Rusty,

I probably shot more buffalo than most people on this forum, and have spoken to PH who have been in the business much longer than Mr. Sullivan.

From my own experience, and from what I heard from these PH, there is NO WAY anyone will get as many buffalo charging as MS does without provocation.

Need I say more?

Rusty,
You will not find any evidence of deliberate wounding on MS tapes, I can assure you.
Matondo.

PS , on another thread, an American gent appeared concerned about what Africans thought of Americans.
Having read a few posts here,were I American, I would actually be more concerned about what Americans think of Americans. You guys sure love slaughtering each other. Sometimes reminds me of a pack of Hyeanas turning on one of their own !!

You will probably find the rest of us think a lot more of you guys than you'll do of yourselves.

Saeed,

With respect, how far does one go in picking holes. For example, I note from one of your videos, where all four bulls one eventually killed, the 2nd or maybe 3rd bull was hit, and stood there , waiting for a couple of minutes, whilst you waited for an opportunity to shoot the other bull. Some people may call that unecessary suffering for the wounded bull.
The bottom line is, if you do not like it, don't watch it. Isn't that the advice we usually give to the antis?
Not all MS does is acceptable, but I have seen worse.
M.

I wonder just how much respect the Buff will have for MS when he is turning Mr. Sullivan into so much goo. I heard somewhere that he did get his final charge and lost.

Learned Sirs:
Not having any experince in hunting Africa I rushed to buy all kinds of tapes and have spent a few hundred on books to learn all I could.All I can say,and I'm no expert,just 30 years as a beat cop,this gentleman has a death wish,much like those we face that suffer from suicide by cop.And if as you'll say he wounds the animal to premt the charge why do the Countrys that hold his license let this go on? Not trying to start any hate mail here just trying to learn.

Welcome Dave.

I'm the one who started this topic, and in a way I regret doing so. I knew it would spark some lively conversation, which is one reason I did it, but by and large I did it because I went out and bought "Black Death", and watched it for myself for the very first time.

Like I said in my original post, he does not come off as he does when you hear all these other things. There is only ONE, and I mean ONE, scene that is questionable that I remember. The one that made him famous. He walks up on a wounded Bull, that jumps to it's feet and charges.

He certainly could have, and should have, finished it off before ever walking up that close. It may have saved the animal a few minutes of suffering which it certainly was.

By the same token, we don't see much of what happens from the time his crippled client shot, until the camera cuts away and comes back to "The Scene".

I only have this one video to judge by, but I do have the words of all the other forum members. Like so many other controversial topics, this guy brings out the opinions in a big way.

Probably the most even keeled and respected is Saeed's, and you seldom hear a bad thing about anyone from his mouth.

One of my biggest regrets is that he (Saeed) drew fire from someone for his video, which is one of the most valued in my collection.

Though I do wonder how credible that poster is. After all, he claims to be in Africa, and has a copy of Saeed's tape, yet he just joined this forum in the past few days???

Well, anyway, sounds like Mark pretty much deserves the bad rap, but again, not for this first video, but for everything else he seems to say and do.

[ 08-17-2002, 02:45: Message edited by: Africa2003 ]

Dave,

Welcome. I suspect the only way the authorities in Tanzania would get involved would be if a client of Sullivan's filed a complaint of some type.

The government game scout is charged with seeing that the game laws of Tanzania are followed. Technically, wounding an animal so as to induce a charge, is probably not in violation of the game laws. Any way, $100 is a lot of money to a game scout (if you know what I mean).

Regards,

Terry

Gentelmen, let me say, I know the charge has been made that these buffalo are purposely wounded so MS can initiate a charge for the camera! I do not believe this to be true! As anyone who has hunted Cape Buffalo, with solids, as do all the people shooting Buffalo on MS's tapes, knows that a Buffalo is rarely knocked out by even a number of shots, unless the brain, or spine are hit. With this in mind, you can see that it wouldn't be necessary to wound an animal to get to the point where these charges are provoked. All he has to do is wait till the buff goes down, then approch into the buffalo's fight space. Even on his first film, BLACK DEATH MS approches the downed Buffalo, the Buffalo is faceing away from MS, with his spine exposed to MS. The proper thing to do would have been, to slam him in the spine then, and there. MS did not do this, but purposely, IMO, moved about till he got the Buffalo's attention. Again, anyone who knows Cape Buffalo, knows if a wounded buffalo sees you that close he will charge, because you are inside his fight space. IMO, MS knows that as well, and this was initiated for only one reason, and IMO that reason was for a film clip, nothing more. However,one possitive thing I see in this scene is,it one of the best examples of why a double rifle is the rifle to have in hand,during a close charge. MS's first shot on the Buff,from about ten feet, hit it in the face, but missed the brain,NO EFFECT, the second shot was fired with the Buff's nose only three, or four feet from the muzzle of MS's rifle. If MS had been useing a bolt rifle he would not have had time to work a bolt, and fire that second shot, at all, and the Buffalo would have hit him full bore.

The Buffalo almost had him anyway!

In Subsequent films, Ms takes his easy time to discuss how good his concession is, while a Buffalo that has been spined, can be plainly seen in the background,and is dragging his hindquarters. Instead of takeing this animal out of his pain, He talks to the camera.

These are the things I find distasteful on these films. As I said before, I don't believe MS purposely wounds Buffalo for this purpose. Like someone else mentioned in a post above, I find it strange that none of this chest pounding took place when there was a wounded lion in the grass! If you will watch this film, SUDDEN DEATH you can plainly see the fear in MS's eyes, when he gets ready to go into the grass! For this I don't balme him, it would not be a pleasent place to be, but why is this fear no present when he approches a downed Buffalo? Could it be the wounded Buffalo is much easier to hit, properly, from 5 yds, than a gut shot LION?

[ 08-17-2002, 17:19: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

I've only seen clips of his videos. One is where a buff with obvious spine damage is making his way at MS as best he can; a very hobbled run/charge. As the buff gets very close it goes down on it's own and then MS shoots the animal when it's down at his feet(when the danger is over) instead of out there alittle ways for safety's sake. This is pure showoff/cowboyism for effect. I haven't seen the lion video but a gutshot lion in the tall grass is not something you can screw around with like a big ole easy to hit buff out in the open. His next video should be of a wounded buff hidden in close heavy cover just to make it interesting.

FWIW, in each of the four videos of MS's that I have watched, I have never seen any indication whatsoever that any of the animals were wounded purposely.

What is abundantly clear however, is that buffalo that have yet to expire are not finished off quickly when the opportunity is first presented, and they are taunted into charges by being approached from the front. Many of these buffalo were hit quite well 5 or 6 times before they were goaded into charging.

matondo,

I think on the occasion you mentioned, we were waiting for a clear shot at the wounded buffalo, as others were standing behind him. Our worries were if we did shoot him and the bullet went out, it would wound another one, and we certainly did not wish to do that.

I stand by what I have said before, animals will get wounded in any hunting situation - anyone who tells you otherwise has not hunted, but may have shot animals like fish in a barrel on a farm.

What I do object to is purposely instigating a charge.

I am sure on some of our hunts we could have done exactly what MS has done - get a buffalo to charge, and shoot. This has nothing to do with hunting. Just a bit of Hollywood showmanship.

It would be an entirely different matter if a wounded buffalo runs into some thick bush, where one cannot see further than 6 inches in front of his face! It would be interesting to see how many videos MS can sell of that occasion.

By the way, I do have all his videos. They are great to show people how NOT to hunt buffalo.

This reminds me of a man we used to call "the most useless person on earth". One time he turned around and said he was useful, as he could be used as an example for others.

This is exactly what I do with MS videos. Great teaching tools.

I will say one thing, gentelmen, strings of MS bashing like this one are a real boon to MS, because they make people who haven't seen his films, go out and buy them to see what we are talking about! Though I'm sure it bruses his ego, MS cries all the way to the bank! $$$$$$$$$$$$

There are only two explanations when it comes to MS - 1) The buff are intentionally wounded. OR 2) MS has the worst shooting clients in the history of hunting. (I mean no ill will towards anyone who has hunted with Mark so please don�t jump down my throat)

Here is my point - Hundreds of buff are taken each year by paying clients. Thousands of buff are culled each year by Parks Board personnel. I have spoken with several of the folks who cull buff and ele in Kruger. They shoot several hundred TB infected buff a year. Interestingly, buff charges just don�t happen to them.

So how is it MS has ALL this perfectly framed film footage of numerous wounded, charging buff each year? After many years of hunting in Africa and traveling to SCI almost every year, I have not found five PHs with the number of charges MS documents. In fact, most any PH will tell you things must go pretty badly for a charge to occur - i.e. gut shot buff. Even in those circumstances, a quick followup shot solves the problem.

MS seems dead set on playing matador with Cape Buff and his clients seem quite content to pay for his pleasure. As long as the unenlightened continue to buy his videos, MS will continue his antics.

Mark Sullivan's philosophy reminds me of some coon hunters I knew in Texas.

When the coon was treed by the dogs they never shot the coon out of the tree with a pistol. You see they beleived in giving that coon a fighting chance.

Instead they would always climb the tree and poke the coon out to fight the dogs.

A lot of times there might be anywhere from 8 to 12 dogs...................but the coon had the option of whipping all those dogs and walking off if he so desired.

Very good analogy! Treed raccoon relief by pointy stick and pack of coon hounds. Yes indeed, very similar to gut shot buffalo relief by MS. Quite a show either way.

mark is not a real PH he just plays one on TV.

After reading his introduction page, I think Sullivan does these stunts because they sell. They also get a lot of attention, and wheter it's positive or negative attention it makes no difference to someone as egotistical as he seems to be. He tries to come across as respectful to the game, but he is really just exploiting the the last futile effort of a wounded animal, and to me it comes across as disrespectful, especially when he sells the footage for $50 a tape. Although Sullivan's "belief" seems to hold his respect for the animal in high regard, his films contradict this. Of course in the end it's entertainment, just like gladiators in Rome and Bull fights in Spain-some agree with it, some don't.
I don't

Matondo,

Like your name. I hope it isn't an indication of the type of person you are.

[ 08-21-2002, 22:26: Message edited by: Zingela ]

Africa2003

You must buy, borrow, or steal all of Mark Sullivan's tapes to appreciate the progression of his lunacy. I bought all the tapes I could find on Tanzania in anticipation of going there next year so I have seen all of the MS videos numerous times.

I must say that his videos are very well done. They are much better than some other tapes out there. The content just needs to be taken for what it is and it is exactly as someone else said "how not to do it".

Can you imagine as in Death at My Feet standing behind your PH with an empty rifle in your hands as you approach a wounded buffalo and then the PH lets the buffalo charge and kills it at blood platter range. I don't think so!

My motto is "Pore on the lead until he is dead".
This philosophy has sometimes drawn criticism but no animal has ever gotten up and run away or tried to bite me when I could have easily put in a finishing shot but didn't.