Do you ever notice watching TV shows on African hunting, how difficult it appears for the hunters to cycle their bolt after a first shot? I bet 90 % of the time it is NOT a smooth cycle!
Just curious if it is anxiety of the moment, not being familiar with their weapon, or a combination? Perhaps it is the camera making them nervous?

I would think is lack of practice with the rifle being used.

I don't watch hunting shows a lot but it seems that more often than not the shooter screws up the shooting sequence in some way. The one that really drives me crazy is when they don't even reload after the shot but look around at the camera and start the hooting and high fives. I've often yelled at the TV "Reload and watch your animal".

Mark

The ones that bother me are the guys who stop their brass from ejecting in the action, because they don't want to lose it. You're on a 30K safari, and are fretting about a $1.00 case. Tell your 2nd tracker or game scout beforehand to pick it up!

What a great way to jam your rifle, just when the buff heads your way and you're farting around. probably told the PH not to back up your shot also.

If you want to see a quick reload and cycle of the action - watch Saeed in action on any of the videos on AR. He is quick and accurate on the first, second and third shots.

quote:

Originally posted by ddrhook:
I would think is lack of practice with the rifle being used.

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Posted 08 March 2010 18:28 Hide Post
I would think is lack of practice with the rifle being used.

or any other rifle most likely

True that one!

I believe it is the deer hunter in them that says well you shot him now what,is there a need to shoot him again? I think they simply zone out, and hear nothing said to them. I have seen on film where the PH told the client to re-load his magazine, and he simply started walking toward the downed Cape buffalo, with an empty case in the chamber.

Then you see the guy who takes the rifle down from his shoulder to work the bolt, looking at the rifle, and looses the buffalo.

It isn't always the client that has a problem recharging the chamber, sometimes it is a faulty rifle! I saw a film with PH when getting ready to follow up a gut shot lion, and when he worked the bolt on his 458 Win Mag the cartridge stove-piped when it came out of the magazine. If that had happened with a charge in motion, it could have been real dicey! Shortly afterward a lion charged him, he fired one shot, and never chambered another round in that same rifle, before the lion was on him. I don't know ithe the rifle stove-piped or if the lion just got to him too quickly. However if the rifle stove-piped on me once I would have changed rifles. This PH now uses a Merkel 470NE double rifle.

Boddington says as long as the animal is on his feet he continues to shoot, that is my take as well!

I have notice Saeed is not only fast reloading but he has great mussle control and never has his finger on trigger while moving. he should give the guys on TV here leasons on gun safety. I have been shooting since childhood myself and I'm still practicing for my next hunt every day now. with both 30-06 and 548win mag

This kind of criticism is why I haven't filmed - and don't plan to film - any of my safaris.

MR
I'm with you on this one. I don't want anybody filming my stupid moves. I know I have bad habits and don't need too many folks reminding me of them.
I did the "catch your brass" on my first animal a Red Hartebeest. I had practiced rapid fire drills, but a life as a cheapie reloader brass scounger overrode my six months of practice. That evening I dreamed up a new mantra. "Catch your brass, loose your ass!" Even though it was plains game, I got the message behind my steel plated skull. After that, second shots were in the chamber before the gun settled back on my shoulder, just like I practiced.
Bfly

I think other really piss poor demonstrations are related to reloading.

If you are familiar with your gun, you should be able to pull the bolt back about 3/4 of the way push the cartridge off the extractor back into the mag well and then top of the mag with a round from or two from your belt.

Quite easy to do with about 10 minutes worth of practice.

I've never quite understood the failure to immediately reload nor the inability to bring ones rifle into play to begin with, but then combat conditioning probably helps. There are some great training courses available today but it seems the folks who take them are the ones who need them the least. I think these programs would be tremendously useful to African hunters. JMO.

+1 I do not know if it is the camera or editing but what appears to be unfamiliarity with their weapon kills me.

• Don’t chamber a second round immediately
• Look away from the target if they do chamber a round
• Carry their weapon over their shoulder when going in to finish the animal including DG
• Waiting to be told to reload.
• Wounded DG and they stop put in their ear protection ( I am sure I will hear about this but if something can kill you I am not worried about donating my ear to for a transplant.) In that situation hearing is not the first priority on my list

It seems that there are lots of problems running the bolts fluidly and getting the next round into the chamber. Most times this occurs with elephants and buffalo. It also seems to take an absolute eternity to get the gun reloaded. I guess its just the excitement of the moment. If there was a charge, it would be solely up to the PH to save the day.

Defensive shooting lessons include immediate reload and doing a 180 to look for other BGs.I'd do the same for DG.
A question here for bolt gun shooters - thumb and forefinger or palm of hand for bolt operation ??

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:
It seems that there are lots of problems running the bolts fluidly and getting the next round into the chamber. Most times this occurs with elephants and buffalo. It also seems to take an absolute eternity to get the gun reloaded. I guess its just the excitement of the moment. If there was a charge, it would be solely up to the PH to save the day.

The double guys aren't any better in these videos, countless shots of guys pulling the front trigger again and fumbling to get new rounds into the gun.

mete

Palm is the correct discipline as taught to trainees on the Springfield but I must say that thumb and forefinger are what I use.

Mark

I suspect a lot more hours spent shooting off a bench than shooting standing is the real culprit, and I stand guilty of this!
Peter.

Play the High Power game for a few years and you will become very proficient at cycling the bolt.(That is if you use a bolt gun) I use a combination of both the fingers and palm, otherwise known as the hand.

quote:

Originally posted by GeoffM24:

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:
It seems that there are lots of problems running the bolts fluidly and getting the next round into the chamber. Most times this occurs with elephants and buffalo. It also seems to take an absolute eternity to get the gun reloaded. I guess its just the excitement of the moment. If there was a charge, it would be solely up to the PH to save the day.

The double guys aren't any better in these videos, countless shots of guys pulling the front trigger again and fumbling to get new rounds into the gun.

Agreed. I recall an episode where the guy was reloading a double with extractors and he could not get the spent casings out. He finally just inverted the gun and shook them out.

I was taught early to cycle all of my cartridges through the rifle whether they were factory or reloads before putting them in a box to take hunting. But you're right I've seen more hunters either jamming their bolt actions or taking forever to eject and feed the next round. Definitely a lack of practice. Which I don't understand since it's a lot more fun to rapidly shoot 3 water jugs than shoot for groups from a bench, particulary with the 458's and up!

Best Regards,

Chuck

Eezridr: Most of the time you're seeing that on TV, it is a staged shot; meaning set up and re-created. That means the person holding the gun has actually reloaded a spent cartridge into the chamber so the camera operator can get some footage of the shooter pulling the bolt back, the cartridge ejecting and then the the faked look of concern or excitement from the bold hunter.

Well if you've ever tried to reload a spent cartridge into your chamber and pushed the stack of bullets in your magazine downward and hoped for smooth cycling---you know herein lies the problem.

The blown/expanded neck or shoulder of a spent cartridge once ejected is sometimes difficult to reload in a rifle with the expectation of smooth cycling.

And that's what you're seeing on TV when the shooter shucks the bolts forward and backward holding to eject the cartridge, and then reload a bullet from below. It's doesn't always immediately work the "second time."

Many of today's riles require what I call would "settling" of the loaded bullets in the magazine...described as a natural placement and pathway. Upon settling, as the gun is turned up, down, walked with, put back in gun rack etc., miniscule natural adjustments or movements occur with the bullet causing it to find it's natural placement or pathway.

But when re-created so a cameraman can get instant closeup video footage of all this happening, because of gun & bullet ballistic properties described above, it doesn't work right.

I ususally do not have a lot of time to watch Tv shows, I do try on Sunday to catch tracks across Africa. Although rarely sick, i was ambushed by a terrible stomach virus this weekend that left my only possible activity watch the TV.
I watched mostly hunting shows, north america and africa,, the hunters on the Africa shows seemed to have the most inexperienced hunters and more trouble with the rifles. The North American shows were usually the "hosts" of the show and seemed very proficient with their rifles. The African shows,,,hunters or guests with sometimes their kids etc. Several times like Mark said, I found myself yelling at the TV,"Reload you ignorant xyzxz!" It has to be the lack of actual hunting time and experience and the pressure of being on film,as well as the true excitement of where they are, probably easy to zone out for some. It takes a good deal more effort to reload a 458 Lott or a 416 Rigby than it does a 270 winchester. Heavier round, longer action and bolt slide etc. I think on every show the shooter did at least a fist pump, and the shouts of great shot, even when it was a marginal shot,,, TV I guess. I will take watching a bunch of back slappers and fist pumpers over the rest of the crap that was on TV though.

The excitement and adrenaline rush does complicate things, when I quit getting the rush,, maybe it is time for me to sit in camp. I remember my first African animal I shot I did it with a bow, a beautifull Blue wildebeast that I shot at about 20 yards. Having shot countless animals I was surprised at my reaction as well. My buddy was filming the hunt that was with me, I made the shot, a perfect pass through heart shot,,, he ran 10 yards and stopped dead in his trackes, my buddy said, and you can hear this on the dvd, get another arrow,, you can hear me drop it and it clink down the stand,,, the animal goes down, then stands up and starts to walk away,, " he says again,, get another arrow,,, yep,, you can hear me drop that one too, nevertheless the animal fell right there. I had never had the shakes like that after a shot in a long time,, and wasn't bothered the rest of the trip but I have to give those folks who are so geared up and with the adrenaline rush,, a little bit of slack.... We laugh like hell everytime we get togehter and play the DVD listening to me drop arrows and being unable to re string an arrow.

Great memories,,, but on film it looks pretty stupid at times. But, I am willing to go back and capture my bloopers whenever I get another chance to get to AFRICA!

As stupid as it is, I find it difficult not to grab the ejected case. Like someone else said, a liftime habit of brass scrounging is hard to overcome. But I run at least 500 rounds through my rifles I'm going to hunt from offhand positions before I go and just let the brss bounce on the concrete, since a county range is all I have. Screws up a lot of case mouths, but ammo's the cheapest part of the hunt, anyway.

just a side note, on the guns I reload for (all the rifles) I don't care so muich about the brass because of cost, it's the fact that I like to keep it in batches. i.e. 20 pieces. if I lose one, well then I have an uneven number and if replaced they'd different number of times reloaded etc.

Not saying I would do it under these conditions, but I've been hunting before, dropped a round while emptying the magazine (sporterized springfield so no hinged plate) and was on a big boulder, fell down into the brush at the base. I spent probably half an hour later that day looking for the damn thing and never found it.

On my pig hunt I didn't pick up any of my cases. add it to the price of the hunt.

Hopefully this weekend I join the range I've decided on and end of month start my training/practice regimen. After reading so much here I'm going to practice lots of offhand and different field position and really make sure I fire multiple rounds. it's so easy and typical when shooting at the range to fire one, look to see how the hit was, think about it and fire another one.

The second shot???? How about the first? I go nuts every time I see Mike Rogers on SCI's Expedition Safari sssssllllloooooowwwwwlllllyyyyy get into a shooting position, look through the scope then slowly cycle the bolt or take his hand off of the rifle to operate the safety. During this 30 seconds or up to a minute I am yelling at the TV Shoot! Shoot!
My drill is when you get out of the vehicle, a shell goes in the chamber and the safety goes on. When you get on the shooting sticks, the safety goes off and you are ready to go. You typically have only about 10 seconds before an animal runs. If you can't get your gun off faster than that, you might as well stay home. I realize these sequences are typically staged for a TV show but what are they teaching inexperienced hunters? That you can wait for a commercial before you take your shot?

Blacktailer,

If everyone used your discipline there would be far less lost opportunities and game.

Mark

Mike Rogers was the last person I saw fumbling with a Bolt. And it wasn't on dangerous game.

Did anyone notice this morning on Bushnell's Adventures Abroad one of those guys was fumbling with his rifle after a shot. Looked sort of like a stove pipe as he appeared to be trying to get another in slow motion or something after shooting a hippo.
I also like to watch their American Admiration Shots. And the rubber donut is too much.

Today, I saw a couple of guys hunting in Africa carrying their rifles by their scopes.

Another person shot an animal then cylced the bolt slow enough that he could manually grap the brass. I guess not worried about a second shot.

Your practice habits carry over and are magnified in a real stress situation.

Four California Highway Patrol Officers were killed by two suspects in Newhall in the early seventies.

After the officers fired and were reloading, the suspects ran up and executed them.

The following investigation showed that after firing and attempting to reload, the officers dumped their empty case into their hands, the way they did during range sessions.

We act the way we train.

The best cycling of a bolt action rifle I've ever seen was by a military sniper (who hunt the most dangerousl animal on the planet)long before I ever went on a safari. I thought that was a very good idea at the time and have been practicing it ever since. As for watching hunters on television, Chris Dorsey is one that drives me nuts; I watched one show where the PH asked him to reload, each time with more volume.

Here's a video of me checking that my friend Gerrie Coetzee of Bloemfontein, (Freestate) did a good job on the feeding and cycling of my .450 Rigby.

I think he did a great job...

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:
Here's a video of me checking that my friend Gerrie Coetzee of Bloemfontein, (Freestate) did a good job on the feeding and cycling of my .450 Rigby.

I think he did a great job...

Nice!!!

Great video maybe he needs to be a consultant to these hunting tv stars.

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:
The second shot???? How about the first? I go nuts every time I see Mike Rogers on SCI's Expedition Safari sssssllllloooooowwwwwlllllyyyyy get into a shooting position, look through the scope then slowly cycle the bolt or take his hand off of the rifle to operate the safety. During this 30 seconds or up to a minute I am yelling at the TV Shoot! Shoot!
My drill is when you get out of the vehicle, a shell goes in the chamber and the safety goes on. When you get on the shooting sticks, the safety goes off and you are ready to go. You typically have only about 10 seconds before an animal runs. If you can't get your gun off faster than that, you might as well stay home. I realize these sequences are typically staged for a TV show but what are they teaching inexperienced hunters? That you can wait for a commercial before you take your shot?

Blacktailer,
I have been on one of the shows that was filmed in that way you describe. The "shot" that is shown in the TV is taken well after the killing shot is made. They are actually two or three different events filmed at different times, the spliced into the footage. What you see Mike Rogers doing is shooting, but not shooting the animal. He is re-enacting the shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Elton Rambin:
Did anyone notice this morning on Bushnell's Adventures Abroad one of those guys was fumbling with his rifle after a shot. Looked sort of like a stove pipe as he appeared to be trying to get another in slow motion or something after shooting a hippo.
I also like to watch their American Admiration Shots. And the rubber donut is too much.

Those Bushnell guys are a couple of doofusses. I would not feel safe with those guys shooting air rifles.

quote:

Great video maybe he needs to be a consultant to these hunting tv stars.

singleshot, looks like I did not make myself too clear, it was me in the video, my buddy Gerrie just tuned and build the rifle.