I was looking back at the thread about what calibers PH's had their double rifles chambered in and I noticed that a few had the 500-416 NE which confuses me a little bit. According to Norma Precision ammunition's website, they say the 500-416 is designed to copy the 416 Rigby performance but in a double rifle. If a PH is using this double rifle version of a 416 Rigby, why is it considered a stopper while the 416 Rigby (a bolt action) is not? The same could be asked of cartridges like the 450-400 NE.

Are they talking about the caliber or the rifle

NORMA AFRICAN PH

500/416 NE Full metal Jacket 450 gr BC: 0,325
Distance, yards 0 50 100 150 200
Velocity, fps 2100 1975 1855 1740 1630
Trajectory, inches -1,6 0,3 0 -2,8 -8,5
Energy, ft-lb 5583 4939 4356 3832 3364
Momentum, lb-f/s 171 161 155 142 133
________________________________________________

416 Rigby Full metal Jacket 450 gr
Distance, yards 0 50 100 150 200
Velocity, fps 2150 2037 1928 1823 1722
Trajectory, inches -1.6 0.3 0 -2.6 -7.8
Energy, ft-lb 4620 4148 3715 3321 2963
Momentum, lb-f/s 138 131 124 117 111

Norma

quote:

The 500/416 NE only goes back a few years and was developed by Krieghoff who wanted a rimmed round with performance equalling that of the 416 Rigby.

I believe they're talking about the cartridge. Don't shoot the messenger.

Just because it is used by a PH does not mean that it has to be considered a "stopper". Alot of PHs use a .375.

Good question Al. Many years ago the .600 Nitro and .577 Nitro were big bores. after that, .500's and .458's were big bores, now anything over a .338 is a big bore. In fact, 2 bore and 4 bore were big bores in the black powder era. "Stopper" is a relative term. A .416 is a better stopper for lion than a .500. A .500 is a better stopper for elephant than .416 based on bullet toughness.

Yes, the same could be asked for cartridges like the 450-400 Nitro. Excellent for thin skin dangerous game. Not as excellent for thick skin dangerous game.

quote:

Originally posted by csxcs:
NORMA AFRICAN PH

500/416 NE Full metal Jacket 450 gr BC: 0,325
Distance, yards 0 50 100 150 200
Velocity, fps 2100 1975 1855 1740 1630
Trajectory, inches -1,6 0,3 0 -2,8 -8,5
Energy, ft-lb 5583 4939 4356 3832 3364
Momentum, lb-f/s 171 161 155 142 133
________________________________________________

416 Rigby Full metal Jacket 450 gr
Distance, yards 0 50 100 150 200
Velocity, fps 2150 2037 1928 1823 1722
Trajectory, inches -1.6 0.3 0 -2.6 -7.8
Energy, ft-lb 4620 4148 3715 3321 2963
Momentum, lb-f/s 138 131 124 117 111

CS,

I will admit math is not my strong suit, but I am pretty sure that the energy (momentum) increases by the square of the velocity. I would expect the identical bullet weight which travels faster to have a higher energy. Fuzzy math?

JDB I thought the same thing when I read that???? Must be a typo?

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana1:
Half the people you know are below average..

As long as we mentioned math, the above statement is not necesarily true.

http://www.norma.cc/content.as...16%20Nitro%20Express

http://www.norma.cc/content.as...PH&Title=416%20Rigby

Maybe norma made a typo ?
I justed copied it from normas webpage.

quote:

pretty sure that the energy (momentum) increases by the square of the velocity

Energy and momentum are NOT the same thing. Momentum is (=) MV, kinetic energy (=) 1/2 MV**2
I am not sure how they got those numbers. For momentum it should be M (grains) x velocity (fps)/ 7000 (to convert grains to pounds). However, my calculator gives different numbers! I am wondering why they quote a 450 grain bullet as I thought that both calibers (I own both) use a 400 grain bullet. Others can weigh in, but, evn though I own a 500/416 I do not regard it as a "stopper" ie. not in the same league as a 450x 3 1/4 or a 470.
Peter.

If I was a PH I would use a .458 bore as a minimum.

However, as a client, I would have no problem using a 450/400 0r a 500/416 double,as my primary rifle, on lion, cape buff, or elephant.

I have done so with perfect results.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
a 500/416 I do not regard it as a "stopper" ie. not in the same league as a 450x 3 1/4 or a 470.
Peter.

X2 (three if you count Buzz Charlton, who uses a 416 and I've neen told is moving to, or trying to move to, to a 450NE 3 1/4".) I think "stopping rifle" or "stopper" when used in reference to African hunting refers to elephants, and always has.

JPK

My intentions for stopper were in reference to elephants. Buzz Charlton, as JPK pointed out, was one of the PH's I had in mind when I posted this.

Guys,

If my memory so early in the morning is correct, Tony Sanchez Arino used a 416, Harry Selby used a 416, and a couple of others that are known,

I thinl that makes the 416 good enough

quote:

Originally posted by Sevens:
My intentions for stopper were in reference to elephants. Buzz Charlton, as JPK pointed out, was one of the PH's I had in mind when I posted this.

Sevens,

If you have a copy of Buzz' first DVD, "Hunting the African Elephant", (which if you don't you should get, its a great DVD,) watch it and for fun count how many times recires the refrain, "if the rifle had been shooting a 500gr bullet, this elephant would have dropped."

Or the close call charge where the cow is dropped, but not killed, a pace or two in front of the hunters, when Buzz says something like, "...thankfully, the hunter was using a rifle that shot a 500gr bullet..."

Kinda puts things into perspective, I think.

JPK

IMHO, That almost instant second shot is what puts it way ahead of the 416Rig for putting a stop on a charge.

quote:

Originally posted by Sevens:
If a PH is using this double rifle version of a 416 Rigby, why is it considered a stopper while the 416 Rigby (a bolt action) is not? The same could be asked of cartridges like the 450-400 NE.

I'm probably going to start something here, but I've found the general consensus to be that the 416 Rigby is a stopper. I don't think anybody has more experience on elephant than Richard Harland. And, to quote from his book Ndlovu:

quote:

Large Bore Calibres

This arbitrary grouping covers a broad spread of mathematical performances as measured by Muzzle Energy, a correlation of bullet weight and bullet velocity. From the .400 and .404 using 400gr bullets at around 2125fps (ME 4000ft.lbs), up to the .500s with 500gr-plus missiles at over 2100fps developing a hefty 5000-6800ft.lbs ME, the common denominator is their ability to deal with elephants under all conditions. (pp71)

George Hoffman came up with his 416 to meet his needs as a PH. Just enough bullet weight and diameter to be an effective stopper, and it also has the capability to take a distant shot to prevent wounded game from escaping. And from talking to other PHs, I've found them to generally hold that stopping rifles begin with 400 grain bullets and .40 caliber, and go up from there. Just as the .375H&H is considered the minimum legal caliber that can be used on the big 5, the .40s are considered to be the minimum caliber that can be called a stopper.

If you have Buzz's first CD, you'll also notice that the two guys who swear by doubles, Sten Cedergren and Ian Nyschens, both go out of their ways to note that the .416 Rigby is in a class by itself when it comes to magazine rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana1:
Half the people you know are below average

Depends on the crowd you run with.

quote:

Originally posted by csxcs:
NORMA AFRICAN PH

500/416 NE Full metal Jacket 450 gr BC: 0,325
Distance, yards 0 50 100 150 200
Velocity, fps 2100 1975 1855 1740 1630
Trajectory, inches -1,6 0,3 0 -2,8 -8,5
Energy, ft-lb 5583 4939 4356 3832 3364
Momentum, lb-f/s 171 161 155 142 133
________________________________________________

416 Rigby Full metal Jacket 450 gr
Distance, yards 0 50 100 150 200
Velocity, fps 2150 2037 1928 1823 1722
Trajectory, inches -1.6 0.3 0 -2.6 -7.8
Energy, ft-lb 4620 4148 3715 3321 2963
Momentum, lb-f/s 138 131 124 117 111

Norma's data or your typing must be off. Can't get more energy of of a slower velocity, even on Accurate Reloading!

quote:

Originally posted by China Fleet Sailor:

quote:

Originally posted by Sevens:
If a PH is using this double rifle version of a 416 Rigby, why is it considered a stopper while the 416 Rigby (a bolt action) is not? The same could be asked of cartridges like the 450-400 NE.

I'm probably going to start something here, but I've found the general consensus to be that the 416 Rigby is a stopper. I don't think anybody has more experience on elephant than Richard Harland. And, to quote from his book Ndlovu:

quote:

Large Bore Calibres

This arbitrary grouping covers a broad spread of mathematical performances as measured by Muzzle Energy, a correlation of bullet weight and bullet velocity. From the .400 and .404 using 400gr bullets at around 2125fps (ME 4000ft.lbs), up to the .500s with 500gr-plus missiles at over 2100fps developing a hefty 5000-6800ft.lbs ME, the common denominator is their ability to deal with elephants under all conditions. (pp71)

George Hoffman came up with his 416 to meet his needs as a PH. Just enough bullet weight and diameter to be an effective stopper, and it also has the capability to take a distant shot to prevent wounded game from escaping. And from talking to other PHs, I've found them to generally hold that stopping rifles begin with 400 grain bullets and .40 caliber, and go up from there. Just as the .375H&H is considered the minimum legal caliber that can be used on the big 5, the .40s are considered to be the minimum caliber that can be called a stopper.

If you have Buzz's first CD, you'll also notice that the two guys who swear by doubles, Sten Cedergren and Ian Nyschens, both go out of their ways to note that the .416 Rigby is in a class by itself when it comes to magazine rifles.

Stoppers are generally regarded as having 5000 ft-lbs of energy and a bullet of at least 400 grs. Taylor wrote of this 60 or 70 years ago and ain't nothing changed since. Except for the perpetual new crop of non-believers!

So Will, you think the 416 Rigby and 500/416 are stoppers?

This is from Boddington's new book:

PH recommendations for all thick skinned game in any cirumstance:

Caliber..................................# Respondents

.470NE ............................... 20
.416 Rem., Rigby, Wby........ 16
.458 Lott ............................14
.458 Win Mag ......................10
.375 H&H, Wby, Ruger..........10
.500 Jeffrey...........................8
.500-3" NE...........................8
.450 3 1/4" NE ...................5
.505 Gibbs ........................ 4
.450 Dakota ........................2
.475 #2 J ............................1
.450 Rigby.............................1
.450 Ackely .........................1
.450 #2 ..............................1
.425 WR ..............................1

..."

Medium bores, ( 375's, like Saeed's) = 10
Large medium bores, (408-425) = 17

Big bores, (.458" plus) = 75

I think the 3 to 1 ration is an accurate reflection of the general concensus, then and now. I think the 416 and 450gr bullets might prove a stopper.

JPK

The 450 gr. bullet wouldn't hurt anything in a 416 bore! It should give more penetration, in theory, than a 450 gr. 458 bullet. But the rule still rules, 5000 ft-lb and 400 grs. What Taylor's K.O. value boils down to is momentum so his numbers are as good as any, as long as the velocity is high enough to give penetration for the killing shot.

It was Taylor's point that momentum kills but it is also the knockdown & stopper number everyone desires. Because most in Boddington's survey are shooting 470's, and believe that it is the minimum stopper, doesn't mean it is the best stopper by any means. Obviously the bigger guns with the higher bullet momentums are "Better" stoppers though not necessarily better killers, for unless the bullet velocity is high enough the penetration is poor. Of course, high momentums and high velocities yield horrendous recoils, so pick your poison.

There ain't no STOPPERS. Some just slow's 'em down more'n others.

Rich Elliott

Absolutely nobody alive has shot statistically significant numbers of elephants with multiple calibers to really establish for sure what is best. A great deal of anecdotal evidence suggests that 416s work very well. How much better a bigger gun is mostly conjecture.

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
Absolutely nobody alive has shot statistically significant numbers of elephants with multiple calibers to really establish for sure what is best. A great deal of anecdotal evidence suggests that 416s work very well. How much better a bigger gun is mostly conjecture.

IMHO Mikelravy is correct except for the part on conjecture. I think there is enough evidence based on field experience to stongly support the theory that assuming enough velocity to provide adequate penetration, the heavier the bullet the greater the chance of stopping a determined elephant charge. What hasn't been accurately measured is how much more. Although stopping power formulas such as Taylors make an attempt we don't know how much they relate to reality. So we are left with what we will as an individual accept as a reasonable level of chance of stopping the charge. Obviousl that varies by poster.

465H&H

I agree with 465H&H, but think the question is put backward. I'd put it, "Where does stopping probability (however that might be defined) begin to drop precipitously?" Probably because I think it does, and does so dramatically at around 4500ft/lbs and 450grs.

I think the brink of the drop off defines the beginning of stopping cartidges. And while no one man has enough experience with enough cartridges to draw that valid conclussion, I think, in aggregate, there is enough experiences with different cartridges to draw the conclusion. Obviously, I think historical consensus has stopping rifles beginning at 450NE performance.

I don't believe that there is any historical support for the 416's being considered stoppers, but recall that there weren't many 416's in use until pretty recently. Not many 416's were made by Rigby or others, and few, say, 416 Taylors, etc. The 416's really began life with Federal's loading the Rigby and Remington's bringing out their version. Is the jury still out? Maybe, I don't think so with 400gr bullets, maybe with 450's.

JPK

There are tons of historical support for .416's as stoppers. In fact, many preferred the .416.

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
There are tons of historical support for .416's as stoppers. In fact, many preferred the .416.

There were very few 416's used in Africa until very recently. That is because there were very few 416's made until recently. Once Federal reintroduced 416 Rigbt ammo and Remington introduced there version, the 416 market bloomed. But not until then.

JPK

But the 416 Rigby was not nonexistent. Taylor wrote of it and Harry Selby obviously. There were others that used for elephant control their whole careers. Sanchez wrote of it fondly for years even after he discovered the 500 Jeffery.

Just like the old time 416 owners, everything gets biased by what the present day hunter is using or hopes is a stopper.

A stopper is just what Taylor talked about with a few variations, i.e., one that can knockout an elephant but also included is the ability to turn an elephant in a charge assuming the bullet causes enough physical damage.

Jillions of experiences point to the credibility of a minimum of 5000 ft-lb and 400 grs. Though this is perpetually questioned here on AR it doesn't change a damn thing.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

I think there is enough evidence based on field experience to stongly support the theory that assuming enough velocity to provide adequate penetration, the heavier the bullet the greater the chance of stopping a determined elephant charge.

465 H&H:

Assuming good quality bullets, wouldn't you be inclined to get MORE penetration with the .500/.416 on elephant and more bullet "shock" on the cats because of its' higher velocity than say a .450, .470 or even a .500 NE? Maybe the newer .500/.416 is the perfect "stopping" rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

I think there is enough evidence based on field experience to stongly support the theory that assuming enough velocity to provide adequate penetration, the heavier the bullet the greater the chance of stopping a determined elephant charge.

465 H&H:

Assuming good quality bullets, wouldn't you be inclined to get MORE penetration with the .500/.416 on elephant and more bullet "shock" on the cats because of its' higher velocity than say a .450, .470 or even a .500 NE? Maybe the newer .500/.416 is the perfect "stopping" rifle.

Dave1

What you say is true. Forgive me but since I am primarily an elephant hunter and only hunt the other DG species incidently to my elephant hunting, I always think in terms of the best cartridge is the one that gives me the best chance of stopping a determined elephant charge if I miss the brain (as will happen maybe 50% of the time even for the best shot). The 416 caibers equal to the Rigby are stoppers in my opinion on elephant but not as sure a stopper as the larger calibers flinging bullets of 480-500 grains at over 2,100 fps. On lion Taylor rated the 416 Rigby as a better stopper than the 450 + calibers and since I have never shot a lion I will bow to his experience. Ganyana feels that a velocity of 2,350 fps or there abouts is necessary to get the shock needed on lion and this is difficult to use due to excessive recoil with 450 and above cartridges. While the 416s may give more penetration the 450 and above give all you need on elephant if velocity exceeds 2,100 fps or so. So there is no advantage on elephant for giving up stopping power for unneeded penetration.

Therefore for elephant the better stoppers are the bigger bores and for lion the 416s IMO.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Therefore for elephant the better stoppers are the bigger bores and for lion the 416s IMO.

465H&H

You can only really have one rifle in your hands at any given moment. That rifle may have to deal with something you'd prefer to handle with another.

I just put down "Nyati" after reading that the minimum that can be recommended for someone hunting buffalo alone is the .404 or .416. I think that sums it up nicely. It seems to me that the prudent hunter would at least want to have a rifle that would enable him or her to deal with a situation on their own, even if they were planning to hunt with someone else.

Obviously, if someone knew ahead of time that the problem of the day would be an elephant, well then a larger double would be more comforting to have in your hands. If elephant's the only thing you intend to hunt then I wouldn't expect you to bother with a .416.

I think the question has to do with whether or not the .416 just makes the cut for consideration as a stopping rifle. I'd say the weight of the evidence says yes. It just barely does. If you also are interested in hunting something besides elephant, while wanting to know you've got a rifle capable of dealing with an elephant should the need arrive, I think the .416 might be worthy of your consideration.

On the other hand, as much of a .416 Rigby fan that I am I'm not going to try and convince you it's the be-all and end-all of stopping rifles. It just happens to be the ground floor. It will do, even if it isn't the optimal choice under all circumstances. Nothing is, because you don't necessarily know ahead of time what the circumstances are going to be.

A .416 would be a much better stopper in my hands than a .577. I know I can place a shot well with a .416, with a .577, not so sure. I think my Rigby is about as far as I can go, of course a .458 WM doesn't have any more recoil IMO.