same breath you "recommend against rimless chamberings" due to extraction complications. So, the fact that Merkel makes high pressure chamberings, in your mind, fully supports their strength, but you also think that they are in error by making them. Everyone's an expert, I guess. According to your "logic", Merkel makes the strongest gun on the planet, that no one should use. And you call me bogus. I have looked at a number of Merkel doubles, and was impressed with both the balance and the quality of the wood to metal fit. I am simply passing on what I was told and shown by Caswell. As far as how well they hold up, from what I have read here the 470's hold up fine- have yet to hear from someone with another chambering.

BigB,
That sounds like the plan. I would like to die trying to wear out my Merkel 470 NE too. I will have to go wild boar and sika buck busting with mine next, until I can get back to the cape buffalo, and maybe an elephant some day. Ah well, its practice, and fun.

Our guns will out last their owners.

No other gun for so little money offers such strength: chopper lump (demi-block) barrels with Purdey double under bolts, Greener cross bolt third fastener, and properly executed side clips. It has more than a third fastener. I don't know of any 10K or less gun that is built as well, and I don't know of any gun that is superior in strength PERIOD.

I think we have made a wise selection in the 470 NE Merkel 140.

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RAB

q,
I stand by what I said.

The paradoxical aspects come about due to marketing gimmickery, catering to a niche of idiots who may never even use their double. Even Holland and Holland has been guilty of the idiocy of chambering their Royal in 458 Winchester Magnum, which quickly comes to ruin.

Beware the double rifle salesman. Get the opinion of someone who does not stand to gain financially from your purchase. Double rifle salesmen may be looking for the greater fool than themselves, or kissing a hypothetical George's ass.

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RAB

"Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned!"

George Caswell and J.J. Perodeau have likely forgot more about double rifles of ANY make than most of us on this forum put together.
Champlin Arms has sold and worked on literally hundreds of double rifles over the years. They've seen them all, shot them all and probably worked on them all at one time or another. What there is about a Merkel that doesn't impress them would be interesting to hear.

[This message has been edited by John S (edited 05-24-2002).]

John S, as in "Sissy": Surely you can take a joke too.

Now the truth:
What they don't like about a Merkel mostly has to do with their pocketbooks and the fact that GSI in Alabama is the exclusive importer. Nothing they can offer can touch a new Merkel 470 NE in value and quality for the money. It is a real deal.

I could scorn another double that will go unmentioned, but I have no asses to kiss or kick. Just the facts, no innuendo please.

Hopefully old George will apply himself here.

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RAB

Not sure why the tone is getting confrontational, so here is what I hope is taken as a constructive observation. I too am buying a double rifle and after talking to quite a few folks about buying a Merkel, Krieghoff, Chapuis, Searcy, Heym, or an old English double, I was consistently referred to George Caswell. These references included a hunter with 24 buffalo to his credit, a Zimbabwean PH, a South African PH, a friend who took the big 5 on film, and a couple more. I offer this to stress that none of these guys have any stake in what I bought or through whom. All had nothing but good to say about George.

I really liked an old 475 Jeffrey, but it got sold before I could buy it. I REALLY liked an old H&H Royal 465, but it was well beyond my price range. Same with a Rigby and a Westley Richards. I looked very hard at the Krieghoff and Merkel, but finally landed on buying a Chapuis. Still being made for me as I write this. I went through Champlin Arms to do this, and believe I was treated fairly and well.

My point? George knows more about this stuff than anyone I know, and if he says the Merkel is built a bit light,I'd have to take him seriously. At the very least, I would do additional checking before spending money I couldn't afford to spend again. And whether I agreed with him or not, he certainly earned my respect.

In all this process, I came to

H T,
Oh, so now the Merkel is a bit light, eh?

At 10.7 lbs empty, I would not want it any heavier.

This exchange is not confrontational. It is correctional of Bogus Statements: BS.

Please, no more osculation of derrieres! There are already too many noses painted brown with BS around here already!

Thanks for any education or entertainment y'all can send my way.

Where's George? Out trying to sell another double rifle of course. Would that be a Chapuis?

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RAB

I think the best person to ask is the PH you will be hunting with as he does not have a profit to be made in the rifle you chose. All salesman think what they sell is best. A PH just wants you to have something reliable and something that shoots. The one I hunted with told me the Merkel was fine and buy it in 470. So I did, and he was right. Luckily I get to try it again this year for buffalo and maybe something else.

DaggaRon,

You know I shot a meat type hog of about 170 pounds last winter with the 470 and TB softs. It was a good heart lung shot that I thought would stop the hog in its tracks. Yet it managed to go about 30 yards. Damage was more than I expected as I did not expect the 470 to expand much. You will have fun with the 470 on hogs.

After Halloween six of us always have a Northern Wisconsin grouse hunt and pumpkin shoot. Pumpkins are cheap after halloween. Make a small hole in the top fill them with water go back 50 - 75 yards and blast away. Needless to say all the guys chose a Merkel 470 to blast away at the pumkins with. We had 2 of them with us. To a man they all thought the Merkel was quick handling, and on both paper and pumpkins easy to shoot and accurate. Of course the 470 does a good job blowing up the pumpkins.

Moral of the story is all the guns mentioned in this thread are good. Just make sure you take it out and use it. I imagine many doubles never get shot enough to ever deternine if they will shoot off face.

BigB

RAB-
I have no axe to grind here, nor do I get any consideration from Champlin's. You're free to use whatever brand of double rifle you like. If a person likes their rifles, hey I'm all for him!
I've already learned my lessons and been down that road, I got smart and sold mine!
Double rifle, that is. And no, it wasn't a Merkel.

[This message has been edited by John S (edited 05-24-2002).]

DaggaRon-
I fully support what you have said about chambering of doubles, rimless vs.rimmed. Engineers who build the things are always overruled by marketing people who say "this is what will bring in the money". Once again, the old book is correct, money being the root of wrong decisions. The Merkel 140's I have seen are advertised in the mid 6k to low 7 range, is that correct? And I would not want a 470 any lighter than 10 lbs, either- having blown out my right AC joint in my sholder- gotta watch the recoil a bit. Which reminds me- does anyone have any experience at how the addition of a mercury reducer effects the regulation of a double? I am aware that changes of any signifigance can alter the way it shoots, but I wonder if the addition of the pound or so of weight is enough to cause a problem.

Snowing here in Denver- springtime in the Rockies!!

Well gentelmen, I tried to stay away from the contravercy, concerning the Merkel, but it seems I can't, WEAK you know! Or maybe it is my Irish heritage not letting me stay out of a fight!

I think Daggaron is right about takeing the reccomendation with a grain of salt, when the man, downing a product, has something to sell, that competes with it! I'm not saying the man would lie, but it would seem to me, he would have something to gain by turning you away from his competition. I mean lets be real about this!

He is also right about the rimless cartridges not being right in double rifles, and that doesn't have anything to do with strength, but ejection, and problematic rimless ejectors. On the other hand I don't think the Belted rimless 375 H&H, or the rimless 416 Rigby are proper for the double rifle because of pressure as well as the extraction/ejection problems. I think what Daggaron is saying here is, if it has been built strong enough for these two, it is more than strong enough for the proper cartridges. The 375H&H flanged is about as high pressure as I would put in the Merkel, but that goes for all other brands as well. The 470 NE is a very low pressure round,as are all the old rimmed, or flanged cartridges designed for doubles and are OK as well.

NOW! I don't, for one minute, think the merkel is the strongest double rifle built today, nor do I think it is the weakest. I don't think anyone here will ever ware out a Merkel 470NE, so that is a non issue. IMO, the strongest conventual double rifle made today is a Heym, and Almost any of the modern made double rifles are far stronger than the doubles made at the turn of the 20th century, and that includes the highly recconizable "NAMES"! The fact still remains, the break top double rifle is not suited to pressures higher than 35, to 38,000 psi. unless it is a very small cartridge in a very large double.

One must use his head when dealing with double rifles! They are not only expensive, even for the lowest priced ones, but are little stronger than they were in 1890. At that time the highest pressure of any cartridge was in the neighborhood of 35,000 psi, so anything could be chambered in a good double rifle.

I think the double rifles made today are made very well, and simply because the marketing boys ask for the wrong cartridge in the new doubles, that doesn't mean a buyer with brains will buy them. Also that fact doesn't mean a maker who chambers their rifle in an inappropreate chambering, automatically has a rifle that is stronger than a maker who doesn't!

Likeing, or dislikeing a particular brand, is a personal thing, and the fact that one thinks his brand is better than a brand he doesn't like, certainly does not make it so!

I own several "NAME" double rifles, and I own some with some obscure brands, and in that mix is a Merkel. Haveing said all that, I believe the Merkel to be better made, and stronger than some of the "NAMES" I own. But just like everyone here I may be wrong, but I aint selling NUTHIN!

------------------
..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 05-25-2002).]

Very well said-

Confidence in your own choice being about 90% of the battle, I'd think.

From an observer point of view it seems like George Caswell is as qualified as anyone to judge doubles. Personally, I think the handling qualities of the Merkel resemble that of a oak fence post.

Just to keep things stirred up!

Will

qw1437,
Prices of Merkels have gone up $1,000 US in the last six months, by the listed retail prices.

The basic 140-1 in calibers up to 9.3x74R is $6,695, but does include ejectors and the fitted luggage case.

The basic 140-2 in 470 NE is now $9,495 retail, extractor/non-ejector with case.

The 140-2.1, with a bit of extra engraving is $10,595.

The 160-2.1 sidelock is $24,995.

These retail prices can be haggled down by more than $1,000 if the dealer really wants to sell some guns.

When I bought mine new, it listed for $8,495. I paid $7,200 plus shipping charges and sales tax.

Will,
Thanks for keeping the pot stirred. I am sorry that you are so clumsy with a Merkel. Mine handles like a skeet gun. If you practice more, you might get the muscular development to do even better with your fly weight Heym.

MacD37,
Thanks for the post above. Good sense. I just don't understand the part about the Heym 88B Safari being the strongest gun on the market today.

I think the Heym is a great gun, and would really have preferred the articulated front trigger and ejectors that come standard on it at a current retail price of $11,750, for the basic model in 300 WinMag through 500 NE .

The advertized weight of the gun is 9.9 pounds but it doesn't say what caliber. This is a boxlock with double Purdey under bolting and Greener crossbolt like the Merkel, no side clips on the Heym, but there are on the Merkel. Cocking indicators are on the tang of the Heym, on the action sides with the Merkel.

Since Will swings the Heym better than the Merkel, I guess that the Heym in 470 NE probably is lighter than the Merkel in 470 NE. Nice to know. Maybe Will could tell us how much his Heym weighs?

Now you got me wanting a Heym in 500 NE! The 88B Safari can be converted to sidelock for only $3,450 extra. That's only $15,200.

The 88B Safari Classic boxlock is $13,300 (300 WinMag through 500 NE). This can be had with sidelock action for $17,400.

And an 88B Safari boxlock in 577 NE is only $28,575 while the 600 NE is just $32,500.

Ah, well, beggars can't be choosers. I better stick with the Merkel, which, even though less expensive and lacking some of the noncritical refinements of the Heym, I still think is stronger than the Heym, unless Mac can elucidate why I am wrong.

[ 05-26-2002, 05:04: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

RAB:

My Heym 470 wieghs in at 9.9 pounds.

The last I heard most folks were using their Merkels for boat anchors

Will