Oooooo Surely you jest ! A weatherby failure ? Oh my.

CW: What makes you think I have (sic) Zero experiences with 700s? Thankfully, I quit after just one, a classic that I waited almost a whole year to get in 35 Wheelen back in 1986. AS it turns out, the chamber was over cut and the bolt would get stuck after opening.

Further, I've seen plenty of 700s at Quantico where one of my best friends was an Scout Sniper intructor there when I was at the Pentagon. He is now retired and now owns a big gun shop outside of Camp Lejeune, NC. I also have many other acquaintances and friends that post here with VAST 700 experience and I have personally SEEN 700 handles fall off and extractors fail (albeit not many) at our range here.

AS far as your "weatherby experience," sorry, but I'm always leery of someone who professes ownership of a product ( in your casy "many") yet takes every opportunity to criticize the very product he buys, again and again. At least in my case I admit to making a mistake in buying just one Remington. I also don't see any evidence of post german Weatherbys with safety problems, but in that case, you're partially correct, their safeties are not as good as Winchester's.

Lastly, you don't know me, but a few here do, and I'm not the typical internet neophyte that parrots someone else's "BS" as you put it. It's a good debate tactic to digress, but the fact remains that the vast majority of PHs and hunters that post here see it my way when it comes to 700s. For dangerous game their answer is pretty mcuh the same: "not on your life." jorge

Jorge. My apolagies. I was taking you at your word when you previously claimed you had never personally experienced a bolt failure etc with Remington. Now knowing a friend that has a cousin who owns a gun shop is about the same as speading internet BS IMHO.
Yes I have owned several Weatherbys. Most grouped poorly and had miserable triggers. I have one accumark that I kept. The previous Accumark was a Weatherby buy back defective. Sorry to burst your bubble but I am not prone to giving up on a product that I want to be as good as the advertising. After several mistakes I did give up.

Hello,
Jorge, I personally shoot at Quantico and have for several years now and if you walk the firing line, you will see many, many Rem. 700's and in the hands of Marines I might add, plus a hole bevy of "civies..." as well.
It is quite obvious you do not care for Remingtons and that is certainly your choice but to imply to those who do use them and like them and do so with great results, that they are junk, not safe, unreliable, etc. etc. is not a logical argument for it is not supported by the facts. I would venture to say there are more 700's sold in the USA than all the others put together and if they were problem firearms with all that exposure to useage and public scrutiny, then the sales and useage would not exist.
Again, every one to his or her own choice, but to openly criticize a product as the Remington 700 rifle flies in the face of facts and logic. There are many qualified, experienced shooters and hunters that use the Remington 700 all over the globe w/ great success. It seems strange that there is only an occasional 700 shooter that so openly criticizes the crf type actions as the Win or Mauser?? It is probably due to the fact that they really do not give those other types much thought since they are well satisfied with what they have found with the Remingtons.
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dsiteman

CW: Please don;t apologize when you are obviosuly being condecending. But, You are right, I've never personally experienced a bolt failure, broken extractor,but I did have that lug problem. I never said anything about third party stuff, no "cousin" b.s, I saw it. It was stuff I personally witnesed.Not to worry, I won't lose any sleep if you don't accept it, but I'll tell you again, you don't know me so don't question my integrity.

As far as your several Weatherbys that didn't shoot and had bad triggers the odds of owning several Weatherbys that ALL shot bad, that's incredible bad luck, Also, I don't get the trigger problem with Weatherbys, they are easily adjusted for pull and overtravel as you must know since you've owned so many of them.

Dsiteman: I don't think I've used the word "junk" as you say in that manner anyway. It is fact about the lawsuits, it is a fact that the handles are brazed on it is a fact the extractors are prone to failures, if not why is there such a huge aftermarket for Sako extractors, including the military?

If you look at my first post, you'll see that I agreed with the poster to go ahead and use his 700. I fully realize the popularity of Remingtons and that's ok by me,my only issue and others here as well was with their use on dangerous game same goes for Weatherbys. jorge

What about the Remington African Big Game Rifle. It has in line centre line feed so is "true" conrtrolling of the round feeding. For calibres like 416 Remington, 458 Win with a bullet that is not much smaller than chamber diameter and especially if such bullets were flat nosed, I think this entry from Remington would beat the staggered feeds for reliabilty.

If you wanted one piece bolt and M70 type safety you have the same thing from HS Precision.

Here is the Rem 700.

http://www.hendershots.net/gunview.asp?GunID=191

Jorge, You must have spent a fair amount of time in DC because you are pretty good at the old Potomac two step. I never questioned your integrity but I do question the validity of your opinion based on personal experience with one gun. I ran through several Weatherbys. Bad luck ? I don't know about that. I wound up with one that is incedibly accurate and after selling off several I still didn't spend anywhere near what a custom gun would have cost. I " Wanted " Weatherby to be good just as much as you "want" Remington to be all bad. You are fond of talking about how the military got "stuck" with Remingtons. Try explaining away the fact that this is what most bench shooters and SWAT teams use. DG ? Well I don't know but for everything else my experience says the 700 is an exceptional buy.

Sorry, but I'm not familiar with the two-step in question. The original poster had a question and I answered it and have not changed position. Nowhere on my posts I say the Remington is a "bad buy" or worse to say {sic} "I want all Remingtons to be bad" is a stretch at the very least. I'm not the one that launched into a sermon about "junk" safeties, etc.\

I am aware that rifles like women to name one example, are a matter of taste, and in Remington's case, they are not the most suitable rifle for dangerous game (and neither are Weatherbys) which was the crux of the original post.
As far as just owning one Remington, I never purchased a Yugo, but I somehow figured out they weren't exactly a Mercedes-Benz. Remingons are very accurate rifles indeed and no doubt good value, but bench shooting and SWAT does not a good dangerous rifle make. And I think I'm done with this one, I hope. jorge

jorge,

I don't know about the Wby in the 378 based calibres and the Remington ABG Rifle with single stack in line feed with those rifles

I would bet if we had to cycle each of those rifles 1000 times and a staggered feed CRF a 1000 times and especially in large bore sizes with blunt bullets, then the staggered feed CRFs would jam most often...an doubly so if the bolts had to be closed as quickly as possible.

Also, with those single stack magazines double feed is not so simple because the cartridge being fed holds the next one down to far for the bolt to grab, well it does up to a point of bolt travel. But unlike stagger feed jam this is operator error. The stagger feed jam is not you fault.

And what about HS Precision. One piece bolt, centre line feed and the Sako style extractor. You can also buy the HS Precision magazine system for the Rem 700.

If one looks at the gunsmithing forum, then failure to feed is a common posting and virtually bet every rifle involved will be staggered feed CRF.

Mike

Jorge, Gosh darn it you have my apolagies again. When you said Remingtons have glued on bolt handles I rather thought it implied that you felt they were not only a poor buy but junk. My bad.

Hey Mike, Ray ATkinson had a good observation on this very subject that makes perfect sense: EXTRACTION is really the central issue, if you can't remove a stuck case, you're out of business and that's where a CRF's edge comes into play also. That riveted on extractor just does not inspire confidence.

CW: "Brazed" is a form of gluing isn't it? And I never said they were a "bad buy." heck, I see them in Wal-Mart all the time for great prices, but since this is a FORUM where folks proffer ideas (hopefully based on facts and personal experience), in *MY* view Remington's aren't a good choice for dangerous game. When coupled with all the other opinions and personal experiences from folks who post here and who have varying degrees of credibility, I just would not own another one. jorge

A lot of Remingtons end up in the hands of riflemen who understand accuracy on a piece of paper at the range, but don't know how to evaluate a rifle or action from any other standpoint of consideration.

I find it odd that, in this day of CNC machinery, Remington hasn't seen fit to upgrade the Model 700 action from the fundamental Model 721/722 design that was created as a production expedient to conform to circa-1948 mass-production technology as it existed at the time.

I can't think of one single reason to select a Model 700 rifle or action for African big game hunting purposes in lieu of a better-designed, better-made CRF action, but I can think of a whole host of reasons NOT to go with the Model 700 for African use.........

AD

jorge,

That is a valid point but assuming normally loaded ammo the problem encounted with rifles is feeding the cartridge into the chamber. The sites gunsmithing forum continues to illustrate.

As Allen has said many times about D'Arcys rifles, he is about specially made magazines to get the combination of staggered feed and CRF to feel reliably. And I would imagine D'Arcy has worked overtime to get it right with the 458 Lott.

The Rem 700 ABG or another Rem using HS Precision in line feed will feed anything with ease. Put a Sako extractor on the Rem and that removes the problem of replacing an extractor in the field.

Just for the record, I don't Rem 700s, the ground off rivot on the magnum models makes me break out in hives, I hate the detachable recoil lug, even though it works better than integral lugs because it leaves more stick material behind the lug. I also hate the way they have been able to make the alloy floor plate in the stainless models not only look like platic but feel like plastic as well.

Mike

Allen,

They pobably don't change them because they are big sellers and work.

One must keep in mind that the average rifle buyer is probably like us buying a computer.

The feel light amd smooth to the buyer in the gun shop. CRF in average junk rifles is more trouble than it is worth, especially with a rebarrel to another calibre. The CRF like the M70 also feels sluggish in the bolt travel when the buyer tries it because of the extracting dragging.

Also, the very large majority of shooters fire the majority of their shots under sing shot range conditions and then the CRF feels not so good since they won't load from the magazine.

Mike

Mike

How are the magazines loaded on these single stack guns you feel would be more reliable than staggered feed ?

I've never handled one , but if you got to tip them over and load from the bottom , it would seem to be a pretty unhandy piece when you might want to slip in a couple extra cartridges .

I'd also guess that M-700 African model you mention would not exactly be the the smart shopper's choice of the week . I'd guess it would have a retail well in excess of $1000 american , and at it's heart it would still be a $500 Remington......

sdgunslinger,

I have not seen the ABG Rifle one but assume it is like HS Precision and detachable.

Weatherby on the 378 based calibres as you probably know can have the floor plate opened and rounds dropped in while the bolt is closed on a round.

HS Precision also supply a 10 round magazine.

Mike

PS,

Hendershots as that them at $1499US

http://www.hendershots.net/gunview.asp?GunID=191

I think the pushfeed is fine for those who insist on using it and I think that is what you should use if you want...serves you right!

"Weatherby on the 378 based calibres as you probably know can have the floor plate opened and rounds dropped in while the bolt is closed on a round."

That would seem to be quite unhandy when chasing roos across a wheat stubble(grin) . Also in my view , detachable magazines suck .

I think I'll stick with a top loading staggered feed magazine , thanks .

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

I showed up with a Remington 721 and my PH asked what caliber it was and I said......300 H&H. He thought a bit and finally said......."I guess we can make an exception for this gun this time."

Suppose you had shown up with a Remington 700 in .300 Weatherby, or a 721 that had been rechambered from .300 H&H to .300 Weatherby? I guess in that case both the shooter and the gun would be thrown in the river, never to be seen again?

There is still no bolt action equals the old SMLE with the 10 shot detachables for chasing roos.

By the way, I bet can load a 378 type magazine with a scoped rifle quicker than you can load the magazine through the top and doubly so if night time when spotlighting and triply so when the vehichle is on the move.

Mike

There ain't many flies on the SMLE . A good tough gun , but didn't the military tend to load them thru the top with stripper clips ? And if you happened to lose a magazine , there should be plenty of spares under military conditions .

I suppose you can get used to a bottom loading gun , it's all in what you're familiar with...

Military did load with clips but when we used them we had spare magazines.

With Wbys, if the rear spring bias is weak a perso that is quick with the bolt will jam one every time. That happens because when the bolt is open a row a lugs is on the bottom and the bolt nose protrudes and hench the cartridges are helf below the bolt nose. If the spring is weak and the person is quick the case won't come up quickly enough and the front lug hits the case head. Although I have never seen it done under firing condtions.

If you want to try an experiemnt get a 416 Wby and M70 416 Rem and load 400 Hornadys backwards in each case. Then feed as fast as you can. The Wby wins easy because of the in line feed and of course having a much bigger chamber diameter chamber.

Mike