Good point Bwanamich. That is certainly a possibility.

It's amazing the risks people take on these eco-tours - usually because of ignorance.

But also because some folks choose not to think about the risks, or the consequences that may ensue if and when things go wrong, as they sometimes do.

This guide screwed up. Royally.

He almost got a billionaire killed.

You don't get a good tip for that kind of service.

according to Siebel's account the elephant was 4 yards away when the guide finally fired-AND MISSED. even if you give the guide the benefit of the doubt and say the ele was 10 yards away when he fired, how does an experienced guide/PH/whatever miss a target the size of a 55 gallon drum at 10 yards? even a fairly wide miss of the brain at 10 yards should at least concuss the elephant or turn the charge. it seems fairly obvious he missed the skull completely- at less than 10 yards. i am sure some sort of investigation was done later and the facts/conclusion of it would make interesting reading. bottom line though is that the guide failed miserably in his primary objective- PROTECT THE CLIENT!!!

Yes the guide missed............... the brain not the elephant at around 12 yds!

who remembers the Bob Fontana incident? no one seemed to talk down on the phs' inability to protect his client then. i wonder if it had been a pg rather than a ph what the reaction would have been, eh?

Tom mentions that he heard the wind knocked out of the Guide. I have heard it said that an elephant can swipe you with its trunk at twice the energy that an NFL plyer can exert in a tackle. It is quite likely that the man was concussed and only came around afterwards.

It would be interesting to check whether the guide did infact miss the elephant or its brain. There are a good few guides out there who are arrogant enough to believe that warning shots stop elephants, mostly because they have had very limited experience with them.
The bottom line is that most guides don't spend enough time practicing with their rifles and even less time knowing where to shoot. If he was infact shooting with solids, there is a very good chance that his 4 yard shot was aimed high at the point of aim that would have been required of a 20 yard shot as is most often showing in text books etc.

With regards to the Bambi theory I think Judge has got it partially right, however its not to do with the guides view, its the tourists and lodge owners who hold sway here. It is a well known fact that if you shoot an animal in self defence and cannot prove that it was 100% necessary you are going to be out of a job quickly. This I believe may have been in the guides mind when that elephant came in.

Forgetting all else here, the guide should have known better than to take a client into close proximity of a breeding herd without being in a position to make a safe exit or being able to shoot his way out of trouble.
Having guided before you always want to hold the high ground when viewing breeding herds, or be at least far enough away or beyond a major obstacle to make the elephants progress less easy.
That said, to have a cow elephant come all the way in from 200 yards is extemely rare, especially to have her push straight on and attack. It would be interetsing to see if this elephant was not perhaps wounded. One other thing to consider here is that the guide may have unwittingly walked himself between mother and calf and in so doing signed the attack order. 200 yards just isn't enough if you cant shoot.
If anyone can get the guides story I think it would be far more informative and possibly shed some light.

an earlier incident in the same reserve - an ele charged a tourist vehicle 3 times before the guide eventually bowled her over. Not because he was incapable but because he knew the shit that he would get into afterwards. The resulting investigation by the authorities almost had the guide thrown in jail (He may have been forced to leave his job subsequently?) and endless drama ensued.

cause of charge: They found a "still born" baby elephant nearby.

By Hunters Quest

quote:

With regards to the Bambi theory I think Judge has got it partially right, however its not to do with the guides view, its the tourists and lodge owners who hold sway here. It is a well known fact that if you shoot an animal in self defence and cannot prove that it was 100% necessary you are going to be out of a job quickly. This I believe may have been in the guides mind when that elephant came in.

Isn't that want I said in my post... or at least what I meant?

By JudgeG

quote:

I'm sure that it is in the back of every tour guide's mind whose "feelings" will get hurt and what income will be lost if Dumbo or the Lion King get shot. (And, I use the word Tour Guide not to disparage the guy with the gun, but a "tour", not a "safari" is what most of the customers expect.) Heck, folks who think animals have human feelings, rights and compulsions are the primary income source and whose visits pay the bills at eco lodges. Brain shot elephants, meat recovery trucks, vultures eating the eyes of a "sweet" animal do not encourage more patronage when the client base thinks Dumbo really flew or that wart hogs are embarassed when they fart.

In any event, I'd sure like to know what the guide had to say, his experience level and training (both actual and required by law), if he was still employed or there were any witness present who knew elephant behavior.

Somewhere else on AR, there is a thread about what it takes to be a P.H. or game guide in Zimbabwe. I wonder if Tanzania or Kenya have such rigid requirements and it would be interesting to see a comparison.

In the meantime, it is incumbent upon anyone who goes to Africa, Bambi Believer or 20 safari vet, to understand that it's not the zoo and make decisions accordingly. Otherwise, you may be experiencing risks for which you have no plan.... and no .450 N.E. in your hand!

At 64 years-old, I'm still a risk taker. I'd venture to say that most of us here, are. When young, I probably could have parleyed my education into service other than in the Marine Corps and certainly not as a Naval Aviator in jets. I still ride a Harley, sail offshore, hunt DG every year (elephants are best!) and my secondary income (after retirement from the bench) is based on whether I win or lose contested litigation. I live risks and they make me feel alive. And, yeah, occasionally I bust my butt by burning the candle (more like dynamite, perhaps) at both ends.

Still, everytime I get on my bike, I believe that some grandma wants to kill me by pulling out of a side street. In a sailboat, I think every puff of cloud is goig to build into a massive thunderbumper. In Africa, I know (because it has happened to me) that behind every bush there may be a snare-pissed buffalo just waiting to run my fat ass over. In court, I always have a declared opponent who wants me to lose the case and my costs.

Because of my choices for my job and more particularly my "leisure activities" and my attitudes thereabout, perhaps my blood pressure is a bit up, but I try to never forget where I am and what could happen to me (or mine) if I get complacent.

I don't think I'm paranoid or chicken-shit and certainly don't tremble in fear all the time, but I feel that there is something to say for being aware of your surroundings and being ready to react positively and hopefully in concert with a competent P.H. or guide instead of crapping your britches and hoping someone else bails you out.

I've just found that the old PPPPPPP rule gives you a much better chance of returning another day. Bambi-lovers, by there very nature, have a false idea of what goes on in nature. Unfortunately, eco-lodges have to cater to that stupidity or not have clients. I ain't big on eco-lodges.

A game guide at an eco-lodge? If I were one, hopefully I'd have my client's safety as my only consideration. That, with an understanding if I had to shoot a "sweet", but charging elephant, I'd have done my job and f--- 'em if they couldn't take a joke. I'd just be prepared to move on to another high-paying, but safer job... like being the moderator of the AR Political Forum?

quote:

Isn't that want I said in my post... or at least what I meant? Big Grin

You be the Judge...Judge

i wondered whether or not the person was a regular professional hunter and it sounds like the person was and does both, the way I'm reading it.

Bwanamich you "allude" to more information while not wanting to say more. It sounds like you're crediting the guide with wounding and subsequently being responsible for the elephant breaking off it's attack on the client. why not say that instead of trying to hint at it? the more important part that I would want to know is; in this version the guide was curled around his gun but conscious. Is that the case? Because if it is.........

I would not be in this situation, because if I could afford to go to Africa it would damn well be to hunt. That said, I expect my ph to have massive brass balls that prevent his being able to run faster than me. Experience should give them the know on at what point the bluff might be a real charge and steps need to be taken. At 100 yds would he be able to fire a warning shot, maybe two, and reload before it got to them?

I want the guy who has my back to worry more about my back than his job. It's sad that it is possible for them to lose their job, however I would personally feel that a person's life was more important than my job. I have to feed my kids, but they also have to respect me and have an example, if I set the example that I put my job before the well being of a person I'm responsible for......

that is not an incrimination of this guide, I'm not saying that he willingly put his job before the safety of the client. he may have the same mindset and be willing to take the fallout for protecting the person, but the drilling of his bosses to never shoot compromised his judgement, impaired his ability to make quick decisions that a ph needs to make, and it may be he wasn't quite suited for it to begin with. And if he was knocked out, incapacitated, concussed or what have you, then it was a poor judgement only and he was unable to help, that still sucks but isn't as bad as if the account is accurate and he was saving his own bacon.

Definitely in this case if he'd saved the clients bacon and lost his job he'd have been all right in the end not everybody gets billionaire clients though. (and seriously, you're a billionaire and are using a camera instead of a rifle!?!? crazy!! )

Now, somebody posted that karamojo may have missed shots. I refuse to believe that after his initial hunts, after he made his extensive study of elephant anatomy, he ever missed. True he may have had certain elephants that had their brains or hearts in the wrong places, but he never missed.

Red
PS
If I ever become senile, get Alzheimers which runs in the family etc, this is EXACTLY the type of hunt I want to go on, just give me dummy rounds, break my safety, or give me a push feed. I'd much rather my tombstone reads gored to death by an elephant than died in a bed not knowing who his kids were.