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The story: the shipping end of my Namibia trip has been nothing but a hassle. But thankfully today I received word that my trophies were at the airport. The problem was, the cardboard box that they were shipped in was completely destroyed. In addition, it seems most of the export documents aren't around. So I went to the airport to check out the damage. This was a dip & pack and ship arrangement. The cardboard box the trophies were shipped in was destroyed to the extent that all but the bottom was there. My trophies were basically sitting on the bottom of the box, which was on a pallet. The box had originally been filled with shredded newspaper, most of which was gone. The actual horns were wrapped in bubble wrap and that part didn't seem to come apart. Upon closer inspection, one of the springbok horns was broken about an inch from the top (I was inspecting through the bubble wrap, so I can't be too sure about damage). The impala skull that I originally wanted a euro mount on was broken and in pieces from about the bridge of the nose down. There were a couple of other skulls that had pieces broken off. These are ones that are going to be shoulder mounts, so that doesn't break my heart too bad.

At any rate, I am trying to decide how irritated I should be. Just run of the mill problems involved when shipping from Namibia to Alaska? Still seems like the export documents should have made it unless they were in the box and when it got destroyed they fell out.

The office had a couple of pieces of paper, one in German from its stay in Frankfurt.

So, how acceptable is all this? If unacceptable, where in chain would the problem have been?

Thanks.
 
Posts: 79 | Location: Anchorage | Registered: 24 January 2005Reply With Quote
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I don't know who you used for your dip and pack service, but your crate should have been made from hardwood and your trophies fastened to the sides of the crate so they would arrive intact. This is not acceptible shipping, I would be raising some hell.

Common sense says a cardboard box will not travel from Africa to AK, you got screwed, sorry,..................JJ


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Posts: 593 | Location: Southern WV, USA | Registered: 03 August 2004Reply With Quote
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I would say, completely unacceptable; I have shipped finished trophies from SA and zim 6 times without ANY problems. The trophies always come in a stout wooden crate and are very nicely buffered by bubble wrap, foam etc. Some heads have been screwed into the side of the box. No damage ever.
Who was your taxidermist/shipper? Most likely, they were insured and you are due money.
 
Posts: 523 | Location: wisconsin | Registered: 18 June 2007Reply With Quote
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JV,

That is not acceptable. Start with your safari company and let him follow up the line.

Mark


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Posts: 12875 | Location: LAS VEGAS, NV USA | Registered: 04 August 2002Reply With Quote
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I've never heard of a cardboard box being used to ship trophies home. Ouch. Keep us posted.


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Posts: 4168 | Location: Texas | Registered: 18 June 2001Reply With Quote
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Yes, you should be ticked-off. Start with the PH or agent.
 
Posts: 2627 | Location: Where the pine trees touch the sky | Registered: 06 December 2006Reply With Quote
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Rediculously unacceptable. They took a huge risk with your trophies. I'd raise hell, but in my experience, the only positive outcome of that will be that you'll feel better. Smiler

Cheers,
Canuck



 
Posts: 7121 | Location: The Rock (southern V.I.) | Registered: 27 February 2001Reply With Quote
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Check my past posts. I had the same thing happen to me. Who was your taxidermist and broker? I bet I know. If you used the broker I did, your screwed.
 
Posts: 948 | Location: Kenai, Ak. USA | Registered: 05 November 2000Reply With Quote
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In 2005 my trophies from Namibia were shipped in a cardboard box, albeit one built around a fairly sturdy wooden frame. All turned out well with that and the shipment came through just fine.

That said, what the packing/shipping company did with your trophies was not acceptable. Like was previously recommended, you might be best off starting with your outfitter/PH and working from there.


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Posts: 3291 | Location: Southern NM USA | Registered: 01 October 2002Reply With Quote
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In the interest of full disclosure, TJ informed me of a potential box situation. (Yeah, TJ, same taxidermist, but I used a different shipping agent after hearing your story.) I checked with the tannery that is clearing the stuff here in Anchorage and they said that for stuff just dip and packed the box would be fine and was not unusual.

So I guess I'm trying to figure out how mad to be with myself.
 
Posts: 79 | Location: Anchorage | Registered: 24 January 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
I checked with the tannery that is clearing the stuff here in Anchorage and they said that for stuff just dip and packed the box would be fine and was not unusual.


I find that strange. My first shipment from RSA was just dipped and packed skulls/capes. It was shipped in great wood crate, fortunately, as I would never have imagined a shipment like that would make it intact from Africa if it had been a cardboard box...it clearly took a real beating. The trophies were fine (except for the damage the friggen a55holes at the dip pack company did to them before they shipped it!!).

Likewise, my last shipment (from Tanz) was just two buffalo skulls and a complete buffalo hide. It was also in a wood crate, which was broken in about 5 places and bashed to hell on every corner. A cardboard box would NEVER have survived. Everything inside was intact again, fortunately (except for the bug infestation and advanced mold/fungus issues!!!!!!!!)

Does your tannery receive stuff from overseas often??

Cheers,
Canuck



 
Posts: 7121 | Location: The Rock (southern V.I.) | Registered: 27 February 2001Reply With Quote
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As one of your neighbors, I would like to know the companies involved so I know not to use them. You can PM if you want.


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Posts: 4168 | Location: Texas | Registered: 18 June 2001Reply With Quote
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You gotta remember that I still need export doc's from these guys - after that a full non-recommendation will be filed. I was not pleased with services render before this.

A secondary reason for this post was to see if anyone thought the shipping agent would have any responsibility in the matter. I've been relatively happy with that service and didn't want to smear anyone unreasonably.

Canuck - they do seem to receive stuff at least reasonably often as per other folks I've talked to who've used them.

On a different note - can a taxidermist repair a broken horn? It doesn't really look like a clean break - quite a few splinters in the bubble wrap. I'll try to take a photo when this finally gets cleared and post it on the taxidermy forum.
 
Posts: 79 | Location: Anchorage | Registered: 24 January 2005Reply With Quote
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I'm a bit confused why ya'll shipping fees are so high... For about 2K, you can send a container anywhere in the world -- which will hold a HECK of a lot of trophies -- given the expense, why not put the trophies inside a container, all on their own?


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Posts: 863 | Location: Texas | Registered: 25 January 2006Reply With Quote
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Using cheap cardboard boxes and shredded paper is quite common., The dip & Pact services all want to make as much money as possible and treated lumber and bubble wrap cost them more money. The shredded paper really pissed me off on my last trophy shipment. I paid over $6 a pound for 30 LB. of compressed / shredded paper, This added an extra shipping cost of at least $100-$150 The last few years it seams like everybody is trying to make as much money off you and nobody really cares about the hunter anymore.


Robert Johnson
 
Posts: 599 | Location: Soldotna Alaska | Registered: 05 May 2003Reply With Quote
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Don't keep it a secret. We all need to know who it is so we can avoid them at all costs.
 
Posts: 18537 | Registered: 04 April 2005Reply With Quote
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Hi Folks I would advise chase this up at all points of the shipping process but it is a complicated and messy system, made all the more difficult by what happens to the boxes in the USA.

We have been doing our own trophy shipments this last two seasons and everything has gone to plan, except for some delays and problems within the USA. Since the USDA put restrictions on timber products we could see many more problems arising, so we changed to cardboard containers for almost all shipments, including some finished taxidermy products. We have found some cardboard that is about 18mm thick (3/4inch?) and this does an excellent job and avoids unneccasry USDA hold-ups.

Aside from all of the government departments that can hold things up (Customs, USDA, FWS, Security, etc, etc) - and that can vary greatly from port to port - the biggest problems we have come from the airlines. They REGULARLY loose paperwork - how? - that is anyones guess!! Think about how the US airlines treat you and your luggage at the airport and that is how your trophies are treated in air transit.

Sorry to digress from your question I just thought I would give my experiences. I would say follow it up at all levels if you think it will help but understand that there are many pitfalls with this trophy shipping business.

Cheers

Matt Graham
Hunt Australia


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Posts: 4456 | Location: Australia | Registered: 23 January 2003Reply With Quote
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Compared to the service I´ve received from other places Namibia really sucks! My trophies were also shipped in a cardboard box and some of the European monts were chipped. The whole process was one long hassle! Next time I hunt Namibia I´ll just take pics.


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Posts: 2213 | Location: Finland | Registered: 02 May 2003Reply With Quote
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I have seen this Cardboard box thing here in my circle of friends a couple of times - both from Namibia. But also other times I have seen wood also. You must use a quality company for shipping and make sure they understand the USFW service rules.


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Posts: 580 | Location: I am neither for you or against you. I am completely the opposite. | Registered: 23 December 2004Reply With Quote
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Howdy Folks,

Sorry to hear of so much misfortune. In the past five years I would hazzard to guess at least %30 of all the safari shipments I have recieved in the past five years have come in cardboard boxes. %100 of those originated in SA or Namibia. A while back I questioned a shipping broker about that. I do not know the truth of this but this is what I was told. He stated that those two countries entered into an international treaty that gaurantees wood from "threatened forests" are not used in the manufacturing of shipping crates. Lumber used for craring is supposed to recieve a clearance stamp that shows its origination. If a wooden crate arrives in the US without such stamp USFWS or Customs can reject and send back the crate with all the items inside. Owner of the items will have to pay for the shipment back if he is to ever recieve these goods.

Also, I am in know way excusing the damage done to your trophies but I doubt you will find any solution to the problem. First, was Anchorage the port of entry for your trophies? I have had several crates arrive here that I could tell USFWS had damaged them heavily. If they had to be trucked or flown after they had had thier hands on the crate some of the trophies wouldn't have made it. There are several feasable theories of how your crate could have been damaged and everyone involved will either tell you it was fine when they had it or point a finger at someone else. Sorry for your misfortune and I wish you the best of luck.
 
Posts: 2826 | Location: Houston | Registered: 01 May 2007Reply With Quote
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It took several months and numerous letters/phonecalls to followup but I finally received a check that covered the cost of repair for trophies damaged by a domestic freight truck company while shipping them from Dallas to my home. Coppersmith was my agent - they weren't any help.


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Posts: 931 | Location: Roswell, NM | Registered: 02 December 2002Reply With Quote
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Oh yeah - MIke Simpson, Conroe Taxidermy fixed the reedbuck. Can't tell it was ever damaged. This is really saying something as I sent the trophy to him literally in pieces. Got to get the sable down to him.


Pancho
LTC, USA, RET

"Participating in a gun buy-back program because you think that criminals have too many guns is like having yourself castrated because you think your neighbors have too many kids." Clint Eastwood

Give me Liberty or give me Corona.
 
Posts: 931 | Location: Roswell, NM | Registered: 02 December 2002Reply With Quote
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FYI to any members, if anyone suggests Desert Logistics to ship trophies from Windhoek, run like hell. Nine months after I was told that my trophies had been shipped, they arrived.
I believe that with out the help of Fauna & Flora I would have never recieved my trophies. I recieved three different airbills, all fake!
Matthew Mayers at F&F was a great help.
718 977-8230
Anyone who would like the gory details feel free to PM me.


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Posts: 923 | Location: Phx Az and the Hills of Ohio | Registered: 13 March 2006Reply With Quote
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The reason cardboard boxes are being used is the prohibitions on solid wood packing material which require IPPC logos be affixed - if not they are refused entry to the U.S. I suggest you go back to the agent overseas who shipped it and demand insurance payment - you are automatically covered under the Warsaw Convention for $20 per kilo.



quote:
Originally posted by JJ_Miller:
I don't know who you used for your dip and pack service, but your crate should have been made from hardwood and your trophies fastened to the sides of the crate so they would arrive intact. This is not acceptible shipping, I would be raising some hell.

Common sense says a cardboard box will not travel from Africa to AK, you got screwed, sorry,..................JJ


Carolyn Rutkowski
Consultant, Hunting Trophy Division
Coppersmith Inc.
TheRutkowskis@aol.com
 
Posts: 53 | Location: Carrollton, Texas | Registered: 02 February 2005Reply With Quote
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Wait a minute, all any Safari company has to do is be sure the wood is treated before its shipped..That is a simple dipping process...The use of cardboard is a sham. bsflag


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 41868 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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Howdy,

Just gor four more safaris in today. 3 in cardboard fixed to pallets and one in a wood crate. Cardboard heavily damaged by USFWS. All peices in good shape even though there was no packing material at all. Slight damage to wooden crate. Wood Crate came from Zim. 3 Cardboard crates from Botswana. They were handled by Mochaba. I think every single package I have ever recieved from Botswana came through Mochaba and I am not sure there is anyone else you can use in that country if you were demanding wooden crates.

Have a great weekend.

By the way USFWS does have a right to show proof of the wood material used on a crate. They can also investigate the wood used on items you purchase while abroad.
 
Posts: 2826 | Location: Houston | Registered: 01 May 2007Reply With Quote
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JV,
My "crate" arrived in Anchorage (Knights Taxi) and it was just a cardboard box on a pallet. Mine was in terrific shape and packing was much more substantial than newspaper. My hunt was in Zimbabwe, though. Even still, you would suspect Zim would have lesser packing than Namibia because of the economy.

Send me a PM if you would like to discuss this, or anything else further. I work in Anchorage.

Dave
 
Posts: 1508 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 09 August 2002Reply With Quote
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Here is the Wood Packaging Materials (WPM)regulations and Implementation Schedule. You probably will not read the whole thing, but its up for a good scan.


Operating Procedures for Trade Community Regarding Implementation of the
Wood Packaging Materials (WPM) Regulation


Background:

The United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS) has revised its import regulation for wood packaging materials (WPM), 7 CFR § 319. The final rule was posted in the Federal Register September 16, 2004, with an effective date of September 16, 2005.

The regulation requires regulated WPM used in international trade to be treated to kill harmful insects that may be present. WPM must be marked with the International Plant Protection Convention (IPPC) logo, the two-letter International Organization for Standardization (ISO) code for the country that treated the WPM, the treatment facility number assigned by the national plant protection organization, and either the abbreviation HT (heat treatment) or MB (methyl bromide). The rule states that regulated wood packaging materials must be marked in a visible location on each article, preferably on at least two opposite sides of the article, with a legible and permanent mark that indicates that the article meets the new requirements. Paper treatment certificates will no longer be required or accepted. An example of an acceptable WPM mark is:



The regulation restricts the importation of many types of wood articles, including wooden packaging materials such as pallets, crates, boxes, and pieces of wood used to support or brace cargo. The regulations currently refer to these types of wood packaging materials as solid wood packing materials, defined as ‘‘wood packing material other than loose wood packing material, used or for use with cargo to prevent damage, including, but not limited to, dunnage, crating, pallets, packing blocks, drums, cases, and skids.’’ Effective September 16, 2005, the U.S. regulation allows non-compliant regulated WPM to be reexported. CBP recognizes that the usage of this term may be confusing. For purposes of CBP implementation of the USDA regulation, “reexport†will refer to the immediate exportation (IE) or transportation and exportation (T&E) of violative WPM under bond and, where the violative WPM cannot be separated from the accompanying merchandise, the IE or T&E of the violative WPM and any accompanying merchandise. By regulation, no treatment options for WPM being imported into the United States are available.

For the purposes of this rule, WPM imported as cargo, such as a container or truckload of new or unused pallets, will still be considered WPM and subject to the rule. Its status as merchandise is irrelevant.


Non-regulated and Exempt Wood and Wood Products:

Regulated WPM do not include any manufactured items, such as worked wood items, even if those items are used to contain other non-regulated merchandise. Examples of such non-regulated manufactured items might include such things as carved or formed wooden bottle stoppers, ammo crates, wooden boxes built to house fuel gauges or armaments, etc. Wine crates for any vintage year prior to 2006, are also non-regulated; wine crates for vintage year 2006 and beyond are regulated.

Regulated WPM do not include any manufactured wood, such as fiberboard, plywood, polywood, whisky and wine barrels, strand board, and veneers, nor do they include “loose wood packing materials†as defined in 7 CFR § 319.40-1. Examples of loose wood packing materials include excelsior (wood wool), sawdust, and wood shavings, produced as a result of sawing or shaving wood into small, slender, and curved pieces. Dunnage is not always loose wood packing materials; when it is not, it is regulated.

The regulation allows importation without marking of otherwise-regulated WPM used by the U.S. Department of Defense to package non-regulated articles, including commercial shipments pursuant to a DOD contract.

By reciprocal regulations, WPM made from Canadian origin wood or U.S. origin wood (or a combination of Canadian origin wood and U.S. origin wood) will be exempt from treatment and marking under this regulation when used in trade between these two countries. For purposes of enforcement of this exception, and absent acceptable proof to the contrary, U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) will consider the country of origin of merchandise coming from Canada to be the country of origin of the accompanying WPM.

The only remaining exemption for imports from Mexico permits importation of unmarked firewood, mesquite wood for cooking, and small, noncommercial packages of un-manufactured wood for personal cooking or personal medicinal purposes as long as these items arrive directly from Mexican Border States.

Phased Compliance:

CBP conducted a special operation during the month of July 2005 to determine the baseline level of WPM compliance. Based on examination results, CBP will perform phased-in compliance enforcement of the USDA WPM regulation.

Phase I, beginning September 16, 2005, began an informed compliance period, with no stoppage or export of shipments for non-compliant WPM. During this phase, all visual exams of cargo performed by CBP Officers or Agriculture Specialists included a WPM component. If WPM were present and not marked as having been treated, the broker and the importer were informed of the non-compliance and given further information. (See “Sample Notice of Violationâ€, attached)

Phase II, beginning February 1, 2006, will continue informed compliance measures on all regulated WPM except pallets and crates. CBP will begin full enforcement of the ban on violative pallets and crates. Beginning with Phase II, export of all shipments containing violative pallets or crates will be ordered if the Port Director determines that it is not feasible to separate merchandise from the violative WPM. IT and T&E shipments found to contain violative WPM will not be permitted to transit except under certain stringent conditions. All expenses incurred for the services of CBP Officers and Agriculture Specialists involved in the separation of cargo will be billed to the importer or other party of interest. WPM and associated merchandise will be exported at the expense of the importer or other party of interest.

Phase III, beginning July 5, 2006, will represent full enforcement of the WPM ban regulated by 7 CFR § 319. CBP will no longer conduct informed compliance at the shipment level. In Phase III, export of all shipments containing violative WPM will be ordered if the Port Director determines that it is not feasible to separate merchandise from the violative WPM. IT and T&E shipments found to contain violative WPM will not be permitted to transit except under certain stringent conditions. All expenses incurred for the services of CBP Officers and Agriculture Specialists involved in the separation of cargo will be billed to the importer or other party of interest. WPM and associated merchandise will be exported at the expense of the importer of other party of interest.


Phase I
Informed Compliance
September 16, 2005 through January 31, 2006


1. Phase I of the WPM implementation will consist of an informed compliance initiative relative to CBP efforts to implement and enforce the WPM rule.

2. During Phase I, if CBP discovers WPM that are not properly marked (that is, lacking the proper IPPC logo) during the course of any visual examination of any cargo, a Notice of Violation will be posted in a prominent location on the goods. A copy will also be included in the entry packet where possible. The intent of these steps is to notify the broker and the recipient that a violation has occurred and that CBP has chosen to temporarily exercise its enforcement discretion. These discoveries are considered violations of the WPM rule.

3. The enforcement of WPM requirements is a separate process from the normal course of pest interdiction duties conducted by CBP Agriculture Specialists. In every case of the discovery of a pest infestation, the protocol associated with safeguarding or eradication of the pest threat will supersede WPM enforcement. Once a pest threat has been eliminated, the WPM enforcement will be applied.

4. National and port account managers will work with their accounts to answer questions and encourage compliance with the regulation.
Phase II
Wooden Pallets and Crates
February 1 through July 4, 2006


1. Phase II continues informed compliance efforts started in Phase I. However, enforcement of the rule will begin to impact cargo shipments that have non-compliant wooden pallets or crates.

The term “palletsâ€, when used in this document, will include single wooden pallets and all pallets that are part of a unitized packaging container, such as wooden pallets that comprise the base of a carton or crate (for example, in shipments of motorcycles, machinery parts, pipe fittings, etc.) Wooden crates or lift vans constructed solely of manufactured wood (for example, plywood) are not regulated by the WPM rule. However, if other lumber is used in these crates, those pieces are covered by the WPM rule. (See also “WPM--Specific Exemptionsâ€, attached)

2. During Phase II, if CBP discovers WPM (other than pallets or crates) that are not properly marked (that is, lacking the proper IPPC logo) during the course of any visual examination of any cargo, a Notice of Violation will be posted in a prominent location on the goods. A copy will also be included in the entry packet where possible. The intent of these steps is to notify the broker and the recipient that a violation has occurred and that CBP has chosen to temporarily exercise its enforcement discretion. These discoveries are considered violations of the WPM rule.

Shipments Containing Non-Compliant Wood Pallets or Crates

a. The shipment will be held and will not be released. IT and T&E shipments found to contain violative WPM will not be permitted to transit except under certain stringent conditions.

b. The Agriculture Specialist will complete a USDA Emergency Action (EAN) Notification (PPQ-523) on the violative materials. The Agriculture Specialist will follow the general guidelines for completing actions under the EAN procedures.

c. The importer, or the importer’s representative (if one is available), will be notified by CBP of the situation.

d. The importer or other party of interest may request separation of the imported merchandise from the violative WPM.

3. If the Port Director determines that separation of the non-compliant crates from the cargo is not feasible, or if separation is not requested, then the entire shipment (violative WPM, compliant WPM, and merchandise) shall be ordered exported from the U.S. in accordance with the rule.

a. The Port Director shall order the shipment to be exported from the U.S. at the importers’ or party of interest’s expense. It is irrelevant if the shipment contains a mixture of compliant and violative WPM.

b. The authority to order exportation of violative WPM is contained in the USDA regulations at 7 CFR § 319.40.

c. If the entire shipment is ordered exported, any original entry must be cancelled and an Immediate Exportation entry (entry type 63) must be executed and provided to the Port Director to document the export movement.

d. If movement outside of the original U.S. port becomes necessary to cause the ordered exportation, it will be on a restrictive Transportation and Exportation entry (entry type 62) in conjunction with an appropriately executed USDA Emergency Action Notification (EAN) (PPQ-523). The EAN will provide and document restrictions as to routing, diversion and authorized timeframe to complete the restricted transportation and exportation movement.

e. In the event that the identity of the importer is unknown or otherwise not available to CBP, the importing carrier may be held liable for expenses related to the costs of exportation of the non-compliant WPM and associated cargo.

f. In the event that the merchandise is abandoned, the shipment will go to General Order (G.O.) and be handled under established procedures. If G.O. merchandise is ultimately auctioned, all noncompliant WPM must be exported at the expense of the successful bidder.


4. If the Port Director determines that separation of the violative WPM from the cargo is feasible, then the cargo will be separated at the importer’s expense at a time and place determined by the Port Director.

a. After separation, the Port Director will order violative WPM to be exported per 7 CFR § 319.40 at the importers’ or party of interest’s expense.

b. If only the violative WPM is to be exported, the importer or party of interest (working in conjunction with the exporting carrier) must supply evidence sufficient to Port Director’s satisfaction that the non-compliant WPM will be removed from the U.S. This proof may include, but is not limited to, a bill of lading, statement on carrier letterhead, U.S. export or foreign entry documents, etc.

c. In the event that the identity of the importer is unknown or otherwise not available to CBP, the importing carrier may be held liable for expenses related to the costs of exportation of the non-compliant WPM.


Global Sportsmen Outfitters, LLC
Bob Cunningham
404-802-2500




 
Posts: 580 | Location: I am neither for you or against you. I am completely the opposite. | Registered: 23 December 2004Reply With Quote
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Obviously, this is probably more expense and hassle than is reasonable for a single hunter, but it might make sense for an outfitter -- what if you sent over plastic pallets (grainger has them) and some large plastic crates to use as shipping materials -- certainly stronger than wood, about the same weight, and no questions on the source... Of course, you'd still need a reputable company to pack them, etc... Maybe that's the difficult part.


And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
 
Posts: 863 | Location: Texas | Registered: 25 January 2006Reply With Quote
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My solution has been to use a S african firm, Lifeform taxidermy, for EVERYTHING collected in Africa. There guys are incredibly good with packing etc, and the quality of the work is superb, much better than any i have had done at home in the US. never had a single item damaged, lost, missed, etc- over 40 trophies, since 1991. The one time I didnt use them, I got my trophies back with a broken kudu horn, and a kudu cape that lost its hair over the years.
 
Posts: 523 | Location: wisconsin | Registered: 18 June 2007Reply With Quote
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