"But hey, if you're so sure I'm wrong, why not name me a single record book that uses weight or size as a criteria for entry?"

FISH

If I was interested in telling people what they want to hear, I'd be an agent and telling them ol' Joe Bloggs who drives a red car because it's faster, wears a copy watch and consistantly produces 225 lb leopards as though weight means something.

As it is, I prefer to speak the truth.

BTW, I also posted pics of TZ leopards that beat the shit out of anything else that's been posted. ........... or did you miss that?

Also BTW, I'm STILL waiting for you instant experts and agents to name a single record book that takes weight, length or even the ridiculous idea of full body volume measurement into consideration.

Justin,

Thanks for the laugh!

quote:

Also BTW, I'm STILL waiting for you instant experts and agents to name a single record book that takes weight, length or even the ridiculous idea of full body volume measurement into consideration.

Keep waiting because that never was the arguement. You keep bringing up the irrelevant hoping that makes you look like authoritarian. All you have proven is your snobery. I will post a big leopard if you want. Just as big as the ones you posted. However I am not sure of his skull measurement.

quote:

BTW, I also posted pics of TZ leopards that beat the shit out of anything else that's been posted. ........... or did you miss that?

No I think you missed several Zim cats posted on the first page. Or does Zim not count since they aren't in your pinkies up club.

Quoted from a very recent report:

"The cat hunting was exceptional with our full quota of leopard and lion/lioness been shot. All leopard were nice mature males to be proud of."

A very honest, down-to-earth statement with no mention of weights

Dam this freaking thread is funny. Instant a$$holes and know it all's. arm chair cowboys who don't like a little honest information from others.They have no Idea what the guy on the other PC is like they have know Idea if he has any integrity or honesty. some people need to get them selves better informed about the things there talking about. It still amazes me how many people who have never lived in africa are self appointed experts on everything African. spending a few day in a hunting camp does not make you an expert. being able to stretch hides over a manikin does not make you an expert.

quote:

.They have no Idea what the guy on the other PC is like they have know Idea if he has any integrity or honesty.

good point, however, if you behave like a deceptive jerk-off, don't be surprised that people take your word for it.

p.s.
when you follow that guy around on your knees, even less will be thought of you.

quote:

Dam this freaking thread is funny. Instant a$$holes and know it all's. arm chair cowboys who don't like a little honest information from others

I have been in the hunting industry for 18 years. I think I might be one step on the ladder above an armchair cowboy. If the guy on the other PC wants my respect he shouldn't have acted like a stuckup snot. By the way I wasn't an instant asshole. That took a lot of time and effort. And you are right. Shakari doesn't like a little honesty from others. Look at him. All these people on this thread could be potential clients for that man, and all he does is argue over what they honestly want, instead of taking a "can do" attitude.

Good grief Steve, give it up man. Nobody is arguing that skull size isn't the only record book measurement that matters. Nobody is disagreeing with that idea.

Other people are simply saying that other criteria matters more to them. It's really quite simple

To continue with the sports car analogy it's like testing a group of cars and pronouncing one the winner because it has the quickest 1/4 mile time.

Well what if some people are interested in 0-60? Or maybe 50-80 roll on speed? Or top speed? Or cornering ability?

Record books matter as much as the stop watch does on track day. Not so much out in daily life and if I will take a bigger body over head size why should I care what someone who claims to be an African expert, simply because he lives there, says?

Besides I have no idea what that has to do with personal preference which is WHAT this whole thread has been about. You do know that right? You do know you are the only one trying to make it about record book criteria.

And if my taxidermist stretches my hide a little to make it more "impressive" who really cares anyway?

To add a little to the original theme of this thread, most of the African PHs would agree that some “big” cats can come from the Limpopo district in SA. Everyone knows the permits are so limited that getting one is likened to a mega-dollar lottery win.

My outfitter was lucky this year and got a permit.

As part of his scouting, he put out trail cams on several of his locations…..take a look at this tom…

(pics below....)

Bob, no offense intended, but you are clearly a fool and an amateur for being impressed with a leopard that has only a 15-3/64ths skull. If you will PM me I will let you know what a trophy is so that you will not be so gullible.

If I had taken this hunt and this boy showed up, I'd hesitate about a picosecond.
Bob

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
Bob, no offense intended, but you are clearly a fool and an amateur for being impressed with a leopard that has only a 15-3/64ths skull. If you will PM me I will let you know what a trophy is so that you will not be so gullible.

Don't worry I'm sure his unscrupulous outfitter mislead him!

Brett

Chaps,

Can we go back to Bearhunter's initial query?

If so he can now assume that big Leopard are taken across the continent.

The hunting of Leopard is a classic pursuit and it is wise not to set your sights to high. To hunt and take a good mature Tom is an achievement in itself and personally I would forsake a few pounds or fractions of an inch for the experience and the location.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Going slightly off topic for a moment. The more I learn about those areas I mentioned, the more it seems to me as though it's almost like there are two separate sub species of leopard in those areas.

Some of the leopards look to be much the same as anywhere else but for some reason others are damn near the size of a lioness and I'd love to be able to see a (simply written) report on the DNA testing of some of the cats there.

P'raps the Aggie team might be able to comment on that?

Could be done...all it takes is MONEY (and permission from the country which Tanz is a problem).

quote:

Originally posted by ddrhook:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Going slightly off topic for a moment. The more I learn about those areas I mentioned, the more it seems to me as though it's almost like there are two separate sub species of leopard in those areas.

Some of the leopards look to be much the same as anywhere else but for some reason others are damn near the size of a lioness and I'd love to be able to see a (simply written) report on the DNA testing of some of the cats there.

P'raps the Aggie team might be able to comment on that?

the aggie team thats your que Lane, Jump in and educate use PLEASE

I have been trying to turn over a new leaf and stay out of these wars now days.

Lane
are YOU ILL!!!! what fun is that next time I'll in texas for a job interview I will come bye and kick you in the leg to see if your OK

Big Leopards can be found in most countries and esp where there has been low hunting pressure - A big cat takes over 6 years to reach big status so any hunting pressure could reduce the chances - that being said these are the prince of predators and prince of the night - some big cats live amongst villages and hunting camps and never get taken and grow old and huge and it takes just one mistake to get an instant green card to the USA.
That said I think that Leopard hunting should be measured on the quality of the hunt - this is a unique animal and is a great trophy no matter how big - so long as its old and not a one hander ( can be picked up with one hand ).
I have had hunters who have been to Africa 5 times and not seen a Leopard after endless hours in the blind only to get success behind our hounds on the ranch - this is leopard hunting no gaurentees - other than a chance of being chewed up a bit by Mr. Spots .
Graeme Pollock

quote:

Originally posted by Safaris Botswana Bound:
Big Leopards can be found in most countries and esp where there has been low hunting pressure - A big cat takes over 6 years to reach big status so any hunting pressure could reduce the chances - that being said these are the prince of predators and prince of the night - some big cats live amongst villages and hunting camps and never get taken and grow old and huge and it takes just one mistake to get an instant green card to the USA.
That said I think that Leopard hunting should be measured on the quality of the hunt - this is a unique animal and is a great trophy no matter how big - so long as its old and not a one hander ( can be picked up with one hand ).
I have had hunters who have been to Africa 5 times and not seen a Leopard after endless hours in the blind only to get success behind our hounds on the ranch - this is leopard hunting no gaurentees - other than a chance of being chewed up a bit by Mr. Spots .
Graeme Pollock

Was going to agree with you till you mentioned the dog bit.

Andrew

So is six an old cat?
If so, I thought they go back in weight and size as they get older?

Most leopard in a good area will reach a very large size by four. Six is real old for a male leopard. The largest leopard I ever saw, and the only leopard I have seen that weighed on a scale over 200 lbs was aged at a four year old if I remember correctly. If I remember correctly from my readings the average age of mortality, without hunting pressure, for a male lion is only four years. For a male leopard its like 2.5 years. These kitties live in a brutal environment, and if you don't grow up fast your ass is grass.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
Most leopard in a good area will reach a very large size by four. Six is real old for a male leopard. The largest leopard I ever saw, and the only leopard I have seen that weighed on a scale over 200 lbs was aged at a four year old if I remember correctly. If I remember correctly from my readings the average age of mortality, without hunting pressure, for a male lion is only four years. For a male leopard its like 2.5 years. These kitties live in a brutal environment, and if you don't grow up fast your ass is grass.

There has been several leopards that have lived beyond 20 years. http://www.google.co.za/#hl=en...&fp=82d887925170decc

Figures seem to vary wildly but FWIW, San Diego zoo claim 23 years in captivity http://www.sandiegozoo.org/animalbytes/t-leopard.html

I don't think it'd be unreasonable to expect a wild leopard in a good area to make 15+ years with a bit of luck and not too much competition.

I've had the pleasure to listen on a few occasions to Keith Begg of the "Carnivore Project" up in Niassa Reserve talking about the Lion and Leopard. I do remember him saying that the older Leopard (the ones he wants to see taken as trophy's)have usually lost a lot of their bulk and weight by that stage in life. I just cant remember what he stated was an old Leopard in his view.
I will Skype Kambako Safaris for this.

In the old days in India a big cat was always measured by length, before skinning. There were two ways, over curves and between pegs. Over curves is where the tape was run along the body from nose to tip of tail. Between pegs is where the animal was stretched out on the ground and two pegs were hammered into the ground at the nose and tip of the tail and the length was measured in a straight line.

To my mind this is the best measurement of the trophy. When did you last look at a leopard rug or full mount and say wow he weighed 175lbs or his skull was 18.5", one looks at the overall size of the trophy.

On another note our last client a well known poster on AR just shot 2 leopards in Zim and another client probably shot the heaviest lion in Zim this year - there we go again .

Arjun
http://huntersnetworks.com/content.php?page=agency

quote:

Originally posted by JustinTimberline:
I think head size over body is way overrated. Which would you take?

Given a choice, I would definitely shoot the top one.

How does size in the Kafue compare on average to the Luangwa? And no Andrew I'm not a skull measuring kind of guy.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
If I remember correctly from my readings the average age of mortality, without hunting pressure, for a male lion is only four years. For a male leopard its like 2.5 years.

Perhaps your figures include cub deaths? I wonder if its a good bit different if you compute average life of those that reach maturity?

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
How does size in the Kafue compare on average to the Luangwa? And no Andrew I'm not a skull measuring kind of guy.

The Kafue Leopard can get to massive proportions. I remember one cat coming in just as it was getting dark and judging from my markers on the tree he was twice the size of a good average tom. Note this cat found our blind that night and never came back.

The Luangwa Leopard are generally sleeker and lack the bulk of their Kafue brothers. However the Luangwa throughout has a greater concentration of Leopard.

quote:

Given a choice, I would definitely shoot the top one.

Trying to improve the herds genetics Wendell?