.

Alf, I've killed too many varmints and deer in my life to ignore the havoc wreaked by high velocity bullets, solid or expanding. Here, we are addressing the dispachment of large, dangerous animals and the bullets suitable for the job.

Mrlexma - I know little or nothing about the first man to neck up the .378 Weatherby case to .458 but I do have a picture of him in his younger days and he didn't look as though he'd missed too many meals. Nice deltoids.

[ 12-02-2003, 08:45: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

Nickudu,

Stop with the excuses and just admit you're turning into a wimp.

Here's a representative picture of John Buhmiller, who not only has a good claim to having invented the .458/.378 Weatherby (a/k/a the .460 Weatherby), but who also invented the .510/.378 Weatherby (a/k/a the .500 A-Square) and the .470/.378 Weatherby, way back in the mid-'50s.



At least one of those fish is bigger than John, who reportedly weighed, after his 1960 safari, a whopping 127 lbs.

Here's another one of John with somewhat larger prey:



If John Buhmiller could do it with Class IIIs and IVs on over 150 elephant, dozens of cape buffalo and a score or so of rhino (and yes, he did use a .505 Gibbs, too, from time to time), there is hope for all of us well into our old age. Honesty forces me to add that he did use a muzzle brake on his rifles--it didn't bother him, he is reported to have said, because he had "calloused ears."

If I get time, I'll follow your lead and scan and post an excellent article on Buhmiller written by Bob Bell and published in the 2000 Gun Digest.

Like I said, he sure didn't miss that fish dinner!

What's the mathematical term for widening the values thingy?

Like instead of squabbling over differences between 375 and 458 go all the way to the monster bores to get more visible differences.

Someone finally go out and shoot a buff with 11,000ftlbs plus. Stoked Nyatis and Heym 600 nitros at 2450fps+

If there is not much visible difference/stun/knockdown/bad kharma etc then an argument for 416 versus 458 is going to be splitting real fine hairs.

And if there is a notable difference we can at least work back from there.

karl.

PS.
My proviso would be minimum calibre 577 and velocities at least 2500fps.(no slow doubles and nyatis loaded down etc.)
This is the speed where 'splatter factor' flattens small game so at least we will have the hyrdo-thingy maximum covered for the test also..


Karl.

Nickudu,

See, I told you this wasn't over, nor ever will be.

Karl,

"in the limit".

steve

[ 12-02-2003, 18:16: Message edited by: steve505 ]

Will,
If these guys were right there would be no weight divisions in boxing. It's a non-argument for anyone with a lick of sense. Got my new scanner today ... nice.

[ 12-02-2003, 20:27: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

Mrlexma,
If you can shoot that big gun then its the gun for you....I don't shoot the 500s as well as the 416s, I have to concentrate and tell myself now this sob is not going to hurt me, bullshit it will...and I know that.....I have shot them all my life and I have bad hearing, bursitas from shooting them...I don't need them and Richard Lemmer and Pierr'e will varify that..I shoot real good and kill them....If the Lott killed any better than the 416 I have not personally been able to tell it with a proper hit, maybe with a bad hit if will make them sicker...

As Ganyana said the 375 worked fine with no complaints, the 505 worked better...I'm not sure what that means other than perhaps a 505 will hammer them to the ground and a 416 will let them go 10 yards, maybe so...I know the 505 is a better stopper but how much better is my question...

There is no answer to the question, just opinnions and ones as good as the other...I know damn well a 416 or 375 is all the gun I need on Buffalo and to heck with anyone who sez it ain't....I'm not carried away with big bores but I sure respect someone that can shoot them, but have little use for someone who thinks they can shoot them and in fact they cannot....

Hi Richard,
How have you been doing...I bought you a brand new pair of buckskin gloves the other day, I will give them to that worthless brother in law of yours at Dallas..Good to hear from you and stick around here, your experience is a value to this forum and your in some good company with some other PHs that hang their hats here....

Besides I need some help keeping Nick and Will in line, they come untrained from time to time, and someone has to strighten them out, and I'm getting a little long in the tooth for these big boys, they beat me down a little now and then... If only they would respect me in the morning!!

Give us a break, Raymondo. I don't see a single post stating that the .375 and .416's are "inadequate" for ele or buffalo. Only that the larger guns are better. It's like O'Conner once put it, in regard to elk hunting with the .375 (roughly) ".. in what an elk rifles needs, the .375 has it all over lesser cartridges, but just don't tell me it's necessary." The selection of the chambering best suited for onesself, does not preclude the acknowledgment that other choices may be better, in the hands of another. I've stated many times how high a regard I have for the .416's but stand firm on the fact that the Lott, Gibbs, Jefferys, etc., etc., will demonstrate their greater authority, somewhere along the line.

[ 12-03-2003, 17:22: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

Nick,
I told you I am a wuss, I cannot shoot the 500s well, thus my choice, but I still cannot see any great difference in how quick the Buff die, but that may be my penchant for solids, which I always use unless I'm playing with a new soft point, but I doubt it.. I have used both and its not a big deal to me one way or the other, you on the other hand are wringing wet, slobbering and having dooldrums over such nonsence, and your passions has now consumed our good friend Will....

Now there are those brave souls out there who would put you to shame and say your a complete wuss, as is Will, because you do not use the new 700 or 800 express rifles, which wounded and lost an elephant last year btw, and they view your choices with disgust and rightfully so....

You really want me to fold up and admit the bigger the bore the better it kills, but if I did that then no one would bother to even get involved in this thread as it would have no sex appeal what so ever, it would have died on the vine with a couple of posts, don't you know that!

Wish they had a little white flag icon in the Instant Gremlins box. I give up! I just hope that big dog knows where to sleep these days, now that the porch is gone.

Bigger is most definitely better! Once you have driven a 50 you will not willingly go back. BTW, the Woodleigh softpoints driven at around 2500 fps make very big holes, initial diameter .510". Depth of penetration 2 - 4 feet depending upon how much bone is encountered in route.

No BS just the facts as I have witnessed them.

Scott

Nickudu--I just got a PM from the ghost of Karamoja Bell. He says to tell you Ray is right. There is no elephant walking who can't be stopped with a .275 Rigby. He says bigger bores are just a waste of powder, brass and lead. He claims he shot the big dog with his Anglicized Mauser and it killed him deader than Elvis. Will is correct. This will never end. So what?

---------------

Smart people learn from the mistakes of others and make up their own minds. Dumb people let other people make up their minds for them and don't even learn from their own mistakes.

mrlexma

This one time, I shot this Godzilla action figure with my pellet rifle...

MrLexma - That's all "BS" ... I saw Elvis, not a week ago, in Prattsville, New York.

In the only personal experience that applies, the buffalo in my signature was NOTICEABLY more 'impressed' by the .475/500gr. bullets I hit him with, as opposed to the .375/300gr. bullets I started that fight with!

George

Nick,
There hope in the future, I just bought the nicest English Whitworth, with a dark chocolat stock, M-70 Gentry safty and worked over by Gentry in .458...I'll punch it out to a Lott and I'm doing all this for you!! Yours and Wills constant nagging and whining at me has taken its toll, and deep in my soul I know your right...

I would like to take this opertunity to invite you and Will to my below 45 caliber burning to take place Jan.1,2004 as I have turned over a new leaf, and my next project is a 50 caliber at 2400 FPS...I hates small calibers from this day forward....Maybe I'll keep my 404 and 416 for plainsgame, and my 375 for elk and deer, skip the invite, I don't think I'll burn them that was a bit rash...

I think this Whitworth needs a new stock and a 26" barrel and I don't like the bolt and a drop box is a must, hmmmmmmmmm

Nick,
There hope in the future, I just bought the nicest English Whitworth, with a very dark chocolat stock, M-70 Gentry safty and worked over by Gentry in .458...I'll punch it out to a Lott and I'm doing all this for you!! Yours and Wills constant nagging and whining at me has taken its toll, and deep in my soul I know your right...

I would like to take this opertunity to invite you and Will to my below 45 caliber burning to take place Jan.1,2004 as I have turned over a new leaf, and my next project is a 50 caliber at 2400 FPS...I hates small calibers from this day forward....

Well er a maybe I'll keep my 404 and 416 for plainsgame, and my 375 for elk and deer, skip the invite, I don't think I'll burn them that was a bit rash...

I think this Whitworth needs a new stock and a 26" barrel and I don't like the bolt and a drop box is a must, hmmmmmmmmm, a winter project coming up...It really is a nice gun as is. One of the best Whitworths I have seen..

Ahhh ... a brand new porch for "FIDO". I still held hope, you would come to your senses. You can alawys count on me and Will to help revive you, should you suffer a relapse.

Are big bores better?

It doesn't really matter. We hunt for fun and if you find it fun to hunt with a big bore then do so. If you find it fun to hunt with a .375, get to it.

500 grains,
You had better quit talking like that or Nick, Will and I will give you a real thrashing!! I flipped, trust me it makes life easier!!