That hilarious!

Video pretty much speaks for itself. Dangerous game hunting, eh??

I have to say I have several times in different places stalked in to less than 5m from undisturbed buff - this in totally wild "open" hunting areas in Tanzania. I never really felt in any danger - same couldn't really be said for the Government Game Scouts tagging along in my wake.....

This of course being on a Residents Licence .... where you have to be your own PH, tracker ...... camp cook, doctor, etc, etc,....

I know of someone that shot a huge cape buffalo, with a bow, in a game concession/ranch in South Africa a couple of years ago, and the buffalo was almost that tame. Buff took the hit, ran, and was found still alive and going 4-5 weeks later. The PH was subsequently called by the concession owner and came and dispatched the buff with the PH's double rifle-but only after numerous shots to finish it. I told both the PH and his client that there was no glory in that hunt, nor should it ever be posted or bragged about-no matter how big the buff was.

At least you get the ear tag as a souvenir……

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
At least you get the ear tag as a souvenir……

And the value of the ear tag increases immeasurably if collected by a World famous idiot masquerading as a professional hunter!

Never. I'd much rather just feed "Ralph" or whatever his name is, some sugar tits.

I love hunting, buffalo especially, like anyone.

I have hunted South Africa and enjoyed it very much.

For plains game.

I would NEVER even consider hunting a buffalo on a farm!

We were hunting in South Africa once on a farm, hunting plains game.

I was asked if I minded shooting some cattle which have gone wild.

I laughed, and said it would be my pleasure, just like hunting buffalo on a farm!

We never saw them, which was a great disappointment to me.

I am sure it thought it was the feed truck.

I wonder how the Buffalo would react if she got down out of the truck.

I guess all I have to say is would you rather have people stay home and not go hunting then hunt on a ranch? I've seen many post on here by members of The forum who have been to ranches to hunt Bison, exotics, wild pigs and deer and I never hear these negative comments about them isn't it the same thing?

quote:

Originally posted by 460 wby shooter:
I guess all I have to say is would you rather have people stay home and not go hunting then hunt on a ranch? I've seen many post on here by members of The forum who have been to ranches to hunt Bison, exotics, wild pigs and deer and I never hear these negative comments about them isn't it the same thing?

I think it all boils down what each thinks is actual hunting.

For me, hunting is going after animals in the wild.

Once that animal is inside a fence, it is no longer hunting.

It is shooting.

I have done both.

I SHOT animals on farms in South Africa, and had a great time, because I knew before hand what I was getting into.

I HUNT animals in wild places.

This is no difference to eating a real beef steak, or one made in a lab from other ingredients.

quote:

Originally posted by 460 wby shooter:
I guess all I have to say is would you rather have people stay home and not go hunting then hunt on a ranch? I've seen many post on here by members of The forum who have been to ranches to hunt Bison, exotics, wild pigs and deer and I never hear these negative comments about them isn't it the same thing?

Those animals are not considered “dangerous game”……..

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by 460 wby shooter:
I guess all I have to say is would you rather have people stay home and not go hunting then hunt on a ranch? I've seen many post on here by members of The forum who have been to ranches to hunt Bison, exotics, wild pigs and deer and I never hear these negative comments about them isn't it the same thing?

Those animals are not considered “dangerous game”……..

I have seen enough damage caused by other animals that are not considered dangerous.

But that is not the point.

When hunting one is always exposed to SOME danger, and we all accept that.

Of course, certain animals do have the ability to inflict serious damage on one if things go wrong.

Personally, in all my years of hunting all sorts of dangerous animals, I honestly could not remember ever feeling that I am in danger.

Except on one occasion.

Sitting in a lion blind, in total darkness, when the lion attacked us.

We all felt a bit defenseless.

We were scared of shooting it, worried we might cause a bigger problem by wounding it.

We did fire a shot through the roof of the blind, and our trackers turned up with the car.

Even then the bloody thing would not go very far!

Otherwise, hunting for many years, shooting hundreds of dangerous game, I never felt being in danger.

More worried about breaking a leg running into a put hole really.

quote:

I wonder how the Buffalo would react if she got down out of the truck. coffee

Seeing it showed no signs of aggression while at the truck it is very likely that it would have reacted in the same manner as any any other domesticated bovine at feeding time.

Maybe some playful jostling could produce some mild bruising.

Same can be said about some very domesticated canned Lions.

In all fairness though, hand-reared or ranched wildlife are still not genetically adapted to such environments and that "wild instinct" is still present; there is no telling when or what it takes to trigger it, but it is there.

To the contrary.

I have extensive experience with all sorts of domesticated stock over 30 years and can tell you that you can’t trust a domesticated buffalo no matter how long it’s been in captivity

They always have their mean streak. Several game farmers have been gored by their “tame buff”
Normally if they don’t feed them fast enough

Also within a herd of domesticated buff there are those that never loose the attitude and will try and go for you every chance they get.

As Saeed said, I just wish outfitters would stop trying to play it up as a “wild hunt”

Hunters are smart people and can make decisions on what they want to hunt/shoot.

Just like the canned lions. On the balance of things I would say you are more likely to be charged by a canned cat than a wild one.

Again I just wish people would call it what it is. Rather than every Hunter coming to Africa shooting the “escaped cattle killer” that crossed the border from Bots.

Personally I would expect that "ranched cape buffalo" are probably similar to ranched bison. You can never trust them. In no way do I think it is "hunting" in either instance, but big powerful animals tend to have an attitude and people are killed by farm raised beasts every year. Heck you should never trust bulls as far as you can throw them, whether they are cape buffalo bulls or angus.

Once again a lot of generalization. Sad.

I didn’t watch the video. What does farm raised mean? Does it refer to wild animals that are fed as in the way domesticated animals (sheep and goats) are fed on a livestock farm.

What is a farm? Is it ground that is privately owned by an individual or group (ie other than an African government in the African context).

I think it’s important for people to realise that there is a vast difference between buffalo like the one in the video that has been raised in a breeding project vs game ranch buffalo that free roam and breed as they like.

To class buffalo free ranging and self sustaining together with a “tame” animal living in small camps on a beeeding operation is to class those freak deer fed in pens to grow massive horns in the same class a the white tails that live on ranch land

Either way, I think that they way they are sold to unsuspecting hunters is where the fault lies

Part of the problem is exactly what Venture South has stated. The other issue is that I have seen video on the internet of some of the buffalo hunts on private land in South Africa that certainly cause a lot of the opinions people hold about "ranch" buff hunting.

One of the videos was of a guy trying to take a cape buffalo with a bow and they were riding in the back of a landcruiser , slowly driving through a bunch of bulls that had were waiting to get fed and the feed was in the truck. So the buff were milling around the vehicle waiting to get the food. The guy ended up sticking an arrow in one a few yards away...it was a depressing thing to watch and certainly did not show things in a good light.

In another video the guys were "sneaking" up on some bulls that had just been fed. The buff were completely ignoring them as they were busy eating, with the odd bull moving to push another off of a pile of feed that he thought was better. The shooter ended up doing a piss poor job of shooting and it took a few to put the bull that was picked on the ground. All in all another video that would leave a bad taste in anyones mouth.

So there is a reason people hold certain opinions about what the ranch hunts are about, whether it is accurate or not.

I shot a buff on a ranch about 20 years ago. After an 18.5 mile hike following him.

All ranch hunts are not the same.

If it has a fence.

It is a farm.

Nothing else matters.

I don’t think it’s as simples as the “is it fenced” argument. Although I do understand the purist point of view in this regard.

I can tell you that there are plenty of properties in SA of over 10000ha quite a few over 20000 and some that I have hunted that are over 30000

When you get to those sizes, depending on topography and cover it can be every bit as wild and challenging as hunting unfenced

At the end of the day it’s simply a personal choice

My dog in the fight will always be honesty in marketing these hunts
Especially when outfitters try to pass off breeding project excess as wild

Caveat Emptor

quote:

Originally posted by Venture South:
I don’t think it’s as simples as the “is it fenced” argument. Although I do understand the purist point of view in this regard.

I can tell you that there are plenty of properties in SA of over 10000ha quite a few over 20000 and some that I have hunted that are over 30000

When you get to those sizes, depending on topography and cover it can be every bit as wild and challenging as hunting unfenced

At the end of the day it’s simply a personal choice

My dog in the fight will always be honesty in marketing these hunts
Especially when outfitters try to pass off breeding project excess as wild

Caveat Emptor

I am not talking for anyone else, but me.

I have animals here in my own backyard, and I know how difficult it can be to shoot one of them.

That is not the point.

I don't mind shooting plains game on a farm, but I draw the line at shooting buffalo or lion behind a fence, regardless of size.

Again, it is only my own choice.

100%
I think we need to stop judging each other’s choices and enjoy being part of a great community of hunters.
So long as people are not being lied to, the hunting community can vote with their cheque book.

quote:

I don’t think it’s as simples as the “is it fenced” argument. Although I do understand the purist point of view in this regard.

I can tell you that there are plenty of properties in SA of over 10000ha quite a few over 20000 and some that I have hunted that are over 30000

When you get to those sizes, depending on topography and cover it can be every bit as wild and challenging as hunting unfenced

At the end of the day it’s simply a personal choice

I agree 100%, as I have had some challenging and difficult hunts in South Africa to rival those in Zimababwe, etc. However, in the case of the bow hunter referenced by me earlier in this thread, that was not a hunt. It ended in a mess-for the wounded buffalo, the hunter and the PH. I believe that is what many of us are talking about. To drive up to a huge cape buffalo, step out of the truck and shoot it with the bow as it just stood there close by, is not a hunt in my opinion, and this one had a sad ending until the PH finally was called 4-5 weeks later and shot it numerous times with his 470 NE to finally put an end to what was nothing more than a shoot of a semi-tame buff. I have been in many camps throughout Africa in various countries where plains game of some sort, and even dangerous game-such as leopards, buffalo, etc. come into camp or are nearby on a regular basis and are observable, and they are off limits. That is totally understandable.

.

Again it saddens me that we bitch and bicker amongst ourselves as hunters and conservationists as to ranched, farmed and wild et cetera et ceta et cetera.

Everyone has a budget and it is up to everyone to decide how they hunt in that budget. Not everyone can budget Saeed's multiple thousand dollar safaris nor can everyone budget a USD 20k 10 day Zim buff.

As long as it is legal and ethical then let us all enjoy everyones sport and success and stand together in the process as a body of hunters and conservationists!

.

quote:

Originally posted by Charlie64:
.

Again it saddens me that we bitch and bicker amongst ourselves as hunters and conservationists as to ranched, farmed and wild et cetera et ceta et cetera.

Everyone has a budget and it is up to everyone to decide how they hunt in that budget. Not everyone can budget Saeed's multiple thousand dollar safaris nor can everyone budget a USD 20k 10 day Zim buff.

As long as it is legal and ethical then let us all enjoy everyones sport and success and stand together in the process as a body of hunters and conservationists!

.

I agree with you.

But it has nothing to do with how expensive or difficult a safari is.

It boils down to calling it what it actually is.

I am 100% with as long as it is legal, it is fine by me.

I have always said that about so called "canned" lion hunting.

I have nothing against, it, but I would not do it.

Same for farming hunting buffalo.

I have no problems hunting plains game on a farm.

Until the last few years, farm buffalo in RSA cost about as much as free range buff….Supply and demand finally caught up with each other.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
Until the last few years, farm buffalo in RSA cost about as much as free range buff….Supply and demand finally caught up with each other.

And if one wants to hunt a mixed bag of animals that include sable and roan for instance, the sky is the limit in prices in South Africa.

But, let us not knock South Africa for hunting.

It is absolutely great for plains game, and I know people who prefer hunting there for plains game than in other wild places.

That is fine too.

But to equate hunting farm raised buffalo on a farm in South Africa as a wild one is a non starter.

Can't remember if it was an old post or something I heard at a show, but a "hunter" was so proud of shooting a "charging" lion from the back a car in South Africa. As the story went on it was apparent that the poor sod was running toward the car wanting a meal.

Agree that even supposed tame bovines are not without risk. Years ago, I used to take my son (when he was young) hunting on a lease in Texas for deer. We always hunted on foot with sticks. The way we hunt. There was a young Angus bull on the property that was somewhat aggressive. I never had to fire so much as a warning shot, although I came close, but must admit I was contemplating how I wanted the steaks cut up up on more than one occasion.

.

quote:

It boils down to calling it what it actually is.

Fully agree with that - whether its hunting, holiday packages, second hand rifles or whatever. Call it what it actually is and let the buyer make his / her choice.

Would I hunt buff in RSA? On the right property sure. A farm in Pongola comes to mind - plenty big, natural boundries, lakes and rivers with a short fence line along the main highway to the south west. Some very rough and thick bush and a lot of hills and some nice old solo bulls up in those hills. Now that could be a fun hunt!

.

.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Venture South:
I don’t think it’s as simples as the “is it fenced” argument. Although I do understand the purist point of view in this regard.

I can tell you that there are plenty of properties in SA of over 10000ha quite a few over 20000 and some that I have hunted that are over 30000

When you get to those sizes, depending on topography and cover it can be every bit as wild and challenging as hunting unfenced

At the end of the day it’s simply a personal choice

My dog in the fight will always be honesty in marketing these hunts
Especially when outfitters try to pass off breeding project excess as wild

Caveat Emptor

I am not talking for anyone else, but me.

I have animals here in my own backyard, and I know how difficult it can be to shoot one of them.

I don't mind shooting plains game on a farm, but I draw the line at shooting buffalo or lion behind a fence, regardless of size.

Again, it is only my own choice.

I can respect that. Aside from the Associated Private Nature Reserves fenced in with Kruger, I'm also not aware of any true free range "big five" hunting in South Africa. But with plains game it is different, and I do believe you know this by your previous posts. South Africa doesn't set aside "safari hunting areas" as in other African areas and there is no hunting allowed in National Parks. Our hunting is largely limited to privately owned ground but with an enormous amount of plains game in these areas spread throughout South Africa. Private land ownership has allowed these species to flourish virtually everywhere in South Africa. It's not confined to fenced areas only as much as some may insinuate. For example - in the Eastern Cape 15k to 20k kudu are hunted each year by foreign and local hunters, only a fraction of these are hunted on fenced ground (and these are large areas). As an outfit, we hunt the majority of our kudu and a number of other species on low fenced, private properties but even those huned on fenced properties, the areas are large enough that there is no difference in the quality or challenge of the hunt. It isn't true for all species but when you have 30 huntable antelope species naturally occurring naturally in your country there are differences in the abundance of species. I'm willing to bet there's more free -range / low fenced hunting of plains game by volume in South Africa than any other African country, possibly even more than some of them combined. And this number will continue to grow as Africa and it's poulation expands.

Not disagreeing with you here. The areas you hunt are small parts of Africa and you're privileged to be able to hunt them, not accessible to all financially and otherwise. Africa is a large and varied place, as you know, the future of it's wildlife lies in using sustainably utilizing it in as many places as possible. In this regard, South Africa deserves far more respect than it's been afforded.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
If it has a fence.

It is a farm.

Nothing else matters.

Maybe. But what about lions? Do buffalo behave the same in areas without lions as they do when pressed by lions daily? I have experienced them under both conditions. I think they are just as switched on regardless. What are your thoughts?

quote:

Originally posted by drongo:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
If it has a fence.

It is a farm.

Nothing else matters.

Maybe. But what about lions? Do buffalo behave the same in areas without lions as they do when pressed by lions daily? I have experienced them under both conditions. I think they are just as switched on regardless. What are your thoughts?

Both lion and buffalo ARE dangerous under certain conditions.

Regardless where they are hunted.

Still does not alter the fact that there is an enormous difference between an animal born and living in the wild, and one famred on a farm.

To each his own and a multitude of hunters would never experience Africa were it not for the fenced ranches, which btw may be huge in size or very small indeed..the subject is not black and white, mostly to those that have not been there and figured it out...A fenced 5000 acres is damn sporting and not much different than a commished Tanzania hunt, we live in a world of boundaries, and they may be fenced or may not be, but have equal opportunity and a leget hunt..

Even in the USA most hunting is fenced or have boundries..There is USFS and open opertunity to hunt on ones own and in some cases large amounts of land and shoulder to shoulder hunting to ruin the experince adn there are ranches of private land that are as large as 100,000 acres or twice or three times that big, and you are alone and happy and just spent$5000 to as much as $50,000 or more for a deer or elk.

I would suggest that you decide what you can afford and the size of the land mass available, the opportunity is there.

Id be slow to criticize, it's just a liberal mind set, and yes all that glitters is not gold, check them out..be resonsible for yourself.

I wish it was a perfect world and all hunters had the opportunities that I have had, but it boils down to financial ability, like most everything else..Cut through the emotions and deal with facts.

Basically, one HUNTS animals in the wild.

And one SHOOTS animals on farms.

There is really no other way to describe it.

It has nothing to do with how dangerous or difficult it is.