If a fellow were building up a rifle for a professional hunter to purchase from him; what caliber would you suggest it be?

I know this is going to open up some opinions, but I would just like to get some food for thought on this. I'm thinking of mainly dangerous game, where "stopping" power is a serious consideration. I've seen videos with PH's using doubles as well as bolt rifles. Some of the "culling" hunters such as Ron Thompson (sp) used a .458 among others because of capacity for more rounds.

Would you think a 505 Gibbs, 500 Jeffries 500 A-Square and some "different" type calibers would be purchased by PH's, or would they go with the 458, 416 Rigby, 404, .375's because ammunition is maybe easier to obtain? Or is ammunition a real consideration with today's (FED EX, UPS) capabilities?

While we're on it. Wouldn't a synthetic or laminated stock be a little more "UP" to the task of seeing years of use than the typical walnut stock? Would they prefer open sights, scopes or both (removable scope mounts etc)?

These are just some ?'s that have been rambling through my brain. As someone who would like to build bolt action rifles for a professional type hunter I would like your opinion what would suffice as an honest to goodness "best all 'round" used 7-9 months out of the year dependable rifle.

My opinion is:

CRF Winchester/Mauser type like Dakota, Montana Actions, Model 70 etc in 458 or 500 Jeffries, 24" barrel on a glass bedded laminated stock, leather covered recoil pad, German Claw mounts, 1 V type rear blade sight on 1/4 rib, gold bead front sight with ivory flip up night bead, 1" removable leather sling (such as the latigo sling by Brownells) in the "flush" mount swivel style. Minus scope would weigh in 10-11 lb range. I would also try and get 3 down magazine and 1 up for total of 4 cartridges.

I'm sorry for the long post, any replies would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Coon

I would prefer my PH to carry a double of a substantial caliber. I would not insist on the proverbial "stoppers", I think .450 NE, .470 NE, .475 No.2, .500 NE max. have better penetration.

As the hunter being coached I would use a bolt of 9.3 to .423 caliber.

Hermann

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The nicest handling "stopper" I ever shot was a .458 Lott...it started life as a pre'64 Model 70 and had been rebuilt in South Africa...wood was plain but dense and the stock well-proportioned with a think butt....the only sights were a single fixed shallow V for the rear sight and the front sight was a big ivory bead (warthog I think) with a removable hood. Thick, solid recoil pad and trigger set at what I would guess 3 lbs and broke like a glass rod. This was a straight out tool but balanced like a fine shotgun. It was a serious rifle for a serious job...not one single thing on it that didn't need to be there...as I recall it weighed about 10 lbs but handled like it weighed 2 pounds less....recoil was very manageable. I don't think the PH would have traded it for a new Rover.

Coon,

A PH is normally (until he has made a video..) a poor man. A double is expensive and most PH:s can not afford one. A double is without question the best. A 470 or 500NE with 24 inch barrels is excellent

The PH guiding clients for the big five can carry anything from a 416 and up.
The really big bores like 505 Gibbs is too heavy to carry around, unless you have a reliant gunbearer...

Since his backup rifle is a life insurance it should be as reliant (simple) as possible.

No scope, shallow v sight and ivory bead.

Syntetic stock is excellent especially if he hunts different areas.

A back up rifle is a working tool, nothing else. Best quality a PH can afford of course.

Bjorn

/

Here are the photo's and description of mine. Although it is amazingly like the Rifle DB Bill described. Mine has a synthetic red fiber optic front bead, not the white ivory, mine has a machined one piece non-adjustable ghost ring Peep sight regulated for shots from 30-100 yards instead of open sights.

I used a custom made laminated stock instead of solid walnut. It has a thick butt section and weighs 9.5 pounds, with the heavy 22" barrel. Like Bill said it handles just like a fine shotgun and feels like 8 pounds if that! My trigger is even the same, as well as the action to the one he described. Coincidence? I think not.....it works!

http://home.earthlink.net/~rifles/_wsn/page4.html

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It seems there is never enough time to do things right, but always enough time to do them over

JJ,
A very nicely done DGR. I noticed the very large bolt handle knob, This would be a great feature for fast reloading, especially when wairing gloves! Who made the ghost ring, and front sight?

Coon the rifle I would build for myself if I were a PH in Africa, would be as follows:

I would start with a BRNO 602 in 458 Win Mag, which already holds 5 rounds, 4 down, and one in the spout! Then I would get a laminated stock about the same as JJ's and rechamber the factory barrel to 458 LOTT, and make sure it fed properly. I'd have some TALLY mounts installed in the orginal scope base bosses on the rifles, then pick up a TRIGICON 1.5-4x24 scope to use in a lion, or Leopard blind, or in any very dim light application. The irons are OK on the BRNO, and that is the way it would be used except in the afore mentioned low light application of over bait cats. This set up would weigh in at around 10 lbs loaded, useing Ironsights, and 10.5 with a scope installed, also loaded!

I already own double rifles, and one of them would be my first choice, but you said "BUILD a rifle", which I take to mean a BOLT RIFLE.

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 04-04-2002).]

John Ricks assembled the entire package for me. The only thing I have done is work up the loads to help him regulate the sights, final finish of the wood and the checkering. The pictures I directed you to are from his web site. Scroll down and click on "home" and you can see the rest of his site.

On a DG rifle for a "sporstman" I agree with your set-up. For the PH the scope is not needed even in a leopard or lion situation. Especially for leopards the PH will be watching through the field glases in that failing light, not through a scope. There will be zero chance of a second shot if that leopard jumps or falls out of sight. Follow ups in the dark will be likely done with a 12 guage for leopard. I would not use a scoped for a follow up unless it's all I had. However I know a lot of PH's and not all of us agree on the best DG rifle arrangment. It's why we have so many options!

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It seems there is never enough time to do things right, but always enough time to do them over

Thanks for the replys. Would there be a "shortage of ammo problem" in Africa for the 458 LOTT? Or do safari companies think far enough ahead to have an ample supply?

I like you guys' thinking as far as a professional type rifle is concerned. I might be pursuaded to try the LOTT out but I don't want to rule out the possibilty of someone else wanting to go with a Jeffries...

Thanks,

Coon

I would suggest something very serious here that you may not have put enough thought into.

Have you shot any rifles this size before? It's not like a really powerful 338 or 300 mag. These rifles have a serious level of recoil. Recoil that can hurt, shock, or cause permanent flinching for people who are unfamilliar with shooting them.

As far as the ammo is concerned the Safari company has nothing to do with the ammo. The PH's own their guns and they supply their own ammo. Safari campanies have nothing to do with ammo supplies for the visiting hunters or the PH's. Maybe the Safari company would be asked to supply ammo for a visiting hunter or for the rental guns they have. That would be the exception rather then the rule.

I have apprehension to let people shoot them with full power loads as I don't want the rifle getting dropped or tossed out of their control when the trigger is pulled. If you have not seen the videos of Saeeds rifles getting dropped or tossed into the air then you should see them.

I would not be in a position to just pick one up and shoot it without having gradually grown up with high powered rifles all my life. I have seen plenty of guys chip there teeth when the gun goes off or have a serious shoulder problem. getting hit in the eye is the least of yourproblems with some of these big bores. Bursitis of your shoulder is a real likely hood from the pounding these rifles can give you.

Put some thought into just going out and buying or building a rifle of this size. The cost of a real nice big bore will likely be 3 grand or more without a scope. Not to mention the very expensive ammo.

The wear and tear on your body to shoot them is significant. I know a lot of people here write about the various big bores they have and the power and accuracy. However the truth be told few will take one out plinking and fewer yet use them at all other then the few token shots per year to see if they work.

I would much prefer a deadly accurate 375HH or 416 to a big bore rifle as a visiting hunter.

[This message has been edited by JJHACK (edited 04-05-2002).]

coon,

Just for your info., my Zim. PH shoots a .450 Ackley Mag. Custom built by John Bolliger (Mountain Riflery, Inc. - Pocatello, Idaho). Mod. 70 Action, laminated stock, shallow v rear site, ivory bead.

JJ:

I agree whole heartedly with your comments and your .458 Lott is very similar to mine, except that as I am a client, mine has a 2.5X Leupold Compact in Talley Mounts, a Talley Peep as a backup sight, and a gold bead front sight. Your comments about being able to manage the recoil of the Lott are also appropriate, and are why I shoot mine at least once a month. I notice that if I shoot it less frequently, the recoil is harder to manage.

JJ,
Does your Lott recoil harder than a 416 Rigby if so how does the Lott compare to the 577 T. Rex. The reason I ask I question my own ability to handle a hard kicking rifle. But I would love to have a 416 Rigby.
Bryan

7X57

Rifles have to be judged for recoil in person. The weight of the gun, stock fit for the individual person shooting, loads, recoil pad etc. etc. I am in no position to tell anyone what gun kicks harder then another unless I have shot them.

Sorry but it's not that easy. The basic jist of Recoil for me is that the heavier the bullet the more recoil you have. I keep it that simple. The rigby does not shoot 500 grain bullets so I doubt all else being equal it will recoil as hard as a 458 lott. However the worst nightmare of a rifle I have ever shot in my life, even worse then a 460 weatherby was the 378 weatherby. As far as I'm concerned that is an unusable gun in the style I shot it. It was only shooting a 300 grian bullet jj

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It seems there is never enough time to do things right, but always enough time to do them over

Most PH's in RSA that hunt dangerous game prefer a 375 or 458, and the availability of ammo is improtant....

Most PH's in Zimbabwe seem to like the 416 in a bolt gun and they seem to like the English bolt guns. Lots of them have them.

Tanzania PH's almost to the man have doubles, most of them acquired from eary days when they sold cheap as wall hangers and ammo was not available..Many handed down from father to son...and they have a more required need for them in Tanzania for the most part.

That has been my observation with the PHs in my circle of friends, at least...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 7x57:
Hi 7x57,
Take a look on my website at www.470mbogo.com and look at the recoil test etc that I did. Both claibers you've mentioned are there. The explanation of the tests are in the text. There is also a video of shooting my 470 Mbogo with a 500 grain bullet at 2500 fps just for comparison. I shoot quite a few big bores and have learned to handle them. I think with practice any of the big bores shooting a 500 grain bullet in the 2300 fps area can managed quite quickly. If you intend on loading yourself just download and work your way up. While Canuck had my 500 A-Square the first video he showed to me looked like the gun was getting the best of him and the last video you would think he was shooting a 375. It's just a matter of practice. I think you would have the feel and master a 416 Rigby with factory ammo within the first two boxes. Make sure you have a good recoil pad on your gun.

470 Mbogo

I want to thank all of you for the fine posts and discussions. I do shoot big bores at times. My "normal" deer hunting rifle is .375. I've fired the .416 rigby quite a few times as well as some 50 cals. I've always felt recoil was based on certain circumstances.

How you're positioned - bench, standing bench, etc.

Weight of rifle - this in my opinion has a lot to do with recoil management. A big bore 416 and up, in my opinion, should start at 10#'s and go up from there.

Does the stock fit you - more important than weight

How you hold the rifle

If you shoot at targets only your going to feel "recoil" a lot more.

In the hunting situation I can't say that I ever "feel" recoil. Its there of course but your not concentrating on it.

To paraphrase Ron Thompson again who like the 458 very much he said that he didn't notice recoil in the culling situation. He said "If I were to shoot off the bench I would probably flinch after the 4th or 5th shot." From a man who lived through close to 5,000 kills...

Just as was stated earlier. It takes practice.

Thanks,

Troy

Hi All,

I had my working / stopping rifle built by Bloemfontein Custom Rifles, simply because nothing �off-the-shelf� matched my working requirements. I have several other big bores, all are original �classics� which I use occasionally for my own pleasure rather for working purposes.

My basic requirements for a working dangerous game rifle have been and will remain as needing a reliable rifle that fits me well and �shoots where I look� i.e. it�s perfectly set up for my style of instinctive shooting.

Secondly it must be �robust� to remain functional and reliable in a some harsh conditions, I do my darnedest to �pamper� every single firearm I own, but due to experiences in the real world of hard knocks I chose to go with a �indestructible� synthetic straight / classic style stock built by Harrison Brothers in Cape Town, it has a extra wide Uncle Mikes recoil pad. (since had a very nice custom dense walnut stock built, I do really prefer wood).

Next requirement was for a large capacity, strong, reliable Magnum action; the choice went to a BRNO 602. The action was �trued� and feeds like a dream, magazine capacity is 5 x 458 Lott. Barrel is a standard 458 BRNO �poldi electrik steel� , has been trimmed back to 22�, and has wide Vee express sights, barrel band sling swivel and large bead front sight.

As for caliber, I considered a bunch of factors, but the main criteria ended up as being stopping power vs. practicalities of securing an ammo supply and / or reloading components in deepest darkest Africa. I opted for a 458 Lott; stopping power is obvious, getting 450 cal bullets locally poses no problem, formed 458 Lott brass is available from DENEL PMP at ZAR5.00 each (1US$ = ZAR11.00), local powders do produce acceptable loads, plus 458 Win Mag ammo is no problem in a pinch. I took 60 x 458 Win Mag rounds and 140 x 450 Lott rounds with me for last season�s 6 months of Safari�s, sounds like a heck of a �lott� of ammo but I used my rifle to shoot for the pot, and did a bit of practicing � I like shooting, ended up using my rifle 4 times to finish wounded game which was more than I would typically expect.

So in summary, my stopping rifle is a 22� barreled, 8.5lbs 458 Lott built on a BRNO602 barreled action, I have never managed to shoot more than 15 rounds from the bench without really really taking strain, however in the field full house loads are not noticed, when I need to shoot adrenalin takes care of any recoil. A major bonus is that it will shoots very accurately, I have been to get �clover leaf� groups at 75 yards. Interesting point I discovered on the backing paper on my target stand; I shot 5 batches of 3 rounds on 5 different targets while developing loads, on checking the backing paper while packing up, I was very happy to see that all 15 shots formed one �big 4 inch group� � much much better than M.O.B (minute of buffalo) and that with loads ranging from 2000 to 2300 fps.

Will posts pics here after weekend, need reminders as to how to do that please!

Regards

As I have written here in the past many times. Of the Other PH's I know including Peter, they are not using the super powered loads Americans have determined to be best. From Peters post( another very experienced PH) he is shooting 500 grain bullets between 2200 and 2300fps. By American standards that is "downloaded ammo" yet he is here typing this so it must still be working. He guides Buffalo hunters on a regular basis too!

There is a lot of hype in the Big bore chat that goes on here and on other site's. The reality is, if the load equals or exceeds the basic concept(not the reality) of the 458 Win mag or the 470 nitro express(480 grains at 2150) it will work just fine. More may be better but not at the cost of additional pressure or accuracy. Not to mention an exponential increase in recoil!

If this is working for all the folks I work with in Zimbabwe, Mozambique, and South Africa, and the dozens if not hundreds of PH's still using the plain 458 Win Mag. Then that level of "power and function" should speak for itself. Mike Lagrange( over 6000 elephants to his credit) said himself that if he was pushed into taking only one rifle to cull elephant, considering all possibilities with the gun. He would likely pick the 458 Win Mag so long as he could load it properly with good bullets. That is a huge statement for the pathetic power most of the posts here reflect on the 458 win mag!

However if your into just how much power you can manage then that's your interest, not the logical minimum load. Those shooting 500 grian bullets over 2300 fps are really packing a lot of power. Is it excess power? is there such a thing as excess power? I don't know? But I do know there is excess recoil, and premature bullet failure. I have seen those effects first hand.jj

[This message has been edited by JJHACK (edited 04-05-2002).]

You tell 'em JJ. I agree 100%, which is why the load I shoot in my Lott/Watts uses a 500 grain bullet and chronographs at 2200 fps on an 80 degree F day. I settled on the 2200 fps load based on Kevin "Doctari" Roberts' recommendations, and after killing 9 animals with my Lott at ranges up to a measured 247 yards, have no regrets.

JJ and 470Mbogo,
I thank you both for taking the time to answer my questions concerning recoil. 470Mobogo I checked out your web site it is very imformative. I hunt with a 7x57 Mauser because I like the round but also for nostalgic reasons. I also have the same nostalgic feelings for the 375H&H and the 416 Rigby and would one day like to own and shoot them both but I don't want a gun sitting in my safe that I will not shoot because I am scared of it. Bryan

What a PH uses for a rifle and what he would prefer to use for a rifle are two different things.

JJ,
Great Post! It's nice to see some real world, practical information disseminated on this forum. Despite all the bad press that the .458 Win Mag gets, I just bought a new .458 Winchester takeoff barrel that's going on my Classic Super Express to replace a 22" .375 barrel that doesn't shoot well. I'm not having it rechambered to the Lott!

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Phil- Life Member NRA & SCI

My PH in Mozambique used something very similar to the rifle described by DB. It was a M98 opened up at the rear to handle a .416 Rem. The barrel was 22" but so thick it looked like a varminter. This gave it the weight to handle the cartridge but still made for a quick, handy bush gun. The stock was black synthetic (the damp of the Zambezi delta is gawd-awful) and the sights a white bead and shallow V. I was impressed with the sheer good sense of the thing and think that it would have been just as smart in .458 Win.

Sarge

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Phil R:
Hi Phil R,
The 458 loaded with 450 grain bullets to 2200 or 2250 fps with good shot placement will do it all. With some of the newer shorter 500 grain bullets you might even get up to the original 2150 fps which is a well proven penetrator.

470 Mbogo

I find it odd that no one has mentioned rifle weight except from the standpoint of having a 11 pound rifle to halt recoil...

Perhaps we don't walk as much as is precieved on these boards and much of our hunting is out of a bakkie...

I have an 8 lb. 404 Jefferys that I carry on the long days afoot, or a 9.3x62 or a 375 H&H none of which weigh very over 9 lbs....I prefer my 9-3/4 lb. 450-400 as a backup rifle or when spot and stalk hunting Buffalo, and will pack it the first few days then it gets a little heavy.

I also have a scoped 416 Rem. M-70 customized that weighs about 10.5 lbs that I seldom use because it's too heavy to pack all day and it has a scope and it's stock is laminated and its surface coat is green!!
I call it my mozambique swamp rifle or my alaskan rifle..Some day I will shoot something with it, maybe this year.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

For the Ph rifle we have always used BRNO zkk 602's in .458 or M 70 Winchesters in .458. They have always worked with locally produced monolithics. As much as I like the .450 Dakota with 550 grs bullets I cannot complain about the .458 it works and that is what we use. There are better rounds, my .470 is one, in my double, I prefer it to the .458. However sometimes .470 NE is tough to find in RSA so clients bring it to us, or we reload.

Ray, this Lott rifle that Johm built for me weighs just over 9 pounds. Because there are no standard open sights it's easy to balance over your shoulder without the open sights digging into your shirt, jacket, or skin! The balance is about perfect and the length makes it feel so much lighter. It handles and feels about like my sub 8 pound(scoped) 30/06. They are just over a pound in weight apart.

Honestly folks carry rifles much more then they shoot them so weight should be an issue. The "sight in" or regulation of the peeps is the brutal part of the job. Once that is done with a rifle designed like this with non adjustable machined out of steel sights. You can rest easy that it will always be zero'd after that one "sight in" event is behind you.

While hunting and shooting or with reduced loads the gun is a pussycat. I't easy to wear a recoil shield, earplugs, headphones, a mouth guard, and a heavy coat for practice or "sight in". You can shoot a 458 or equal rifle all day set up like that without a using a muzzle break.

I have no problems with removable muzzle breaks but I also don't have the need for one right now at this stage in my life. I do think as the body gets older and more frail the pounding takes it's toll to a greater degree. That may be the logical way to reduce weight in the long term and still have a shootable rifle.jj

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It seems there is never enough time to do things right, but always enough time to do them over

JJ,
For what its worth, shooting the big bores is the reason I have chronic bursitas in my neck and shoulders and also why I cannot hear worth a flip and I got all that before the recoil devises and we only had ear plugs or cotton in our ears.

Now is the time for you and others younger than I to take heed, later its too late and you are correct the reason I like the muzzle breaks is age related and it is an alternative to pain.

I also shoot better with a muzzle brake and thats a big plus and obviously the noise isn't a problem as I'm allready near deaf, so what more could one ask, nature protects me now.

I had a conversation one time with Harry Selby and my PH said now that was a real scream fest, eh! what? speak up boy!! speak up hell Harry I'm yelling at you!! Bloody good, keep it up!!

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

In my part of the world PH's carry mostly a 458 Lott as backup rifle, probably because the cases are easy to obtain locally and can be made from 375 H&H brass.

460 G&A allow better balistic and one more round in the magazine, but brass is scarce and very expensive.

The 458 Winchester is not really suitable for PH's work because of his small capacity case, allowing published velocity only with compressed load, that have a very short shelf life before becoming unreliable.

My opinion is:

Tuned up Brno Magnum action (drop magazine, five + 1 round) in 458 Lott 18" barrel (458 uses fast burning powder and you want balance and the capability to swing fast in the bush) on a glass bedded top quality reinforced fiberglass stock with minimal drop at the comb and heel (help to tame recoil and will not warp or scratch easily), absolutely no scope ( with the exception of loads development),large gold bead front sight (with tritium flip up night bead) and a robust, one-piece ghost ring, mounted as low is possible, to bring the line of sight closer to the line of bore.