Here is a link from another thread on AR-Africa.
Assume I have never hunted lion or I have been on 2 previous hunts with no success, this is the 3rd or the next to last day of the hunt. My PH and I see these three males at 60 yards. Shoot? What would the PH tell me to do?
I'm serious. They don't look "old". They don't have a pride or young travelling with them. They would look great in my trophy room. I would do what the PH tells me.
Thanks, Ski+3


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...UgGI&feature=related

My Internet connection is far to slow to even consider downloading the video clip. So my comment is more about the mental and other prepoarations that you should (?) could (?) do even before you get yourself in a position to see these lions and listen to ypour PH's advice.

I'm going to assume that you have read quite a bit about the advice to "shoot only non-pride holding 6 years and older lions" that, even if you are a lay person and don't quite understand everything, you believe it is good advice for lion, hunting and animals in general. It goes without saying that you want to do only good and 'be part of the solution'!. The fact that you have posted this serious question is enough motivation for me that that is indeed the cast. Now you want to know: What does a 6 or 6+ YO lion look like? Listen to the advice of experiended PH's and clients about that.

Let me ask some other questions. How well have you done your homework before finally choosing a Hunting Outfitter? Have you so clearly communicated the request that you wish to shoot only 6 or 6+ YO lion to the "hopeful to book you as a client" Hunting Outfitters? Only if you have done it well enough to actually see a very clear cause in the hunt contract that the Hunting Outfitter has actually taken your desires very seriously.

Here I will give a few examples of the type of clause that I'm referring to. Maybe the HO guarantees that the named PH who will actually guide you has lots of lion hunting and on the foot living lion age "guessinng" experience that a mistake is highly unlikely. How could a HO put his money where his mouth is on such a [reasonable ?] claim?

He could in the contract undertake that he will downgrade your Daily Rate for the "lion hunt" [maybe $ 1000 a day] to those applicable to a non-hunting observer [maybe $ 250 a day ?] if, after you have shot the lion OK'ed by the PH to be minimum 6 YO it turns out that it was actually a <4 YO lion, or maybe even <5 YO, or whatever age you and the HO agree on. This should certainly largely prevent HO's from appointing an inexperienced PH to guide a client with such a clause in his hunt contract. It will also place some pressure on a PH to make very sure of the lion's age before giving the client the OK to shoot. He will know that if he makes a big mistahe he will only be earning plains game PH fees for that hunt.

Another type of clause to want in such a hunt contract is that if the lion actually OK'ed [not if you shoot the wrong one from a group] by the PH is to young, there is no trophy fee to be paid. Fact is that the HO must contractually place himself in a position where he makes no profit from allowing you to shoot a far to young lion. You, wishing to be part of the solution came to Africa to shoot a real trophy lion, and you sure as hell should feel very unhappy if the PH allows you to shoot a non-trophy lion. Why should a HO still make profit from your 'trophy lion hunt' if his PH screws up and allows you to shoot a non-trophy lion? It most probably is your once in a lifetime lion, you want to do right, you communicated this desire clearly beforehand, why shoud a good HO who employs good PH's not be prepared to at least forego his profit from your hunt if there is a screw up?

That's all for now folks! Let me run and go put on my flack jacket.

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

If you needed some dumb-arse contract like that the hunting would no longer be fun and you'd still be setting yourself up for a screwing!!!

I could not see the video but if you walk up and see 3 lions what should your PH do? He should do as good a job as he can checking out these lions and making sure one of them is a mature male and if he is satisfied and you have not studied aging lions you are at his mercy for a decision. You should have become close enough at this stage of the hunt for him to know if this is what you are there for. I had a similar thing but only one lion and it was a very nice maned lion, better than i had seen on 4 hunts and it took my PH about 3 minutes to tell me no. This lion is close but no cigar. It really was that simple we watched him and left.

The link above goes to a log in page, it does not show a video.

A friend told me a story that happened to him a few years ago.

He was hunting lion in Zimbabwe. They saw a young male, which his PH thought was too young to shoot.

He accepted that decision, and continued looking for a mature male.

He finished his hunt, and came back witout shooting a lion.

A few weeks later, his PH told him that may be they should have shot that lion. As the same lion was shot on a neighbouring concession.

thanks Saeed I guess its my computer i can't read it either but these things have a mind of their own sometimes

Personally, I'm pretty sick of hearing the word "mature" in relation to hunting. It's made out like some moral issue. A hunter takes some old animal with broken horns and all is well because it's "mature." True, scars, etc. add character but character for me only goes so far. For something I'm going to put on my wall, I'd kind of like two horns or antlers that are close to their prime that came from an animal not raised in a pen.

As long as an area isn't being over hunted and one wishes to take an animal other than a "mature" one, what does it matter? I think this "mature" stuff is mostly for the benefit of the game farm or safari operator who wishes to divest himself of the sick, the lame and the halt that would otherwise die or have to be culled.

I disagree with you Grumulkin. As a hunter less interested in a pretty trophy than an exciting hunt I see us as replacing the top predators in picking off the old beasties rather than those in their prime.

Personally a gnarled old buff with a busted horn works if I can get within 30 yards and whack him with my 1877 10-bore hammer gun.

The fun in that has little to do with the fluffy lion trophy but I guess that separates the hunter/trophy hunter approach differential. Just my opinion.

The actual trophy to me is incidental, it represents the memory of the hunt rather than the hunt being a memory of getting a 'world class' trophy.

you are right small bore. I wish the safari companies would charge a better rate if you shoot something old and gnarly versus a prime trophy

Thanks guys. Not sure why the link doesn't work..Type this in YouTube... "The Confrontation - 3 male Lions versus 300 Cape Buffalo "

I can see where lion hunting involves many variables not found with other game.

Ski+3

Grumulkin, while what you say may be true for many, most species, it is not true for Lion! Those continuing to take Lion under six will end Lion hunting for all of us!

I have never hunted Africa and will never hunt lion. The issue of 6 year old lions was a new lesson to me after joining AR & it makes sense.

Now having seen the video of 3 males lions versus 300 buffalo, I presume these are young males who are looking to challenge a pride male so that they can take over & get breeding rights. they look awesome & would make a great trophy rug or a full mount. If I was hunting lion (hypothetically of course) Would I shoot one if the PH okayed it? Absolutely.

On the other hand, if I was hunting leopard, I would want a 7 foot leopard minimum. One day I hope to get one.....and 7' 6" would be even better....it would go well with my dad's 2 .....

Small Bore,

I agree 100% with your every single statement or view that you have expressed. Very well articulated.

quote:

Originally posted by gerryb:
....... I wish the safari companies would charge a better rate if you shoot something old and gnarly versus a prime trophy

I agree, but I also assume - and assumption is the mother of all f^%#-ups - that you mean a better for the safari company higher trophy fee??

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

quote:

Originally posted by gerryb:
you are right small bore. I wish the safari companies would charge a better rate if you shoot something old and gnarly versus a prime trophy

We would like you to however we purchase our licenses from the State at a fixed cost.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I have never hunted Africa and will never hunt lion. The issue of 6 year old lions was a new lesson to me after joining AR & it makes sense.

Now having seen the video of 3 males lions versus 300 buffalo, I presume these are young males who are looking to challenge a pride male so that they can take over & get breeding rights. they look awesome & would make a great trophy rug or a full mount. If I was hunting lion (hypothetically of course) Would I shoot one if the PH okayed it? Absolutely.

On the other hand, if I was hunting leopard, I would want a 7 foot leopard minimum. One day I hope to get one.....and 7' 6" would be even better....it would go well with my dad's 2 .....

That is called trophy hunting my friend.

Disagree with Grumulkin and if you have good mature animals to select from and you are looking at length of horn or tusk then why settle for something less? The physical hunt is all important and you get to do a lot of that if you only target mature animals.

quote:

Originally posted by Tom In Tennessee:
Grumulkin, while what you say may be true for many, most species, it is not true for Lion! Those continuing to take Lion under six will end Lion hunting for all of us!

You're probably right. A lion doesn't have horns so advancing age would probably have limited impact on trophy quality. Also, if shooting lions under six would truly significantly impact lion populations in a negative way, I wouldn't want to be a part of that.

Here is the video. I would have shot lion # 2.

Mike

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9fzXmcUgGI

Grumulkin, Male lions will kill all cubs of anothers genes so lioness will come in heat again and allow his progency to be the survivors.....that's why old lone lions are the ones to hunt.

BTW. looked at video again....not much of a judge on aging Lions and would not shoot unless PH insisted the second was "old"....what would drive me crazy is trying to pick out best Buffalo!!! Maybe the last one that chased them off....otherwise, I would whack the dude in the Photo bakkie, take his cool hat and take the sensitive voiced woman back to my tent.