After two weeks of negotiating a hunt with a potential new customer via phone and email - which negotiations had progressed to the point of only a signature being required to seal the deal - I recently decided to show the customer away and recommend that he rather find another Outfitter to work with. This was the first time ever that I had shown business away and it did not make me happy at all but I felt it was in both of our best interests to do so…

What struck me during this process and what was reaffirmed to me when reading some of the comments in Jaco Human’s recent thread about canned lion shooting, was that there are certain misconceptions about hunting in RSA which (sometimes) may have a negative impact on RSA hunting.

Now let’s face the facts - some conceptions about RSA hunting are true, valid and may well be sufficient reason for potential clients to NOT book a hunt in RSA and we’re all fine with that - different horses for different causes as they say...

But some conceptions are not and it may well be that these misconceptions are preventing hunters from considering booking hunts in our country. This is something I would like to address...

Please let me make it clear that my intentions are not to defend or justify what we in RSA refer to as hunting or how we do things here, nor is it to try and compare RSA hunting with so-called real hunting in other countries. I’m fully aware of the fact that 99% of hunting in RSA is done behind high fence and I’m fully aware that 99% of hunting in neighbouring Zimbabwe, Zambia and Mozambique is not. I am also fully aware that there are folks out there who will never consider hunting behind a high fence and my aim is NOT to try and convince any such person otherwise.

What I’m hoping to achieve is to shed some light on one misconception being that all hunting in RSA is or equates to put-and-take hunting…

Rewind:

Right from the beginning stages of my negotiations with the hunter I alluded to in my opening paragraph, he made it clear that he wanted to hunt SCI Gold medal trophies only and had no interest in shooting anything that would not make book. I was fine with this but as our communications intensified / progressed - the hunter also wanted some sort of proof (guarantee) that such trophy animals occurred and were available in my areas…

I did my best to explain to the hunter that - even though we were hunting behind high fence in RSA and I could give him a guarantee that there were high quality trophies inside these areas based on my personal experience and trail camera evidence - I could not give him any guarantee that we would connect with any particular animal of any particular size. The ranches I hunt on are simply too big to give any guarantees in this regard...

What I figured out in subsequent correspondence was that this hunter was clearly under the impression that - as the hunt would be conducted behind high fence - I as PH should know: (1) exactly what was there - trophy-wise - and (2) how to get him to it.

Sadly; as much as I tried to explain to this individual that even though animals are fenced in - the areas I hunt are large, animals are not tied to trees and there is no guarantee that the kudu you see today will again be seen tomorrow or the day after - this Client did not seem to pay any attention to my explanation and insisted that if I were a PH worth my salt - I should be able to give him a written guarantee that he will get animals of specific minimum trophy sizes within a specific timeframe…

Although he had never set foot in Africa - it appeared he knew exactly how the game ranching and hunting business worked in South Africa and according to him - IF he had to hunt behind a fence - then it needed to be for the biggest trophies available. This was the only way he could justify to himself to hunt RSA…

Take note that (as it seems) pretty much all of this particular individual's info was gathered on the internet… And that he assumed this to be factually correct and believed it - to the point that he would not take the word of someone who lives here and earns a living from hunting over here over that of what he’d read on the www.

The impression seems to be created in some circles that all animals available for hunting in RSA are bought at auction and then released on land to be "hunted" in classical "put-and-take" style.

Now I will be the first one to admit that there might have been incidents of this nature in the past and most likely this is still going on today. But nowadays this is (in my opinion) the exception rather than the rule for one simple reason:

Given the exorbitant prices paid for animals (and not only trophy animals) at the auctions nowadays it is not financially viable to buy animals, have them transported to a high fenced ranch and then getting clients in to shoot them.

A couple of months ago a 65" kudu bull was sold for a new record price of $700K at a live auction. Prior to this - the record was sitting at something like $100K. Impala females are nowadays being sold for up to $200 and trophy rams can fetch much higher prices. The same applies to Nyala and pretty much every other game species available on auction… And it is not only the super trophies that fetch prices such as these - nor are it the "exotic" animals… Prices for every thinkable species of game sold on auction have been going up!

I recently heard from a game farmer that for next year we as Outfitters had to expect to pay roughly $1,100 for a <52" Kudu bull on auction and $700 per inch for anything bigger… This means that the buying price for a 55" kudu bull on auction this coming year should be around $3,200! What should we sell the bull we bought for "put and take" for if we were going to buy it at $3,200?

Does this not give food for thought considering there are still Outfitters who are selling their Kudu bulls for $3,000 and even less? Would it make any sense for any Outfitter to sell something for less than what they buy it for? And if all animals were indeed "put-and-take", would it have made sense for me (who have a fixed price for Kudu) to have guided clients to several 55"+ bulls over the last years?

I do not know of one hunter who would pay $100K for a trophy kudu bull - never mind $700K so the notion that "all" hunting for trophy animals is put-and-take in RSA is most certainly incorrect.

Since the colour variant craze hit this country - prices of pretty much all available game have shot through the roof. Exceptions are Sable and (to a degree) also Buffalo… Personally I hope that sanity will prevail at some point or another but it is a fact that obsession with colour variants, and horn lengths have impacted on the game ranching market - which thankfully I am not involved in.

Hunters should not confuse RSA ranch style hunting with what is offered on some ranches in e.g. Texas. And unlike my potential client who had never been to RSA but had formed his own opinion about RSA irrespective - I have actually hunted a ranch in Texas and formed my opinion firsthand. I figured out pretty quickly that we were hunting "THE" Elk and not "AN" Elk… An attempt was even made during that "hunt" for me to believe that some kind of long-horned cow available for shooting on this ranch was a Watusi which is native to Africa… As I later discovered - that cow was everything BUT a Watusi...

The vast majority of South African hunting ranches (and most certainly ALL the ranches I hunt) are inhabited by self sustaining herds of animals. Animals that were born there, are growing up here or have grown up here... and will likely die there one day - whether that be with help from a bullet, a leopard, starvation or whatever other means... If hunting on these farms were as simple as what it is sometimes made out to be - every foreign hunter who came here would have returned with a full bag of animals and every single RSA venison hunter would have returned home with a trailer full of meat after a weekend away… It does not work that way…

Thanks you for your time.

quote:

Right from the beginning stages of my negotiations with the hunter I alluded to in my opening paragraph, he made it clear that he wanted to hunt SCI Gold medal trophies only and had no interest in shooting anything that would not make book.

And that should have been the end of your conversation...

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:

quote:

Right from the beginning stages of my negotiations with the hunter I alluded to in my opening paragraph, he made it clear that he wanted to hunt SCI Gold medal trophies only and had no interest in shooting anything that would not make book.

And that should have been the end of your conversation...

You're probably right.

Thank you. This clears up many areas for us hunters based in the States and elsewhere. I am looking into another SA hunt this July and your post gives a positive feel to the situation.

Tell me, the high fenced, canned, put and take, or whatever term is used, seems only to be directed towards lion and not plains game. Is it possible to hunt lion in SA on large properties where the lion is born and lives a natural life there and not released shortly prior to the hunt? I ask as I would like to hut lion again as my Tanzania lion had a poor mane but I can't bring myself to shoot a released lion. So, is it possible to actually hunt a lion on a large ranch that is not released for whatever the fee, and the hunter be content with the mane (or perhaps not shoot)? This, rather than a released lion with a pre-set fee based on a known mane quality?
Thanks for the reply and thanks for your informative post.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:

The impression seems to be created in some circles that all animals available for hunting in RSA are bought at auction and then released on land to be "hunted" in classical "put-and-take" style.

As you know from the canned lion hunting thread, you can thank folks like Opus for fostering and feeding that misconception.

Hunting a game ranch where the animals are purchased at auction, released and allowed to breed, propagate, herd and be self sustaining over a period of time often measured in years is nothing akin to a canned lion hunt or a put and take hunt.

Of course Mike it is of little surprise that you would completely misrepresent what I posted and lean towards the extreme and ridiculous.

Good job.

I will happy hint South Africa on a fenced farm - I have done it before and thoroughly enjoyed it.
But this applies to plains game only.

I am hunt a lion or a buffalo inside a fence.

In the back of my mind I know there is a fence, and that is enough for me not to enjoy it.

well written Chris


The Tape measure seams to be a big problem all over , and he enjoyment of the hunt come second

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Thank you. This clears up many areas for us hunters based in the States and elsewhere. I am looking into another SA hunt this July and your post gives a positive feel to the situation.

Tell me, the high fenced, canned, put and take, or whatever term is used, seems only to be directed towards lion and not plains game. Is it possible to hunt lion in SA on large properties where the lion is born and lives a natural life there and not released shortly prior to the hunt? I ask as I would like to hut lion again as my Tanzania lion had a poor mane but I can't bring myself to shoot a released lion. So, is it possible to actually hunt a lion on a large ranch that is not released for whatever the fee, and the hunter be content with the mane (or perhaps not shoot)? This, rather than a released lion with a pre-set fee based on a known mane quality?
Thanks for the reply and thanks for your informative post.
Cal

Cal, there are (non-canned) lion hunts available in RSA but they are few and far between...

Parks such as Pilanesberg used to put lion out on quota (I'm not sure if they do anymore). If I'm not mistaken Aaron Nielsen hunted one of these with CVS some years back.

The PNR's around Kruger also get quotas for Lion. These are as "free ranging" as you can get in RSA but they do come at a price...

There are also the occasional lion(s) that exit(s) Parks like Kruger and for which hunting permits are issued when such lion(s) become problematic although these are typically very short notice hunts and is not for a specific animal of specific quality.

Other than the above I am not aware of any true free ranging lions available to be hunted in South Africa.

Best,

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Of course Mike it is of little surprise that you would completely misrepresent what I posted and lean towards the extreme and ridiculous.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Steve, look no further than the massive breeding operations that are going on throughout southern Africa. Those animals are being sold at auction by the thousands and wind up behind a high fence for no other reason than to be shot.

How is that any different than a lion breeding operation exactly?

The Klaserie and Timbavati still tender lion from time to time - for huge bucks of course. Most of these lion traverse between Kruger and the reserves.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Of course Mike it is of little surprise that you would completely misrepresent what I posted and lean towards the extreme and ridiculous.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Steve, look no further than the massive breeding operations that are going on throughout southern Africa. Those animals are being sold at auction by the thousands and wind up behind a high fence for no other reason than to be shot.

How is that any different than a lion breeding operation exactly?

Riiiight. Animals are purchased then trucked to farms where people ultimately wind up shooting them. They are not being purchased so that people can look at them.

The breeding and game capture industry is a R1.65 billion dollar industry in RSA. You don't suppose they are all just going straight to petting farms and grocery stores do you?

They are being purchased so that they can become part of sustainable herds with a managed off take of limited numbers of animals such that the herd is self sustaining . . . a far cry from canned lion hunts or put and take hunts.

I wonder where the misconceptions Chris spoke of come from . . . .

So at least you do admit that there are put and take operations in RSA.

Good for you. A little truth in your posts wouldn't be a bad thing. And thank you for the flattering comment that I have such a huge impact on the hunting industry. I really had no idea.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:

I really had no idea.

Now there is something we can agree on.

Oh you're such a card Mike. You just crack me up with your amazing wit.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:

I really had no idea.

Now there is something we can agree on.

Chris, Jaco and other South African operators,

Curious, what is your estimate of the percentage of the animals that are sold in game auctions in South Africa that actually find their way onto game ranches where they become part of sustainable yield herds?

Chris,

Was the guy from Texas? I know the exotic and deer industry works that way in Texas.

An individual animal is advertised and it's size, unfortunatly it is getting bloody common.

I have looked in vain for a place to hunt in Texas that I can have a hunt and not worry about the size of the animal but concentrate on the experience.

And of the 9,000 game ranches, how many are making game purchases year after year to replenish their "natural" stocks?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Chris, Jaco and other South African operators,

Curious, what is your estimate of the percentage of the animals that are sold in game auctions in South Africa that actually find their way onto game ranches where they become part of sustainable yield herds?

Mine is an unqualified answer as I do not know the exact figures and am not involved in the game trading business...

But considering the fact that not only trophy (male) animals are sold on auction and the fact that many breeding animals are sold in packages as well, I would guess that probably 80% of the animals find their way into sustainable herds.

I might of course have this totally wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
Chris,

Was the guy from Texas? I know the exotic and deer industry works that way in Texas.

An individual animal is advertised and it's size, unfortunatly it is getting bloody common.

I have looked in vain for a place to hunt in Texas that I can have a hunt and not worry about the size of the animal but concentrate on the experience.

Actually he was not. He is from Ohio.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
And of the 9,000 game ranches, how many are making game purchases year after year to replenish their "natural" stocks?

That question I cannot answer - other than saying that none of the ranches I hunt replenishes it's "stock" for hunting purposes.

Some do however occasionally introduce new animals to improve genes and prevent inbreeding.

quote:

By CT;
Hunters should not confuse RSA ranch style hunting with what is offered on some ranches in e.g. Texas.<<< snip

I have actually hunted a ranch in Texas and formed my opinion firsthand. I figured out pretty quickly that we were hunting "THE" Elk and not "AN" Elk… An attempt was even made during that "hunt" for me to believe that some kind of long-horned cow available for shooting on this ranch was a Watusi which is native to Africa… As I later discovered - that cow was everything BUT a Watusi...

Chris your above post was a very well written one pointing out the world’s misconception about RSA hunting but is doing the same thing you are complaining about!

Thinking the ranch you hunted is typical of all ranches in Texas, and it certainly is not! Most of the so-called exotics in Texas are descendants of animals brought to Texas close to 100 years ago and were born on the ranches where they are hunted. There are 252 counties in Texas and many counties that are larger than some countries. Many ranches have high fences but most are in the South of the state while most of West Texas is mostly low fence cattle ranches with exotics being free range. I don’t think there is a ranch in Texas that doesn’t have a few so-called exotics.

Like RSA Texas gets a bad rap from people from other places who only hunt the high fence ranches that advertize in magazines. Many who have never even set foot in Texas!

I hunt a ranch that is 96 thousand acres all low fence except 1800 acres that is high fenced where the lodge is located. Exotics roam the whole ranch. There are very few low fenced ranches in Texas that do not have exotics roaming their bush.

There are some real Watusi cattle in Texas, but I fail to see why anyone would want to shoot a domestic bull. The Watusi cattle are domestic cattle even in Africa!

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
Chris,

Was the guy from Texas? I know the exotic and deer industry works that way in Texas.

An individual animal is advertised and it's size, unfortunatly it is getting bloody common.

I have looked in vain for a place to hunt in Texas that I can have a hunt and not worry about the size of the animal but concentrate on the experience.

BWW,
You are doing the same thing to Texas as Chris is with a wide paint brush! If you are only looking on the internet or in magazine adds for hunting in Texas then all you will find is the high fence operations, which are only about 10% of the ranches in Texas. It is 800 miles across Texas from East to West, and 1400 miles north to south in Texas, and to listen to people on the Net you would thing the whole state is behind a high fence. It is not I can assure you!

There are many ranches that offer hunting leases, or day hunting for free range deer and exotics, Any news paper in Texas will have adds for day hunting on private ranches for deer and exotics. These adds are usually in the papers around the latter part of August through Sept and most of the fall every year.

The accusations made about Texas are no more true that the ones made about RSA, all are made by a person who have never even been in Texas, or if they have it was on one of the commercial hunting ranches that their whole income is from hunting, while there are thousands of cattle rinches who offer day hunting ot a year round hunting leases.

.................................................................... BYE!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

By CT;
Hunters should not confuse RSA ranch style hunting with what is offered on some ranches in e.g. Texas.<<< snip

I have actually hunted a ranch in Texas and formed my opinion firsthand. I figured out pretty quickly that we were hunting "THE" Elk and not "AN" Elk… An attempt was even made during that "hunt" for me to believe that some kind of long-horned cow available for shooting on this ranch was a Watusi which is native to Africa… As I later discovered - that cow was everything BUT a Watusi...

Chris your above post was a very well written one pointing out the world’s misconception about RSA hunting but is doing the same thing you are complaining about!

Thinking the ranch you hunted is typical of all ranches in Texas, and it certainly is not! Most of the so-called exotics in Texas are descendants of animals brought to Texas close to 100 years ago and were born on the ranches where they are hunted. There are 252 counties in Texas and many counties that are larger than some countries. Many ranches have high fences but most are in the South of the state while most of West Texas is mostly low fence cattle ranches with exotics being free range. I don’t think there is a ranch in Texas that doesn’t have a few so-called exotics.

Like RSA Texas gets a bad rap from people from other places who only hunt the high fence ranches that advertize in magazines. Many who have never even set foot in Texas!

I hunt a ranch that is 96 thousand acres all low fence except 1800 acres that is high fenced where the lodge is located. Exotics roam the whole ranch. There are very few low fenced ranches in Texas that do not have exotics roaming their bush.

There are some real Watusi cattle in Texas, but I fail to see why anyone would want to shoot a domestic bull. The Watusi cattle are domestic cattle even in Africa!

With all due respect Mac, my thread was not about Texas and in no way was I diminishing or generalizing Texas hunting.


On the contrary; I think the example I used of the Texas Ranch incident and the surrounding circumstances illustrated precisely what you are saying namely that some "misconceptions" are borne from the uneducated views of individual(s) as opposed to fact. That was all I was trying to bring across. Nothing more and nothing less.

I know that not all hunting in Texas is done the way I experienced it and was never implying all Texas Ramch hunting is done this way.

Similarly; not all RSA hunting is put and take...

We're actually on the same side here...

On a ranch hunt in KZN the PH and I came upon a large herd of impala. One of the rams had truly impressive horns with wide, out swept tips. It reminded me of those East African impala. I was not allowed to shoot that ram as he was recently imported to the property for breeding purposes.

There were lots of impala on the property that were clearly reproducing very well. I eventually shot a ram I was satisfied with. I also enjoyed seeing game of all ages on the property. On fenced properties I see no problem with bringing in unrelated animals to keep the genetics fresh. Fencing has its downfalls but it has provided a lot of people an unforgettable safari experience. It's also kept wild game alive in RSA which is a good thing. There are obviously good and bad land owners, PH's and what not. Chris, I think you made the right call with this potential client. He will probably find someone to sign on the dotted line and when he conducts his hunt he will go home very disappointed.

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:

We're actually on the same side here...

Actually I was agreeing with you! People who do not know of what speak of, yet making blanket assessments made because of ill informed statements made on subjects, because of what they read on the internet! RSA,and Texas being two of the most maligned places where hunting is concerned!

You are right we do agree!

Chris,

That guy was a problem waiting to happen from the get go. You were very wise to drop him. It would appear he was looking for the type of hunt where you pick the pasture with the animals scoring x,y or z dependent on what score you want and your budget. I don't know of anything like that in RSA. It might be possible to make some special arrangement for a specific animal but as a general rule I think most of the hunting is like what you described.

Recently and actually most of last month I hunted in your country and saw many thousands of acres not behind any game fences at all. I hunted Natal, the Stormberg and the Eastern Cape. The hunting was much like hunting big private ranches in Wyoming or Montana only there was a lot more game and variety of game. I guess the point is that hunters that are going to RSA just have to ask some educated questions before booking because they can buy about any type of experience they could desire.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
Chris,

Was the guy from Texas? I know the exotic and deer industry works that way in Texas.

An individual animal is advertised and it's size, unfortunatly it is getting bloody common.

I have looked in vain for a place to hunt in Texas that I can have a hunt and not worry about the size of the animal but concentrate on the experience.

Actually he was not. He is from Ohio.

They also have a similar system, but the properties are in usually even smaller.

Kill it, mount it, then brag about it to their friends.

I am more about the experience. I will also say that I am not much of a collector, but the smaller felines and animals interest me that way. I'd probably get a lifesize of a Bat Eared Fox before I would a cape buffalo. Even if they were the same size and cost the same.

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:
On a ranch hunt in KZN the PH and I came upon a large herd of impala. One of the rams had truly impressive horns with wide, out swept tips. It reminded me of those East African impala. I was not allowed to shoot that ram as he was recently imported to the property for breeding purposes.

That would irritate me to no end...I don't think I would have handled that as well as you did. I'm there to hunt not have a look at their livestock....

Chris, well written!

A very well-written comment. Don't know if I would have used the word "hunter" though.

Hi Chris,

Your comments on this subject is by far the best informed I have seen on AR.

I have owned a Game Ranch in the Waterberg area for the past 15 years having taken over an old cattle grazing area.

This required the stocking of game from scratch and managing same since. Most people just don't realise the role that hunting plays in the management of a game farm is ONLY part of the over ecological management plan which is driven by :

First the soils
Second flora
AND thirdly the fauna.

This determines the carrying capacity and hence the annual take off of animals. Most of this for the meat market and only few qualify for Trophy's.

We have the trophy's taken off our ranch by a PH with overseas clients and handle the balance ourselves. Most well run Ranches follow similar approaches although biltong hunters tend to be used to handle the meat take off.

The purchase of new animals is only to add a new species or to add new genes.

Given the above facts and my own personal experience in the industry, for people to believe that hunting trophy's drives the management of game ranches and that we as owners run around purchasing animals just for outsider to shoot is just not correct. That is the same as stating "the tail wags the dog"

Trophy hunting on game ranches is an important contributor to our income BUT more importantly is only part of a bigger management plan.

Thanks for your well thought out contribution.

Regard

Allan

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
I guess the point is that hunters that are going to RSA just have to ask some educated questions before booking because they can buy about any type of experience they could desire.

Mark

100 % spot on Mark , it is only the uninformed , ignorant or vindictive individuals with hidden agendas that claim that all South African hunting is put and take.

There is some fantastic hunting to be had on Ranches and open areas alike.

If you , however insist on the new world record or what Chris described above , well , you're going to get what's coming to you -- outfitter , hunting( shooting ) experience and area alike.

Ask the right questions , get references and deal with a reputable Outfitter / Agent.

Good hunting

And Jan no one has stated that all South African hunting is put and take. But it is wise for hunters to become educated and ask questions before booking with anybody.

BWW,
You are doing the same thing to Texas as Chris is with a wide paint brush! If you are only looking on the internet or in magazine adds for hunting in Texas then all you will find is the high fence operations, which are only about 10% of the ranches in Texas. It is 800 miles across Texas from East to West, and 1400 miles north to south in Texas, and to listen to people on the Net you would thing the whole state is behind a high fence. It is not I can assure you!

There are many ranches that offer hunting leases, or day hunting for free range deer and exotics, Any news paper in Texas will have adds for day hunting on private ranches for deer and exotics. These adds are usually in the papers around the latter part of August through Sept and most of the fall every year.

The accusations made about Texas are no more true that the ones made about RSA, all are made by a person who have never even been in Texas, or if they have it was on one of the commercial hunting ranches that their whole income is from hunting, while there are thousands of cattle rinches who offer day hunting ot a year round hunting leases.

:[/QUOTE]

Mac,

Everytime I call a Texas outfitter I get one of three responses:

1. It is a 3 day hunt, you get here on (Friday for instance) hunt that day and should be done the morning of the next day. Once you have taken your animal your hunt is over. This isn't what I am interested in, I am coming down there for a vacation with my rifle. Put me on a water hole with a game caller and let me try and kill some coyotes if nothing else. I call this the "bang, flop, now give me the money and get out of here". It is not a only Texas thing.

2. You are interested in "animal-x", oh yes I have a big one. I can text you photos of him. As Chris said not elk, but an elk, his name is Hermie.

3. Rarely do I ever get this answer " We have a lot of animals, but it is a nice place to relax and get away from life". I think you'll have a lot of fun here. To me the hunt is important.

I wish Texas was closer, I'd have a lease and life would be pretty good. I probably need to look at a lease here in California next year.

My intent was not to paint Texas with the same brush. I know a lot of good low fence hunting exist, Texas has a wide variety of hunting opportunities. It seems as though seperating the shit from the pot is really hard sometimes.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
And Jan no one has stated that all South African hunting is put and take. But it is wise for hunters to become educated and ask questions before booking with anybody.

Opus,

I agree that it is wise for hunters to become educated and ask questions.

With respect though... statements such as the ones I've inserted below (copied from some of your earlier posts on the lion thread) can quite easily be misconstrued as saying all South African hunting is put and take.

And I don't believe this is of educational value.

quote:

...if hunting on 2,000 hectare and chasing animals behind a high fence that were just dropped off the back of a truck last week is "proper" to you, I would say that you need to get out more.

quote:

Steve, look no further than the massive breeding operations that are going on throughout southern Africa. Those animals are being sold at auction by the thousands and wind up behind a high fence for no other reason than to be shot. In just RSA, the game breeding and game translocation business exceeded R$1.65 billion in 2013. Those animals did not wind up in petting zoos.

quote:

Ummmm trophy quality animals are commonly purchased and released days to weeks prior to being shot.

quote:

Trophy animals are raised and transported to properties to be killed.

quote:

Now Skyline, replace the lion cubs and insert Kudu, Sable, or Roan or whatever other than crocodile maybe and your statement is equally accurate. Granted, to some lions are cuter, however few would understand the R1.65 billion dollar industry of raising animals to populate small high fenced farms for the expressed purpose of hanging their head on a wall.

Chris, I believe we can all agree that the practice of put and take does happen. The point that I was batting around with Mike was his anemic attempt to draw a distinction between pet lion shooting and farm hunting. The point is, farm hunting relies on stock and while many farms are large enough to support a sustainable herd, some are not, thus put and take operations. Strangely some people have a problem with a lion being raised behind a high fence for the purposes of being killed, as opposed to say a Kudu being raised behind a high fence for the purposes of being killed.

And yes, there are still trophy to order operations going on. While they are the exception to the rule, they do in fact exist. They are no different than pet lion shooting or the trophy operations here in the US.

If you somehow believed I was speaking about your business specifically, then I apologize. I have absolutely no idea what you do, where you hunt, the quality of your animals or how they got there.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
And Jan no one has stated that all South African hunting is put and take. But it is wise for hunters to become educated and ask questions before booking with anybody.

Opus ( I wish members would use their real identity ) , with all due respect , your posts certainly are insinuating at the very least. Definitely not pro South African hunting at all. Which off course is your right on an open forum like this.

Yes , we do have put and take hunting operations, just like many other countries all over the world - The States , New Zealand , Hungary to name a few , and countries a lot closer to home , but its not the majority of operations. Your posts , however , make it seem that way to anyone out there who doesn't know any better and puts ethical South African hunting operations in a bad light and taints us all the same color. This is bad for hunting -- period.

Good hunting

Well you are correct. I have hunted southern Africa sine the late 1980's and I choose not to hunt on high fenced farms. I have hunted on the Klaserie and Timbavati and would rather hunt those types of areas in RSA.

I have no problems with farm hunting as long as everyone is honest about what is taking place. Same with pet lion shooting. As long as those involved are not confusing it with fair chase wild lion hunting, then I am OK with it. I certainly would never consider shooting a pet lion any more than I would a trophy animal behind a high fence on a small farm.

That doesn't make one hunting experience any more ethical or less than the other. To each his own.