I am interested in hearing the Rhodesian AR member's thoughts on Mr. Savory.

Ganayana? Zimfrosty? Zig? Others?

Second the motion--not arguing with Lane or anyone. Just asking.

SSR

quote:

not arguing with Lane or anyone. Just asking.

Exactly same for me.

Is this the Alan that helped screw Larry Cummings out of Woodlands Estates?

And the rest of the story....?????

quote:

Is this the Alan that helped screw Larry Cummings out of Woodlands Estates?

Sounds like an unsavoury character. (Sorry, I could not resist.)

He is quite highly regarded in farming circles, from a veld management perspective at least. I've seen quite a few articles written by him (or about him) in the Farmer's Weekly.

I was not aware of his political history.

Wikepedia

Alan Savory is widely respected among farmers through out Africa for his scientific work on veld management etc. I am however aware that there has been a lot of rumour and discussion on his "interaction" with government and certainly the subject of Woodlands Estates is one which pops up whenever Mr Savory's name is mentioned.He was a member of parliament before independence but he and the Ian Smith Government did not always see eye to eye and he subsequently left Rhodesia and only returned after independance. I understand that Savory was a founder member of the Selous Scouts.

His comments that "if I had been born a black man I would have most certainly been a Guerilla fighter against the Rhodesian regime" would certainly have been the basis of some of the anti savory feelings in the early years following the war, but more laterly that has translated into the idea that he has been afforded some protection on farms that he has interests in.(or had assistance in obtaining).

Woodlands was supposedly, as far as I know supposed to become a wildlife college and the rights to run and manage this college were awarded to Savory's company. Shortly after this, it was rumoured that the property was selling hunts to South African hunters with no quotas involved. Out of Africa is known to have run several operations in this area apparently in collaboration with Matanga/Savory.

Overall there are certainly several stories about Alan Savory. This includes that he is a long time friend and associate of Bobs.He was certainly present at the TOP table when Bob Married Grace.

I think one thing must be understood here. Zimbabwe is a place of rumour and heresay and of accusation and counter accusation which is compounded by the emotive position that the country finds itself in. It is almost impossible for anyone to unravel the truth from the entwined mess that the land programme has left as its legacy. I am sure that Ganyana and a few others may have more factual reports as I can only advise what I have heard 2nd and 3rd hand.

In all fairness, I cannot personally confirm if any of the rumours and accusations are true . I do however see an awful lot of smoke. Maybe Ganyana can tell us about the fire.

quote:

He is quite highly regarded in farming circles, from a veld management perspective at least. I've seen quite a few articles written by him (or about him) in the Farmer's Weekly.

I was not aware of his political history.

+ 1. His influence has seen a great improvement in the veld in my area I try and use his principles too.

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Out of Africa is known to have run several operations in this area apparently in collaboration with Matanga/Savory

Thank you.

That is enough for me to add him to my black list!

Sounds like a smart dirtbag , But a dirtbag none the less.

I have grown to dislike the man. His first partner commited suicide after alan screwed him in 1968...and it took him while to escape the accusations that it was 'assisted suicide'. He was a founder member of the Selous Scouts but left before real operations began as he had become a spokesman for The Patriotic Front in 1974.

When the 'PF' broke up into Nkomos Faction And Bob's /tongogara he sided with Bob as served essentially as the ZANU spokesman in the Rhodesian Parliment and eventually got run out of the country by the right wing Rhodesian Action Party in 1977/78.

He returned right after independence in 1980 and was instumental in persuading alot of the the more liberal minded white folk (like my parents) to stay on and give Bob a chance to show what he could do. Even those who didn't like him were caught up in his message that bob was a reconciler and he was a possitive influence in the farming community for the first decade or so after independence.

He owned a small property up in Matetsi along with Tommy Orford on which en endevoured to put his theory's of wildlife management into practice. I have no idea how successful that was- Parks official stance was it was all BS and even to bring up his theories was likely to land you as the junior ecologist at malapati or some remote station where you could be forgoton - I know, I barely survived bringing up his ideas at the first annual ecologists meeting I went to. His ideas must have at least sparked my interest as I read his book..it just that it is at least 25 years ago.

Although he was a visible presence in Zimbabwe after independance he mostly lived in the USA making periodic returns with messages of hope, good cheer and promoting consumptive utilisation of Wildlife. A couple of the more 'liberal' lectures at University were taken with his ideas on carrying capacity by the time I did my masters.

In 2000 he ran Tommy Orford out of the ranch (tommy had done all the work for 20 years) and was able to keep it with the assertion that it was to be a model farm and training Institue. He later took over the adjacent Woodlands estate in partnership with Matanga. Of course, he got shafted and slunk back to the USA.

I don't think he has been actively involved with the ranches since about 2002 but was certainly the 'owner' of the properties - in name at least - when Out of Africa moved in.

I last spoke to him at disGraces wedding to Bob whern I had the extreme missfortune to be present in an official capacity - and Yes, he was on top table.

Allan Savory was a founder of the TCU tactical traking unit ,training first RHODESIAN C SAS squadron ,but as ganyana said he wasnt in SELOUS SCOUTS operations .I just published an article about tactical traking ,in the revista tactica argentina ,and had investigated him ,hes a new ager-left winger ,but very good traker.

Ganyana,

this question came up when i referenced a couple of articles in the current issue of Range Magazine about Allen. one titled "Saving the World". allans article says he and Jody Butterfield at a Ranch called Dimbangombe in Zim. I like some of his range theories but had probs with his politics here in the States. so we got curious.

Speaking of Rhodesian days does anyone know Dr Allen simpson, he was a prof of mine at university and a great guy.

SSR

Although I have been a student of his range management principles...It sound like I would despise him as a man.

Cross L...I see what you mean!

Lane,
I also use and endorse a lot of his management tech and tools. Just because he is smart doesnt make him a good person.

SSR

I am not 100% sure why his theories on land management were so 'wrong' in the eyes of the 'establishment' but certainly no African born lecturerin Bilogical sciences at UZ ever had a good word to say about him and it was only the 'third world groupie' types in sandals and caftans that talked about his ideas. At parks it was easy. The Director research had been an officer in the Rhodesian army until the end of the war...and personl dislike translated into official policy

I had heard that someone had shot and wounded him in Texas. What was that about?

Bill Quimby

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Originally posted by billrquimby:
I had heard that someone had shot and wounded him in Texas. What was that about?

Bill Quimby

Poor sight picture, dirty gun, lack of familiarity with the firearm, scope got knocked off, buck fever, who knows?

If he is a Bob lover...well...

He wasn't shot in Texas. He was shot in northern New Mexico while camping with another fellow on the Santa Fe National Forest.

The Santa Fe National Forest bought off on his grazing scheme on Rowe Mesa. One of the few areas in the National Forest System that would accommodate the Savory System. The system does not work where there are large elevational differences. I am not sure, but he could have been shot while camping at Rowe Mesa while monitoring the results of his grazing system.

quote:

Originally posted by Hoot Murray:
He wasn't shot in Texas. He was shot in northern New Mexico while camping with another fellow on the Santa Fe National Forest.

The Santa Fe National Forest bought off on his grazing scheme on Rowe Mesa. One of the few areas in the National Forest System that would accommodate the Savory System. The system does not work where there are large elevational differences. I am not sure, but he could have been shot while camping at Rowe Mesa while monitoring the results of his grazing system.

Was it an accidental shooting?

Bill Quimby

There were lots of problems on Rowe Mesa. Poachers, pot farmers and very pushy La Raza-its our heritage stolen by anglos-types. I mamged the ranch for a time and it is rough country in a rough neighbor hood. Dont know anything about Allan being shot there.

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
There were lots of problems on Rowe Mesa. Poachers, pot farmers and very pushy La Raza-its our heritage stolen by anglos-types. I mamged the ranch for a time and it is rough country in a rough neighbor hood. Dont know anything about Allan being shot there.

SSR

Sounds like southern Arizona.

Bill Quimby

It was not an accidental shooting. He was shot at night at his campsite. No one knows the motive nor, to the best of my knowledge, was anyone arrested for the crime.

SSR is right when he says that it is rough country in northern New Mexico. I was stationed there for 11 years in a little town, El Rito. I was working for the U.S. Forest Service Law Enforcement on the Carson National Forest.

Bit of info on Allan's tracking ........


Savory’s concept took native tracking and turned it into a military discipline. He argued that a soldier already skilled in patrols, ambushes and tactical maneuvering could better almost anyone in the man tracking game once trained in the necessary techniques. From Rhodesia’s SAS he selected eight men which he felt had demonstrated special potential to form a test group.

Savory put them through a Spartan, rigorous training program in the Sabie Valley adjacent to the Mozambique border. Eight weeks in the field, two weeks back in town and another eight weeks back in the bush was just enough to bring his men to what he felt was the required standard.

Here is some bio information on Allan

Savoury Institute


Talking about the Larry Cummings !!!

Does anyone know where Larry is at this time. I last visited him some years ago before his Wooodlands Estate was seconded.

Cheers, Peter

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Savory put them through a Spartan, rigorous training program in the Sabie Valley adjacent to the Mozambique border. Eight weeks in the field, two weeks back in town and another eight weeks back in the bush was just enough to bring his men to what he felt was the required standard.

I have a friend (whom many others here know as well) who went through it.

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Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Savory put them through a Spartan, rigorous training program in the Sabie Valley adjacent to the Mozambique border. Eight weeks in the field, two weeks back in town and another eight weeks back in the bush was just enough to bring his men to what he felt was the required standard.

I have a friend (whom many others here know as well) who went through it.

Shit I need to renegotiate my contract - two weeks off every second month?

Larry is still around the falls involved in a few things.

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Originally posted by TNJohn:
Larry is still around the falls involved in a few things.

Just wondering if you or any of the guests might have an email contact for Larry at all !! Want to touch base and send him my wishes.

Cheers, Peter

Balla, I am friends with Larry and his wife Judy and keep in touch with Judy on Facebook. If you'd like to send them a message I could relay, just PM me your email address or whatever..I am heading off again tomorrow for a while so let me know before dawn or it'll have to wait a few weeks..
Cheers, David

I am not a Rhodesian nor an expert on range management. But I am a great admirer of Zimbabwe and have many friends there. While I do not know Alan Savory I have met his son several times there in Zimbabwe near Victoria Falls. He was not well thought of there. Have been to his 'Institute' many times and killed my last Elephant on nearby property adjacaent to Fuller Forest. It is the elephant in the picture at the left. The meat went to his institute who at the time could not take it because of the cold storage facilities being broken and the meat went to the villagers. The most fascinating thing I found about his 'Institute' was the baby elephant being raised there with his own 24 hr caretakers. I personally could not see any particular improvement of the range there. I live in Southern Arizona adjacent to the Santa Rita Experimental Range which was set aside in 1903 for the express purpose of range management experiments and has been managed as such ever since. I have spent many many hours on this range in the last 30 years as it is my favorite place to hunt quail having Gambels,Scaled and Mearns species. Do not see any appreciable difference in the Savory managed rangeland and the SRER. As far as the Selous Scouts are concerned He gets a single short paragraph in the book 'Pamwe Chete' by LtCol Reid-Daly who was quite involved in it's developement. He was credited with running the early survival/bush part of the course. The only Selous Scout that I personally know (now a PH) had little to say for him. Over the years I have spent many weeks in camp in the area of his 'Institute' it is magnificent country, I have killed much game in that area. In all the words I have ever heard spoken about the man I can not think of a single occasion one was good.