Talking about the good old H-Report.... I wish they would let us outfitters post negative reports about clients who dont pay their bills, welch on their agreements or generally make nusiances of themselves.... but apparently they wont...

It always seems to be the outfitters who are doing the wrong thing... oh well...

I dont see any reason why you shouldn't be allowed to. These things should work both ways.

what R.Jolly said

'The Hunting Report' is focused on providing consumer information to a very specific constituency: hunters. And most of those subscribers would not be interested in underwriting a section on who among them is not paying their bills or behave like jerks while on safari. The subscribers want to identify quality hunting opportunities while avoiding problem outfitters.

That said, there's nothing to prevent outfitters from creating a consortium of sorts along with a website that shares information on problem clients. Seems to me that the cost would be relatively low with a potentially high return on investment for subscriber outfitters. You could call it 'The Client Report'. To limit liability exposure and ensure fairness and honest reporting, you would probably have to allow comment by both parties, as does The Hunting Report.

Knowing such a database exists might even serve as an incentive for hunters to exercise more civil behavior and make prompt payments. After all, no one would want to end up on an industry Black List.

Matt,

You are welcome to post it here if you wish, on The Hunt Report Forum.

This could be fun!

Go for it Matt. Some hunters gripe about their outfitter, only seems fair for you guys to post about slob clients.
As Chapter Prez, I've had to check out a couple of complaints pertaining to donated hunts we sold. Only 1 complaint was forwarded as a formal "ethics" complaint. That process took almost 2 years and resulted in the outfitter recieving sanctions from SCI. The rest of the complaints I've checked into resulted fell into 2 main categories; unrealistic expectations on the part of the client or last minute attempts by the client to change the dates of the hunt.

This reminds me of an outfitter in Africa I hunted with a few years ago that complained a previous client brought a "girlfriend" along and they (hunter & girlfriend) were constantly having sex in the back seat of his land rover while in the bush hunting. Not sure what you file that complaint under but the outfitter about gagged everytime he mentioned it.

THANKS SAEED, THE OUTFIFFERS/GUIDES SHOULD BE ABLE TO POST COMPLAINTS ABOUT SLOB HUNTERS THAT DON'T LIVE UP TO THEIR END OF THE CONTRACT.

Hey Matt,
Just cause I want to shoot the new #1 and #2 buffalo next year with you now I guess you will call me a problem client ! Okay, I guess as long as they are in the top 4 I can live with that.
Seriously, this would provide some good laughs for all if this topic gets revved up.

Go ahead. Bitch about clients.

Then that will open the door about bitching about PH's and their companies.

There are some of them out there that are douche bags but their clients are in love with them because they don't know any better, and they get glowing reviews here on AR.

But you go ahead and talk about clients. I figure it is in bad taste here or in camp, as I have witnessed too many times. But you go ahead.

As a professional running a business and working with the public, I am positive you have some customers you could complain about. In my view that would be less than professional. You probably discuss the 'problem clients' at the bar over a beer with your peers as I do? At any rate, my guess is that you slove the problem the way I would. There is my cost of service and cost of service + X for 'difficult clients'. We call it the a$$hole tax in my industry.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Talking about the good old H-Report.... I wish they would let us outfitters post negative reports about clients who dont pay their bills, welch on their agreements or generally make nusiances of themselves.... but apparently they wont...

It always seems to be the outfitters who are doing the wrong thing... oh well...

Got right ahead and list them here. It should create enough ammunition to keep this website buzzing for awhile.

I suspect that it would backfire bigtime on the outfitter. Most hunters have had times when they shot lousy, did something poorly or maybe made an ass out of themselves and regret it. These are not really who you are talking about, but I guarantee you that if you are posting about really bad clients, lots of regular folks will believe you will gossip about anyone, anytime and will NOT book with you! Not to mention, they are the ones paying the bill. Just about all of us have to grin and bear it sometimes, and if we cannot take it, it is time for another vocation. As far as sex in the Rover, Hell if I know, maybe he should have thrown a bucket of cold water on them. I was going to suggest the PH videotape them while directing the action, but those kinds of people would probably enjoy it!

Yeah guys look it was only a joke (kind of)... I dont need to air my dirty laundry in public... but seriously international outfitters dont really have any kind of forum to discuss these issues. It just shits me to tears that you go to conventions and see clients who owe you money... wandering around booking more hunts.

Given the opportunity I would warn other outfitters not to book certain clients. Sheesh - I had one guy stiff me for $6000 a couple years ago.... ouch! He is GOING to come to Australia and perhaps do it again to some other poor unsuspecting outfitter in the future.

I guess some of these issues could be addressed through SCI and Hunting Report - if they are members... but many arent.

Hunting Report - I just find it annoying that the outfitter is always portrayed as guilty until they prove themselves innocent.

I had a negative article posted about me once (not about hunting but trophy shipment we outsourced) that was printed without my comment - because they had a print deadline. Meanwhile the author had already booked another hunt with us!!

Matt,
Not a good joke. Either "put up or shut up".

If you have a deadbeat to mention, do it or don't whine about not getting paid.

I have the same issue about a taxidermist that stiffed me, then did crappy work. Name names and come to the knife fight with a gun.

quote:

Originally posted by BulldogMaster:
Matt,
Not a good joke. Either "put up or shut up".

If you have a deadbeat to mention, do it or don't whine about not getting paid.

I have the same issue about a taxidermist that stiffed me, then did crappy work. Name names and come to the knife fight with a gun.

Sorry, I just had to preserve the comedic irony of this post!

this topic makes me cringe. In my two safaris I have really tried to be a good hunter/client and I know I have fallen so short in doing so. Lousy shots on animals; too many "sundowners"; so many things that would legitimately piss off an outfitter/PH. Didn't mean to do it, just happened at the time. I hope this is'nt what we are going to debate.
kh

Sounds like a few here are concerned.

If you are talking about clients that don't live up to your expectations, spend enough money, or tip poorly then I think it would be in bad taste. On the other hand when you are talking about deadbeat clients then it is no less professional than credit reporting.

quote:

Originally posted by CharlesL:
Sounds like a few here are concerned.

If you are talking about clients that don't live up to your expectations, spend enough money, or tip poorly then I think it would be in bad taste.

No outfitter I know would EVER complain about such things in public - just part of the job...

I probably shouldnt have started this thread... I'm heading back to the bush tonight for seven weeks - no Internet. Have fun boys and play fair!

Good luck and safe travels to everyone who is lucky enough to be going hunting at the moment!
Cheers
Matt

Two things that I think would get old for most outfitters are the drunks and the fat slobs.

Nobody wants to hunt with someone who's hungover every nite and how can you put on a decent stalk with some tub of lard who's gasping for air and having to stop every 100 feet?

Gentlemen,

From what I hear, there are far more bad clients than there are PHs or outfitters.

The assumption is that the client is always right, but some of the clients I have heard about should be placed on a blacklist, never to be accepted in a hunting camp.

Sadly, we also have a presumption that any business has no right to air its greivances, as that is considered bad form.

Why?

Some of those so called clients use this "silence" from the outfitters and PHs to make this sort of thing again and again.

In full knowledge that it is not going to be brought out in the open.

I also think those who do complain are only a small percentage of those who have had very bad service, whether they are clients or PHs or outfitters.

I can give you examples of some of those very bad apples.

How about a client who is so scared of his rifle, he adds so much weight to it to reduce recoil. Has the cheapest scope scope installed on his rifle, never shoots it before his trip, takes one box of ammo, could not even hit the 2 foot cardbord box the target is stuck to, shoots the wrong animal, and then tells you he wants to come back for another hunt.

This character was after a lion too!?

How about the client who claims he is so hard up, he is saving for his African hunt, then turns with with several custom made rifles. Shoots more animals than he has money for, promising to pay it when he gets back, then never heard from again?

If we are going to give a hard time to the outfitters and PHs who are not providing a service as they should. Then we should also treat the bad clients the same way.

How about the client who drinks a fifth of whiskey every night in camp? Now there's a fun guy to be around!

quote:

this topic makes me cringe. In my two safaris I have really tried to be a good hunter/client and I know I have fallen so short in doing so. Lousy shots on animals; too many "sundowners"; so many things that would legitimately piss off an outfitter/PH. Didn't mean to do it, just happened at the time. I hope this is'nt what we are going to debate.

This kind of behaviour is NOT what is being discussed, I am sure.
Plenty of clients screw up, but if he tries hard, is pleasant company and does not have unreasonable expectations, I'm sure he would be welcomed back anytime.
The corresponding is surely true to a large extent to the outfitter, barring incompetence.

quote:

Originally posted by Karoo:

quote:

this topic makes me cringe. In my two safaris I have really tried to be a good hunter/client and I know I have fallen so short in doing so. Lousy shots on animals; too many "sundowners"; so many things that would legitimately piss off an outfitter/PH. Didn't mean to do it, just happened at the time. I hope this is'nt what we are going to debate.

This kind of behaviour is NOT what is being discussed, I am sure.
Plenty of clients screw up, but if he tries hard, is pleasant company and does not have unreasonable expectations, I'm sure he would be welcomed back anytime.
The corresponding is surely true to a large extent to the outfitter, barring incompetence.

Precisely!

You are certainly NOT the sort of client we are talking about.

Have a look at the two examples I mentioned.

Those are the ones who should be warned about.

Ph have absolutely no problems with a client who wants to have a few drinks in the evening, stays in bed late, and may be go out and shoot something in the afternoon. It is his hunt, and as long as that is what he wants, the PHs I have spoken to have no problem with it.

Clients who try their best and hunt hard, have bad luck hitting or wounding animals, are also not included. It is the attitude that matters - on both sides.

Some clients, just like some outfitters and PHs, are wilfully doing all the wrong things.

These are the sort of behaviour I like to see stop.

How about the outfitter who takes the client's money well in advance, sends him to Africa to hunt with a PH the outfitter has contracted to do the hunt for him. The PH does exactly what he was supposed to do, and has the clients go home with a big smile on their face for a grand safari. Then the PH spends months chasing the outfitter for the money he is due for that hunt?

As I said earlier, let us be fair, and weed out the undesirables from both camps.

Maybe we should get Obamer to get a government bureaucracy together to decide who gets to hunt what.

Then they can decide, if they decide you are allowed to hunt, what you are allowed to wear, how to wear it, how much medicine if any you can take with you and how much it costs. Whether you are too stupid to hunt, whether you have too much money or too little, whether you are ...

Whether you can bring your loudmouthed wife and obnoxious kids along to annoy other clients, the staff, and animals, whether you're an approved race, mixed race or just an acceptable race based on a sliding fee schedule, whether ....

This could be fun.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
I probably shouldnt have started this thread... I'm heading back to the bush tonight for seven weeks - no Internet. Have fun boys and play fair!

Good luck and safe travels to everyone who is lucky enough to be going hunting at the moment!
Cheers
Matt

You are correct Matt, you shouldn't have started this thread, because it makes you look like a gossip, and I can give you a small Idea of the cost to you in my case, I would certainly have my doubts about booking with HUNT AUSTRALIA

it seems to me the client is paying big time for his idea of fun. If he chooses not to hunt and drink or do nothing it is his dime. where i have a problem is then complaining about success. The PH wants to get his client everything he says he wants but i have seen clients in camp that had no chance of shooting much because of their behavior, not out of line just doing what they wnt to do like i said its his dime.I think most of us give it our all hunting and very rarely are we going to be up to the standard of the PH but believe me they can tell if you are trying as hard as you can and they generally have respect for that.

Yep but if a client doesn't pay for a hunt... he is not a client, he is a freeloader and thief!

MacD37 I disagree. Why can't we talk about the elephant in the room. I find obnoxious clients just as offensive in camp as the staff. The difference is I can and do speak up.

Particularly when we are talking about deadbeat clients. I think they should be outed.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:


You are correct Matt, you shouldn't have started this thread, because it makes you look like a gossip, and I can give you a small Idea of the cost to you in my case, I would certainly have my doubts about booking with HUNT AUSTRALIA

WHAT??? Where have I gossipped?? I was merely making a point that international outfitters do not have a 'forum' to warn of clients who welch on their contracts...

How is that gossiping?

As for clients who drink too much, sleep too late, don't shoot for shit(me), fart in the bakkie(me again) or any other behavior I can only think it would be bad form to mention it in a public discussion, but if you have someone who does not pay, they should be named publicly. This may save another outfitter from being screwed out of his/her hard earned money, and might save an AR member from entering into a sale with such an individual. There seems to be no problem hanging someone on the cross in the classifieds for fraudulent behavior, I see nothing wrong with an outfitter doing the same.

Matt, as you can see here http://forums.accuratereloadin...1043/m/610108629/p/1 no one is against the outfitter in a case where he is defrauded.

quote:

Posted 31 July 2009 19:36
Talking about the good old H-Report.... I wish they would let us outfitters post negative reports about clients who don’t pay their bills, welch on their agreements...or generally make nuisances of themselves.... but apparently they wont...

I think Matt and this thread are getting a bit of a bad rap here. However with the corrective lenses of hindsight,I would note that; I think he might have stopped with the lawfully prosecutable aspects and left the general nuisance part out.

Let’s face it there is hardly anything I can think of that some gifted soul can't screw up! This would include not only either side of any business agreement and most human interactions but also, determining what should be ethically reported about a hunting business transaction for the betterment of the industry and our world as a whole. however I do not beleive that this premise should preclude discussing and or eventually acting on the issue.

SCI does accept and follow up on ethical complaints against both provider and client. But not all client or outfitters are SCI members. The Hunt report is as it states and probably not the proper venue for this. This forum and a designated branch might very well be, as it is extremely well managed and attended and the majority of those that post seem to possess a much higher caliber of manners and sensibilities than any other forum I have visited.

Social behavior aspects would see to be one of the slipperiest slopes. As someone asked, “what about the client that drinks a 5th of whisky each night”. Disclosures such as “are you complaining about the cost? Did he make a public spectacle or offend other clients? Was the client finished hunting for the day before starting and sober before picking up a gun again? My thoughts are if the answer to the first is “yes”, change your provisional policies and charge for booze. If yes was the response to the 2nd or 3rd perhaps similar other bar tending issues, it is an occupational hazard and the discomfort and possibly the culpability lies with the camp management. Thus this would not be an ethical complaint against the client as much as it might be against the outfitter.

Dr’s, Lawyers, and many other professionals deal with interpersonal relationships that demand a great deal of discretion. Even much lesser trained and paid, hotel cleaning staffs don’t generally discuss what is left on the bed sheets or at least not in a public forum. However any and all should and do have the right and possibly a civic duty to air seriously bad business practices, dangerous and or unlawful behavior.

Despite the mass population and vast globe it seems fairly obvious that the hunting community is reasonably small and what’s done to one will likely be done to others and I for one believe we owe it to ourselves to keep things within the realm of lawful, and civil responsibility.

Your friend afield

mike o

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:


You are correct Matt, you shouldn't have started this thread, because it makes you look like a gossip, and I can give you a small Idea of the cost to you in my case, I would certainly have my doubts about booking with HUNT AUSTRALIA

WHAT??? Where have I gossipped?? I was merely making a point that international outfitters do not have a 'forum' to warn of clients who welch on their contracts...

How is that gossiping?

I didn't say you were a giossip, I said your post made you look like a gossip. I have been in camps with a couple PHs who bad mouth every client they'd had before me, with petty little things that were simply none of my buisness.

I'm sure most of it was made up, and I often wounder what they made up about me after I left his camp just to have something to talk about to the next client who showed up there! I have never booked with these guys again, and I will not reccomend them to others. I don't talk behind anyone's back, but if asked for my reccomnedation for these guys I will simply say I wouldn't book with them again because they talk behind their client's back, and let the prospective client make up his own mind!

A complaint of a client that doesn't pay his bills is a ligetimate bitch, and for that I have no objection, but what he does with his girl friend is his business, and if he drinks to a point he can't get out of the rack to hunt, that is his wasted money, and his buisiness, and none of mine. I don't want to hear about it from my PH, or from a PH on the internet!

I understand that there are clients that do not want to pay their bills simply because they didn't get a 60" kudu, and are pissed at the PH, But that is not my business.

We had a case like that a while back on AR that raged on for months, and in the end severely damaged the reputation of both the client, and the outfitter, and booking agent,and getting severaal people banned from AR, because of the Kangaroo court that was held here. Held by people who went with the first one they heard, and passed judgement on the case without knowing who was telling the truth, or lying!

Like the DRSS, we have a PM arrangement with AR that we can talk amoung ourselves, privately, and any news that only applies to members is posted in that PM system. PHs and outfitters could do the same thing to warn other PHs and outfitters of a deadbeat clients, but I don't need to know about it. After all he isn't booking with other clients!

I'm very sorry if my opinion angers you, but there it is in print, for you to read or pass over!

Sounds like a good topic for AR "What NOT to do as a client" or maybe "Guess what I had a client do". Could be very entertaining and educational.

I can appreciate what Matt is saying.

In 08, my sons in I were in Argentina for our annual duck/dove hunt. There were 2 gentlemen from Texas. I thought one was a pretty nice guy. The other was far more difficult (believe me that is being polite).

This gentleman caused a lot of difficultly and never paid for his hunt. Pricks like him should be outed.