With regard to the 458 Lott thread, concerning the problems of the 458 Win in the past, I was wondering how it measures up today?
Is it any better nowadays, concerning factory loads? Is it best left to handloads? Is it still a worth while purchase? ~~~Suluuq

Excellent question, Rusty. I believe it is better than ever. I get 2,250 fps+ with some of todays' powders combined with molycoated 450 grain Barnes "X" and Super Solids. The length of these monolithics is as great or greater than premium bullets of more conventional design so the "loss" of 50 grains of bullet weight is negated by the higher velocity, while "SD" numbers remain high. I can't think of a better remedy for the short case and I would be completely satisfied with these numbers.

I think if you loaded one with a hard cast bullet of 400 grs with a flat meplatt they should be wonderful buff and elephant medicine.

Don't you agree?

(going by previous discussions anyway)

/

As noted, newer powders and new bullet designs keep the .458 WM going. Remington introduced a 465 grain factory load a few years back, but I don't know how it is selling.

I expect a lot of .458 WM rifles sold are immediately rechambered to .458 Lott, so that may keep the .458 WM sales numbers up and the manufacturers selling them.

The US manufacturers review sales numbers, and announce this and such will be dropped to test the waters. If there is a big howl, they will keep the cartridge going (Usually!).

If I was shooting a .458 WM, I would be loading the Speer bullets with the tungsten cores, they are the shortest bullets for their weight. Even Randy Garrett likes them!

My friends who handload the .458 WM think it does just fine, and report some pretty good velocities. I do not know their pressures of course.

But Alf is right, the fix for a too small case is a bigger one.

jim dodd

[ 10-20-2002, 20:45: Message edited by: HunterJim ]

The case was just too small from the get go and now everyone is trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear....Rechamber it to the 3" version and load it down to 2250 FPS is the real solution.

Maybe the .458 should have had a bit fatter case with a slightly rebated rim. It would have sold.

I have loaded the .458 win magn with barnes solids 400 grains going out with 680 meters per second and made a good result on buffalo.

Also using the same load with hornady 400 grains
soft point at the same startspeed for antilopes and warthogs. Works good.

Jan

Jan,
But you had to give up 100 grs. of bullet weight to get that velocity and that equates to a lot of SD lost...I am not saying it won't work, because it will, but there are "better" options around.

As to the post on a fatter round, we have that in the 460 G&A which is one of the better designed wildcats..It should have been commercialized or perhaps the shorter 450 G&A, both excellent rounds.

Ok I will ask out of ignorance, anytime I hear the 30-06 vs. 300 winnie debate come up one of the 06 rebuttals is that with modern powders and bullets it comes pretty damn close to the winnie without the recoil. Can't the same argument be made with the 458 Win. or am I comparing apples to oranges? gabe

There are loads using VihtaVuori Oy powders in the AR reloading pages in which Saeed got 2100fps or more with 500gr. bullets.

George

Ray,

Norm Agustine said "if you want to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, you have to start with a silk sow".

jim dodd

Jim...you got that right.

Most people start out with a silk purse and by the time they get thru screwing around they have a sow's ear.

Ray

I know that I lost 100 gr. but at that moment there was no 500 gr. bullets avalible in Sweden
and I have to go for Zimbabwe at that time.

But the 400 grain worked so well, shooting trough
both blades at the buffalo, that nowdays I always
using this load.

Jan

Jan,
With the advent of the monolithic HP's and the monolithic solids, I catch myself falling back into the old way of thinking...These bullets have changed the way we must think and I am having a heck of a time making that adjustment from what has always been, but I will get there, just give me time....

Raymondo,
It may have helped if you read my post!

Around 1910 the 404 Jeffery Nitro Express was introduced. This cartridge propelled a 300 grain, .423 bullet at 2600 fps and a 400 grain at 2125 fps.

At the time, the 404 Jeffery was considered a fine cost alternative chambering in a repeater bolt action gun. It was hailed as a good African and India game stopper. Today, with higher integrity bullets, it's probably that much better.

Now if the 404 Jeffery Nitro Express is a good stopper, how could the 458 Win with todays 450 and 500 grain mono solids at 2250 fps and 2150 fps not be excellent stoppers?

[ 10-24-2002, 09:32: Message edited by: rossi ]

The 458 Win Mag was a mistake to start with, especially since Winchester had a 375 H&H length action to work with! The 458 Win Mag should have been a blown out 375 H&H case to use a .458 dia bullet of 480 grs,@ 2150 to duplicate the 450NE 3.25" Express cartridge it was trying to replace!

The 458 Win Mag suffers from too little powder capacity, for the .458 bore dia, with only 93.29 grs water. This lack of powder capacity is even more evident with cartridges like the 45-70, with it's enemic 75.51 grs water. The 458 lott is just about right, with it's almost 130.0 grs water, and is capable of handleing the 500 gr bullets properly. My choice, however would still be the Woodliegh 480 gr soft, and solid, loaded up to about 2150 fps.

The fact that Winchester screwed up with the 458 Win Mag is not in debate, but the fact is it is here, and just like any other cartridge handloading can make it into a decent chambering, if the proper powders, and bullets weights are used. The 458 Win Mag is simply too small to handle the 500 gr bullets properly, so what is wrong with useing the bullet Winchester should have used in the first place, the 450, to 480 gr bullets, and a powder that dousn't fill so high it is crushed by the bullet, when loaded.

I agree with the view that most 458 Win Mags bought today will be rechambered for something with more powder capacity, and that will keep the sales up for a while. I, myself, have a new, unfired Ruger No1 458 Win Mag, that is slated to be made into a 450NE 3.25", but with proper handloads the 458 Win Mag would do, especially for Big Brown Bears, in the alders of Alaska. For this use, the "Ruger No1" is far more a draw back than the 458 Win Mag cartridge, in my view!

[ 10-24-2002, 22:18: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

HI,

GEORGE S,I see where you said MR. Saeed used Vitavuori oy powder for the 458 and got a 500 grain bullet going 2100fps.Does that powder generally give a higher fps and lower pressure than other powders. I would be interested in it as maybe I could use it for my 50-110 and get more fps without increasing the pressure.I do not know much about Vitavuori so maybe you could inform me.I have got some information of reloading the 50-110 with H4895 and H322 would Vitavuori be a better choice. Thanks,Kev

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MacD37:
"but the fact is it is here, and just like any other cartridge handloading can make it into a decent chambering, if the proper powders, and bullets weights are used."

I think that's about all Rusty Gunn wanted to know, Mac. Of course the Lott is superior but the Winnie is better today than it was.