While I was reading about the .44 Magnum, I stumbled upon this.

http://www.sixguns.com/crew/sskbullets.htm

quote:

In terms of handgun hunting cartridges, the .44 Magnum is truly a definitive landmark. Likewise, in terms of handgun hunting bullets, the SSK .44 FP has an equally important and unique niche in handgun hunting history. This bullet loaded into .44 Magnum revolvers has penetrated the thick, tough, pithy skulls of bull elephant, and slain them in their tracks. It has laid low Cape buffalo, bashed the big bears, and slain kudu bulls and tough zebra stallions.

Is it true that the .44 Magnum took down elephants and Cape Buffaloes? How true is the claim and even it it is true, how ethical could it be?

Appreciate your replies.Thank you.

Best-
Locksley,R.

I'd assume that it's been done, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

Might have been Larry Kelly who did the elephant. Think Seyfried killed a Cape buffalo with a sixgun. Truly, in any but the most skilled hands and even with a PH backing with a big rifle, this is a stunt, an invitation to disaster and I don't think it shows a whole lot of respect for the game.
That's my opinion. Closest I have been to an elephant was a stack of poop in Namibia, so to take it for what it is worth.

Larry Kelly of Mag-Na-Port did it. So have many others. Today there are better and more powerful handguns and rounds available. There is even a separate record book for "alternative methods".

In 2005 I took a Cape Buffalo in the Mozambique swamps with a S&W 500 revolver shooting Grizzly Cartridge Co. 440gr. WFNGC cast performance bullets. I've also taken a number of top 10 african species with a handgun and even made one of my safaris "handgun only". I've taken handguns into RSA, Zimbabwe, Mozambique and Zambia on safari.

I don't know why anyone who has admittedly not hunted Elephant would call handgun hunting for DG a stunt, when by making such a statement one demonstrates their complete ignorance of handgun hunting. One of the DVDs made by Buzz has handgunners hunting Ele with the S&W 500.

BTW, last I checked 99.9% of safari hunters, regardless of weapon, have "a PH backing with a big rifle". Perhaps you should consider showing some of the "respect" you speak of for alternative method hunters. I'll bet you have an opinion on also.

I think any situation where a hunter hunts an animal with a marginal weapon, it is unethical "stunt" hunting. In these cases, the only player who stands to lose is the animal, with injuries or a slow inhumane death if the hunter is unsuccessful. The hunter lives to try again, and again...

While, with the right ammo(bullet x velocity)it can most likely be done, I agree that the most of us that really like our handgun hunting aren't up to the task. The .44 would most likely be marginal at best and you better hope your backup doesn't miss. I've seen the Cape buff soak up an amazing amount of energy just to get up and charge again. And that's with .416's and up. Don't believe I would try it.

You should not hunt any animal with a weapon that, if that animal is wounded you cannot use the same weapon to follow up with.

quote:

Originally posted by zimguide:
You should not hunt any animal with a weapon that, if that animal is wounded you cannot use the same weapon to follow up with.

Are you saying you cant use a 44mag with suitable ammo to follow-up??

Mike:
I said in any but the most skilled hands, handgun hunting dangerous game is a stunt. Apparently you're a skilled handgun hunter. More power to you. The .500 is a whole lot more revolver than a .44 Mag. I've been shooting handguns for 42 years, including .44 Magnums. I personally would not care to hunt elephant or Cape buffalo with one. Nor would I hunt either species with a bow.

It can be "Unethical" if the hunter is poorly prepared, or feels like he has to shoot from 50 yds, or further on large game animals. I've done a handguns-only hunt in Africa that didn't include a Buff, but did include a tuskless Elephant. Doing so I accepted that to be ethical I would have to be VERY selective in the shots I was willing to take. I was willing to wait, or pass altogether if a virtually ideal set-up could not be achieved. As a result, my head count for that hunt was well below what I had previously achieved when hunting rifles-only. PREPARATION..PREPARATION...and PATIENCE.

Don, what handgun did you hunt with?

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by zimguide:
You should not hunt any animal with a weapon that, if that animal is wounded you cannot use the same weapon to follow up with.

Are you saying you cant use a 44mag with suitable ammo to follow-up??

I am saying that you should be able to finish the job with what you start it with. If you wound an Ele, Buff lion etc with a .44 or .50 would you be happy following it up with that?

I am sure it can be done. I am also sure there isn't a chance in hell that I would try it.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Might have been Larry Kelly who did the elephant. Think Seyfried killed a Cape buffalo with a sixgun.

Ross did it with a 5-shot .45 Colt which is more akin to the modern .454 Casull than to a .44 mag. The fact that he was an active PH and a former IPSC World Champion put him ahead of masses on this one.

I shot an elephant bull and buffalo bull with a .41 mag in Matusadona as a demo to the National Parks directorate when we were getting handgun and black powder hunts legalised (again - they were legal before 1989). Side on under good conditions you can get away with most things. I can think of at least three of my fellow parks officers who have shot lion (9mm parra) and Buff (.357 mag and .45 ACP) with handguns.

I personally prefer a handgun to a bow...BUT most bow hunters I have guided have been good with their chosen weapon, whereas most handgun hunters have not...they have been good on the range, but in all but one case I have had the 'pleasure' of a follow up on buff (3), elephant (2- lost both) and one lion.

You really do need to have hunted the game before with a rifle before you try it with a handgun.

My own personal opinion (and it's no more than that), is if you're going to hunt an animal with a weapon, you should be following him up with the same weapon. That includes bow, handgun, etc. If you're not willing to go into the alders after a wounded brown bear with your bow leading the way, or after a wounded cape buffalo or elephant leading the way with your handgun it's a stunt. If you are, my hat's off to you.

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
My own personal opinion (and it's no more than that), is if you're going to hunt an animal with a weapon, you should be following him up with the same weapon. That includes bow, handgun, etc. If you're not willing to go into the alders after a wounded brown bear with your bow leading the way, or after a wounded cape buffalo or elephant leading the way with your handgun it's a stunt. If you are, my hat's off to you.

100%

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Might have been Larry Kelly who did the elephant. Think Seyfried killed a Cape buffalo with a sixgun. Truly, in any but the most skilled hands and even with a PH backing with a big rifle, this is a stunt, an invitation to disaster and I don't think it shows a whole lot of respect for the game.
That's my opinion. Closest I have been to an elephant was a stack of poop in Namibia, so to take it for what it is worth.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:

I don't know why anyone who has admittedly not hunted Elephant would call handgun hunting for DG a stunt, when by making such a statement one demonstrates their complete ignorance of handgun hunting. One of the DVDs made by Buzz has handgunners hunting Ele with the S&W 500.

BTW, last I checked 99.9% of safari hunters, regardless of weapon, have "a PH backing with a big rifle". Perhaps you should consider showing some of the "respect" you speak of for alternative method hunters. I'll bet you have an opinion on also.

Bill, it seems the opinion police chief has spoken! Don’t worry, opinions are like a-holes, everybody has one and some smell worse than others but all are valuable to their owners, not so much to others! Others rarely see folks as they see themselves! It seems, in this case, LH's opinion is worth considerably more than your's, at least in his OPINION!

.......................................................................

OK, I think perhaps the majority of replies in this thread are simply the result of ignorance of modern handguns, their appropriate loads and hunting techniques. I naively thought big game hunters were more knowledgeable. I am not trying to speak for the handgun hunting community here, just for myself. Here are a few facts regarding my handgun experience.

I have carried a handgun almost daily since I was 18.5 years old; I am now 65.5 (and grateful to have beaten the alternative). I was required to qualify with my carry handgun multiple times per year. I shot both PPC and combat courses of fire with a variety of revolvers and pistols. I never failed to qualify.

I have been fortunate to hunt extensively worldwide, primarily with a rifle, including many african safaris in 8 sub-Saharan countries, most more than once. My bag includes the dangerous seven with multiples of Buff, Ele and Hippo. It is my habit to shoot hundreds of rounds from my chosen firearm for months leading up to my safari.

My first hunting handgun was a .480Ruger taken over in 2003. When the S&W 500 came along I opted for it and took it over in 2004 and again on a handgun only hunt in 2005. I have been fortunate to find and take world record quality animals with both those calibers. The S&W 500 is an exceptional large bore firearm, IMO.

If anyone doubts the ability of a proper 440gr. .50 caliber bullet fired from an 8.75" bbl. to successfully kill a Buff or Ele at under 25 yards, then nothing I say will make you understand. Finding the proper set-up is certainly more critical with a handgun on DG. When necessary, I have always followed-up with my handgun; why would I not? These handguns are legal for DG in many countries, as Ganyana points out, and I agree with his statement that hunting DG with a rifle prior to doing so with a handgun is certainly an advantage.

I understand that those unfamiliar with hunting handguns and/or inexperienced with their use might consider DG hunting with a handgun to be a "stunt" or unethical, but I firmly believe that neither is the case when the appropriate handgun is in the hands of a properly trained and experienced individual. Since I always attempt to get close on Buff and Ele with a rifle, why would I not do the same with a handgun? Ridiculous!

BTW, I would never hunt DG with a bow or a muzzle loader, nor with any single shot firearm. But I wouldn't call those that do unethical or refer to it as a "stunt". I just think they're nuts because when a quick follow-up is necessary, they don't have it available, whereas with my double action revolvers, I have 4 or 5 more shots ready immediately. I also believe the .44Mag is not an ideal DG cartridge and do not advocate its use as such.

I am not suggesting that someone who buys a large bore handgun, shoots a box of ammo and then books a DG hunt to utilize that handgun is correct, no more than someone who would do the same with a double rifle. But a proper handgun in the hands of an experienced hunter is not a stunt nor is it unethical.

A longer than intended post, but I do hope it provides some food for thought regarding handgun hunting of DG.

I would never even consider using a handgun on a DG hunt, but that's because I am not very good with one.
With todays super hi-powered pistols & very good quality ammo, I see no reason that someone proficent with a handgun could not get the job done.
Just because I can't do it or wouldn't do it doesn't mean I don't support those that do.
That & a dollar & a half will get you a small cup of coffee. Maybe!

Mike, thank you for sharing your experience in greater depth. That .500 is a different kettle o' fish!
Ganyana, can I ask what bullet you were shooting in that .41 Maggie?

I took 3 handguns to Africa on my "Handguns only" hunt. A Ruger single action .357/44 Bain & Davis, A S&W M-57, 8 3/8th bbl .41 mag, and a Thompson Contender built by JD Jones for me (when he was still operating out of the basement of his Ohio home) in .375 JDJ, 14" bbl, iron sights. It was 1980. The Contender wound up taking most of the animals I got on that trip. I made that trip at a time when I was shooting A LOT of handgun competition, hundreds of rounds per week. I won a bet at my gunclub by breaking a Ritz cracker with the .375 JDJ,offhand from 50 yds. Had to do it twice to "prove" the first one wasn't a fluke. Glad I didn't have to do it again..!!

Bill/Oregon -

I enjoyed our off-line chat and encourage you to give the S&W 500 a try. Stay with the lighter 325gr. loads to start and I do believe you will enjoy loading and shooting it. Honestly, one of the sweetest handguns I've ever shot extensively. Go with the 8.75" bbl. if you make the decision.

I've had exceptional success with mounting an EOTech and a Bushnell scope on a Warne rail. They will take the recoil whereas many other quality scopes will not. I'll gladly send you some once fired cases to load if you'd like.

Good luck and let me know if I can help further.

There's a big difference between the .44 mag (the topic of this thread) and some of the larger handgun cartridges being mentioned. Under the right conditions and waiting for the right shot, I'd go after buff with a .500 S&W, .475 Linebaugh, etc. I would not attempt such a feat with a .44 mag.

Gents:
This is an old debate. While it matters not to me what another hunts with, my question is why would anyone hunt elephant and/or buffalo with a cartridge suited for white tail? I know lots of hairy chested he-men who hunt big game with a bow and handgun but have a rifleman as backup.

I understand that the muzzle energy calculation is does not give a complete picture of killing power, but I seem to recall the .44 magnum has about 2/3 of the ME of a .30-30. Me thinks using such a round puts all in danger and adds to the potential suffering of the quarry.

Of course, some of us go the other way. I will hunt caribou with my .600!
Just my opinion. Be gentle.
Cal

I’ve smacked countless Impala, Bushbuck, BoBos, wart hogs, southern hogs, a Blessbuck, a Bontebok, several Springbuck, and countless Adders, Mambas, Tsetse flies, tics, a pile of Mopani flies, and other vermin with a S&W Pro Hunter II .44. It just never crossed my mind that shooting a Buff or Ele with one would be a good idea.

If you can afford the trophy fees and your PH is OK with the potential outcome... whatever... I just believe it is proper form to notify the trackers your intentions. At least they can start running before you start shooting.

Modern handguns are more than capable in killing both buffalo and elephants - in the right hands!

But, my main concern about this is the limitation it places on the hunter.

With a rifle and scope, one has infinitely more choice of a shot. Much more than one would with a handgun.

Gentlemen, it seems the smiley face was missed in my post above and drew the ire of LionHunter! For that I’m sorry if I didn’t do that post as intended so it wouldn’t be misinterpreted. It was not my intention to create a impasse between myself and LionHunter. It just seemed to me that he was simply a little hard on Bill/Oregon’s take on this subject but a post doesn’t always come out the way you mean it. I know that better than most here!

..........................................................................

One of the real problem issues with the internet is how we each can interpret the same written word differently than the writer intended. There is no inflection nor tone in an internet exchange, unlike when we communicate voice to voice. And we don't see the smile on each others face nor the twinkle in our eyes. I know that's what happened to some of us in this thread.

Cheers to all

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Gents:
This is an old debate. While it matters not to me what another hunts with, my question is why would anyone hunt elephant and/or buffalo with a cartridge suited for white tail? I know lots of hairy chested he-men who hunt big game with a bow and handgun but have a rifleman as backup.

I understand that the muzzle energy calculation is does not give a complete picture of killing power, but I seem to recall the .44 magnum has about 2/3 of the ME of a .30-30. Me thinks using such a round puts all in danger and adds to the potential suffering of the quarry.

Lynn Thompson comprehensively slammed multiple Asiatic buffalo (17 in total) in 2008 with us, with a 44 magnum handgun - ME had little to do with it. Penetration surprised everyone. I watched him deck one big bull that didnt go more than 50m - but then Lynn is a very good shot with that wheelgun and he had 4 shots into it befor it dropped - he turned him into a swiss cheese.

I often carry that same gun as backup - when in buffalo country but when only hunting other smaller game (not specifically hunting buffalo.

Just sayin...

Matt, they still let you have handguns in Australia? Thank God the government hasn't lost all sense...

About 15 years ago, my Dad and brothers and I journeyed to Wrangell, Alaska, for some salmon fishing on a tributary of the Stikine River. A local Tlingkit elder helped us set up camp, which was in brown/grizzly country. When I showed him my bear medicine, a stainless Redhawk in .44 with hot-handloaded 340-grain LFN bullets, he tried to stifle a smile. "Shoot all six, then throw it at him," was his advice. Hiis bear medicine was simple: an early warning device (AKA a dog) and a 12-gauge pump stuffed with slugs.
Just sayin' ...

Mike/Lionhunter: See my post in the handgun hunting forum.

quote:

Mike/Lionhunter: See my post in the handgun hunting forum.

Done, and posted in the thread.

This thread reminds of the scene in Taxi Driver when the gun dealer is selling him the .44, saying they use it to hunt elephants in Africa. I always thought this was false, but the .500 has done it. I wonder about the .50AE Desert Eagle, too.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Gents:
This is an old debate. While it matters not to me what another hunts with, my question is why would anyone hunt elephant and/or buffalo with a cartridge suited for white tail? I know lots of hairy chested he-men who hunt big game with a bow and handgun but have a rifleman as backup.

I understand that the muzzle energy calculation is does not give a complete picture of killing power, but I seem to recall the .44 magnum has about 2/3 of the ME of a .30-30. Me thinks using such a round puts all in danger and adds to the potential suffering of the quarry.

Of course, some of us go the other way. I will hunt caribou with my .600!
Just my opinion. Be gentle.
Cal

And I know from personal observation how well you shoot that .600NE Wilkes double, my friend!

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Gents:
This is an old debate. While it matters not to me what another hunts with, my question is why would anyone hunt elephant and/or buffalo with a cartridge suited for white tail? I know lots of hairy chested he-men who hunt big game with a bow and handgun but have a rifleman as backup.

I understand that the muzzle energy calculation is does not give a complete picture of killing power, but I seem to recall the .44 magnum has about 2/3 of the ME of a .30-30. Me thinks using such a round puts all in danger and adds to the potential suffering of the quarry.

Of course, some of us go the other way. I will hunt caribou with my .600!
Just my opinion. Be gentle.
Cal

And I know from personal observation how well you shoot that .600NE Wilkes double, my friend. I pity the caribou!

A recently deceased and long time DSC member shot the big five several times using a number of Freedom Arms 454 Casull. He had a Haliburton brief case with 3 pistol in different configuraations and barrel lengths. I watched a video of him slowly walk up to a Cape with the revolver hidden behind his back and suddenly point and pull and the Cape dropped like he had a ton of cement in him. Not sure what the bullet or the construction of it was but I am sure the buff was DRT.
I had a hard time getting the job done last July with 4 rounds from a 375 H&H. Think I will stand aside and watch when it comes to the handguns. No doubt it is done.
Better tomorrows