/

In that case, SBT better not watch it.

After reading and watching "Something of Value", I was wondering: Does Mau Mau still exist?

No, the Kikuyu (who constituted the 'Mau Mau') now run the country.

George

SBT,
There is a great documentary video called "AFRICA BLOOD AND GUTS". The video shows several different African countries. When Kenya gained independence, the video shows the massacre of wildlife that followed. This video should not be shown to children. It is extremely violent to both wildlife and humans. There are several places to obtain the video from the internet.I cannot stress enough how disturbing this video can be to children.

I recently read a very interesting autobiography by Frank Kitson, called Bunch of Fives. He was a British army officer dealing with counter-insurgency in Kenya, Cyprus and Malaya, and there is lot in the book about his dealings with Mau Mau. One problem was that the Mau Mau used initiation rites involving witch-doctors and a lot of black magic which meant that even if someone wanted to leave the movement they would not dare. In order to get around this, the British employed their own witch-doctors, making even stronger medicine to free those who wanted to support the British, from the spell that they were under. Kitson don't say much about the rites but just makes the comment that he did not feel them to be in line with his membership of The Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. Kitson was a hunter, and those were the days a hunter could be a member of RSPCA, though he did not write about his hunting, the book is about counter-insurgency.

It still exists, it just has different names, it's throughout the world today, Mau Mau, Uhuru, Communism, Al Quida, IRA, Mafia, and a hundred others... Terrorism is terrorism regardless of the cloak. It is to be found wherever evil men gather and conspire, where Satan inspires men to causes that are against the laws of God...

Alf,
While I will grant that there are paralels, I have yet to see the equivelants of Washington, Jefferson, Hamilton etc. arising from the ashes of formerly colonial Africa.

The French helped the American Colonies revolt against the British (in the context of a larger European war). Their influence didn't take (thank you God). I don't think the Soviets would have had any more luck molding us in their image. We are a mongrel nation, and never have known how to act in public!
He, he, he.
JCN

As a mongrel nation, watch out for the junk yard dog. The dam thing bites sometimes. Mau Mau is still just like it always was. Ask Robber Bob. He will take it all the way until there is nothing left of Zimbabwe/ Rhodesia what ever you want to call it. "D"

/

Very wise words D.
This all reminds me of Barbara Tuchman's excellent book, The March of Folly . These types of fights usually don't end until most everyone is dead on the floor. Just a F****ng waste.
JCN

Idi Amin was a hero to his people. What is interesting is the Kikuyu really never changed, only faded with force. Like any terrorist group, they will not fight the fight unless they have the advantage. If not, then they grovel. The British, Germans, et al. had various phases of control over the Tribes. It is hard to believe that Meinertzhagen was spot on in his Kenya Diaries, when he predicted political struggles once they developed modern infrastructures. Africa for Africans?

Every culture has their monsters/heros. Take the US for instance. I love this country and that's why I live here, but we have had some truly terrible people in charge here. One example is someone every person on this site respects to a degree. Teddy Roosevelt was one of the worst. He supported the order, as commander, to kill every man, woman and child over the age of ten in the Phillipines. Wholesale destruction of the western native tribes was commonplace for him, as was the breaking of nearly every Indian treaty written before him. His little brother ordered the killing of women and children via area bombing and the use of napalm in Japan to specifically destroy the wood and paper homes of civilians, after condemning Japan for doing the same thing in China.
We all have our monsters, it just depends upon which end of the gun you happen to be at the time.

Alf, you truely are displaced. Ridiculous.

/

hhmag:



Teddy's little brother ordered what! You've been smoking some funky weed, man!

But wait, maybe while Roosevelt was governor of N.Y., I guess he broke treaties with Chief Joseph, too.



Fellow, you may love the U.S., but I hope you weren't educated here. I've never even heard of "politically correct" revisionism going so far. Where did you hear that stuff? Maybe an old issue of The Daily Worker?



Anyway, as to the Mau Mau... Folks don't frequent many African countries because there are "rebel" movements that will either kill you because of your color (national origin and religion, too) or have killed all the game (or both). The name may not be Mau Mau nor the purpose excactly the same, but the effect upon one who wishes to visit or hunt the country is equal.

Sic him Judge!

Amazing how all the bleeding heart liberals come out with these topics. Give me a break. The mau mau rebellion was a COMMUNIST fomented event just like all the other "nationalist" uprisings in Africa since WWII. Almost WITHOUT exception, all were much better off with the aid of the west.

Were they initially exploited? Of course they were, but that's life. If it wasn't for the West today, that place would be more of a holocaust than it is today. And blaming TR for the Phillipines? you must be a democrat. jeez. jorge

I thought this was intersting how the Mau Mau history is still being used by street gangs. There was a major street gang in the 1950's called the Mau Mau that terrorized New York.


For example, many of the black prison gangs, such as the Black Guerrilla Family and its spin-off, 415, also known as the Kumi African Nation, use symbols of Africa-including pictures of the continent itself-in their tattoos. For example, a popular tattoo among members of the Kumi African Nation depicts a yero, or African Warrior, rising up out of an outline of the continent of Africa. In his left hand he holds a machine gun, and in his right he holds a flag bearing the numbers 415. These images reflect the African orientation of both the Black Guerrilla Family and the Kumi African Nation, which both encourage their members to learn Mau Mau history and words drawn from the Swahili language, which they use to communicate with each other in ways that will not be accessible to outsiders.

Nicky Cruz now lives in Colorado. Not too many years ago he was vice president of the notorious Mau Mau gang in Brooklyn. He was vicious -- so much so, he once tried to kill his own brother. Seventeen victims were stabbed by him in gang fights. He and Mau Mau president Israel Narvaez roamed the streets of Brooklyn, terrorizing, fighting -- full of hate and violence! From 1956 to 1958, the Mau Maus were one of the most feared of all New York City gangs -- making headlines regularly.

Alf, You do show your liberal european mindset. Progress is progress. We all know that we are stewards of the land not its owners. I amazes me to see how in modern times the little peoples of this planet still use second and third century techniques to effect change. Rationalise as you will. It just doesn"t get it done that way. Peoples that have no concept of freedom, only dictatorships etc., can only use like techniques to secure change. Terriorism today terriorism tomorrow. Just different faces. Try reading Something of Value by Robert Ruark. He was right!!!!!

Several history books support the fact that TR was an indian hunter and he supported wiping out several tribal groups as well as forced relocations of at least five tribes, my own among them, from reservations that they were given and forced onto by earlier treaties. TR was also in charge of our "taming" of the Phillipines and Hawaii, both by violent pacification. FDR later did the same things in Haiti and directly ordered the use of Napalm in Japan after Doolittle's successful raid. He approved the use of bombers against soft, non-military or industrial targets in Japan and Germany. I may not disagree with this policy, and I served my country in the USMC well, but FDR, Churchhill and Stalin specifically condemned Japan for the same practice in 38-39 in China, and swore that our nations were above such tactics.

JudgeG, I've read a bunch of your posts and like them, but I was merely stating that we all have our monsters, every nation, every race, every one. Period. History writes some of them off as defeated and calls them monsters. Some of them, history calls heros, champions of freedom. I geuss it just depends on which side of the fence you're on.

Now my admission, I f...ed up, I meant cousin, not brother, just tired when I typed. At least I show respect to those I respond instead of resorting to name calling.

/

hhmag:



The Roosevelts: An American Monsters!



Yep, it's all right here:



The President of the United States of America, authorized by Act of Congress, March 3, 1863, has awarded in the name of The Congress the Medal of Honor to



LIEUTENANT COLONEL THEODORE ROOSEVELT



UNITED STATES ARMY



for conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty:



Lieutenant Colonel Theodore Roosevelt distinguished himself by acts of bravery on 1 July, 1898, near Santiago de Cuba, Republic of Cuba, while leading a daring charge up San Juan Hill. Lieutenant Colonel Roosevelt, in total disregard for his personal safety, and accompanied by only four or five men, led a desperate and gallant charge up San Juan Hill, encouraging his troops to continue the assault through withering enemy fire over open countryside. Facing the enemy's heavy fire, he displayed extraordinary bravery throughout the charge, and was the first to reach the enemy trenches, where he quickly killed one of the enemy with his pistol, allowing his men to continue the assault. His leadership and valor turned the tide in the Battle for San Juan Hill. Lieutenant Colonel Roosevelt's extraordinary heroism and devotion to duty are in keeping with the highest traditions of military service and reflect great credit upon himself, his unit, and the United States Army.



AND:



*ROOSEVELT, THEODORE, JR.



Rank and organization: brigadier general, U.S. Army. Place and date: Normandy invasion, 6 June 1944. Entered service at: Oyster Bay, N.Y. Birth: Oyster Bay, N.Y. G.O. No.: 77, 28 September 1944. Citation: for gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty on 6 June 1944, in France. After 2 verbal requests to accompany the leading assault elements in the Normandy invasion had been denied, Brig. Gen. Roosevelt's written request for this mission was approved and he landed with the first wave of the forces assaulting the enemy-held beaches. He repeatedly led groups from the beach, over the seawall and established them inland. His valor, courage, and presence in the very front of the attack and his complete unconcern at being under heavy fire inspired the troops to heights of enthusiasm and self-sacrifice. Although the enemy had the beach under constant direct fire, Brig. Gen. Roosevelt moved from one locality to another, rallying men around him, directed and personally led them against the enemy. Under his seasoned, precise, calm, and unfaltering leadership, assault troops reduced beach strong points and rapidly moved inland with minimum casualties. He thus contributed substantially to the successful establishment of the beachhead in France .







Sir:



It is interesting that you immediately pull out the "race card" to defend your position. I'd like to know the tribe to which you belong and the reservation to which you refer. BTW, my Creek, paternal grandfather was named Osceloa, so you can't out "Native American" me. And I don't even hate TR or even Andy Jackson.



The "violent pacification" of Hawaii by TR??? They don't even teach that in Kamahamaha School... I know. My oldest daughter went there for a bit. And FDR must have planned Pearl Harbor and the Rape of Nanking, too, ...and with TR's urging. (btw, great book, THE RAPE OF NANKING... You ought to read it.) I apoligize. Come to think of it, Japan liberated the Phillipines from the bloody Roosevelts, didn't they?



FDR's son was the most famous of the Marine Radiers. TR's sons were some kind of heros, too... One a pilot in WWI, one of which was immortalized in THE LONGEST DAY. But I forgot, Normandy was an environmental disaster and all that concrete in the ocean for docks and the decaying American bodies... We should have called in the League of Nations and Chamberlin to ask Hitler's permission to use Calais, I guess. And we took all that French land for cemeteries. Like we are stealing Iraqi oil and have refused to turn over the government. Or as Julian Bond said, "They are just porch monkeys" when refering to the imperialist lackeys, Powell and Rice.



This b.s. even has infected my family. My dear mis-informed, Democrat-voting 83 year-old mother asked me yesterday why we have "kept" Puerto Rico so long. When I told her that the citizens of PR had consistantly voted to remain within a commonwealth, she just said, "oh". The rape of the American mind by the left is a terrible thing.



Revisionism is rampant. For some damn reason it is o.k. to denigrate anything "American" as bad or worse than anywhere else on the planet... like the Smithsonian has an exibit on slavery that states that the American version was infinitely worse than the "acceptable" African or Middle Eastern types. That is the tripe that our children are learning. The exhibit doesn't even mention 600,000 Union troops who died "to make men free" or that slavery still exist in Chad and Sudan.



Why must you hate America? Oh, yeah! I know. It's because Napoleon (who was White) shot off the Sphinx's nose because it was Negroid and the CIA started aids. (I had someone tell me both of those for fact last night. Those "truths" and that he'll be voting for John Kerry because George Bush lied about WMD's and JK was right to vote against the war after he alread voted for it.) Revisionism already has begun, I guess before the history books have been written? Do you call that "premptive revisionism?"





I thank you for your service to the nation, but I'm afraid there is a "speck" in your eye that causes you to knee-jerk to believe myths of those who want the "noble experiment" of this country to fail and America to lowered to the denominator of the rest of the world. Long live France.. Long live China.. Long live those poor oppressed Taliban guys... We're sooooooooo baaaaad. We CAUSED the World Trade Center attack. If we just "understood" terrorists, we'd learn to live happily in the 9th century, I guess.



I have "extra" copies of THE RISE OF THEODORE ROOSEVELT and THEODORE REX by Edmund Morris) around here somewhere. I will be glad to send you a copy of them for your reading. The first (even in this climate of political correctness) won the Pulitzer Prize. I think you may change your mind about who was "name calling" if you read them. Send me a p.m. and I'll forward the first to you. Read it, and I'll buy you a copy of the second.

Folks:



I sorry for going off on hhmag. This is supposed to be the African Hunting forum, but sometimes my ass gets chapped. Like today when the U.N. says that we must fight AIDS like we fight terrorism.



O.K. I'll fix the AIDS part of it. "Don't screw anybody but your wife". Solved that, didn't I? Now let me figure a while on terrorism.



I'm through with my typing spree, abusing this thread with non-African Hunting topics... so...



Who wants to talk about my Searcy that's being built? Meet you at Big Bores! And... I MAY want to sell a couple of my double rifles to a good home.

Arky,



Have you been to Greece lately? Quite frankly, all of my relatives in Crete live better than most people I know in the US. And they deserve it after putting up with the brutal US sponsored junta for so many years!



It is also very presumtuous of you to assume that all immigrant families came to the US seeking economic opportunity. Mine didn't . . . my grandfather and his brothers were simply pissed off at their father (an interesting family conflict actually) and decided to leave. They were hardly "risking everything" as you state.



I apologize for offending your faith but I included "capitalists" in my initial post simply because Ray conspicuously excluded them from his list of potentially "evil" men. Profit IS the modern deity after all and as much evil is done in its name as is done in the name of any faith's God! Relatively few men and women pray halfheartedly in Cathedrals on Sundays but the REAL houses of worship overflow the remaining six days of the week. These stand tall along city streets and are filled with more evil motives and men than the architects of soviet socialism could ever have dreamed.



Have a nice day!



JohnTheGreek

Judge You mentioned the Smithsonian display on slavery, I read an interesting article in the National Geographic recently on modern slavery. We think it is all over and done with. It said there are more slaves today in eastern Europe and western asia than there ever were in the rest of the world when slavery was a legal and accepted business in the west. I am sure many that have traveled more than I have seen this themselves and some that read this forum may actually be victims or participants in it. We should all be thankful of the freedoms we have and can enjoy. Good hunting. "D"

John
I've not been to Greece since 1955, lovely people, great ruins, cleaner then France or Italy.

Quote:

---

It is also very presumtuous of you to assume that all immigrant families came to the US seeking economic opportunity. Mine didn't . . . my grandfather and his brothers were simply pissed off at their father (an interesting family conflict actually) and decided to leave. They were hardly "risking everything" as you state

---

I'll bet that 99% of all immigrants arrived on these shores for economic or political/religish reasons, maybe 99.99999%. I guess that I'm not surprised that your ancesters arrived here with the other three families that did not come to these shores for the above reasons.
Hey you didn't offend me in the least. The system that the US enjoys works, the remaining economic systems are like V-8 engines with several blown cyclinders.
My first response to clergy and educrates is to grab my wallet. I seems both of these endeavors demean wealth and the pursuit of wealth. Have you noticed how both professions build large expensive edifaces, demand large incomes, all paid out of the public's purse? They share one other trait, neither likes accountability.
Jim

Greek: then you must live in a part of the US I don't know. I've been all over Europe including Greece AND Cyprus and to say that they have a higher standard of living than us is absurd to the point of lunacy. Now if your definition of "better off" includes your left-wing democrat ideals of goverment taking care of one from cradle to grave, taxes to the point of oppression, secularism and all the other assorted utopian garbage that spews from the left, then you might have a point.

Bottom line is this country's success was founded on God, Guts, guns, the Protestant/NORTHERN european work ethic (I'm catholic BTW)and HARD WORK, something the indian tribes here were not willing to adapt to. The truth hurts sometimes, but a war was fought on this continent and one side won the other lost. As for the African continent, what littel they have is THANKS to the West. jorge

JudgeG,
Again, sir, I must apologize for misstating my opinion. I was merely (for once) agreeing with Ray in his first post on the subject, as well as expanding on it. With the exception of the brutality towards the NA population, I actually admire TR for his wildlife conservation efforts as well as FDR for pulling us out of the depression. I simply wanted to bring up the fact that in the 1890's, the average Phillipino off the street would not have agreed with us on his greatness. In 1915, the Hatians would have taken a different view of FDR than we have today as he, as Secy. of the Navy, led thousands of Marines into their land.
As for the Nation to which my family belongs, it is Araphoe. My immediate family had to move to Florida to follow my great grandfather, who was sent here to die in prison based solely on his religion (Ghost Dancer). Along the way, he and his "conspirators" were paraded thru widwest and eastern towns, where folks were charged a nickel to spit on him. Had the Mau Mau philsophy existed at the time, my great grandfather and the other Ghost Dancers would have worn the moniker quite well. Lastly, the name calling remark was not aimed at you. I do not hate America, I served with pride. Mine was not a knee jerk reaction, just a reminder that history is written by the victors, and we seldom think from the other side of the fence when we remember that.
Back to the original post, the Kikuyu who formed the Mau Mau secret society probably did not think it was so bad. The exact same situation happened to us in Viet Nam and more recently with the Taliban in A'stan. Only the name and people change, but the ideals of the Mau Mau exist everywhere.