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Alf, I indeed own such a rifle. It is a C&H rifle built on a P-14 action. I read the A square manual just after buying the gun and slugged the barrel. Indeed it was .419 grooves and .411 lands as best I can measure. It is a nice gun but loading for it is a bit of a worry. Not many bullet makers do a .419. It has the London proof markings. It says Coggswell and Harrison, London on the barrel and right now can't tell you if it says anything else. I will get into the safe in a bit and let you know about any other markings. Calling C&H they said use any kind of 404 ammo in it. I am not planning to do that. I have fired some Woodleigh bullets in it as most everybody I talked to said they had a soft jacket. The rifle didn't like them. Shot patterns rather than groups. I have some GS Custom bullets that are .418 and have found a machinist with a CNC machine that has made me some solids in .419/411 configuration and they shoot about 2 inches at a hundred with open sights. Not bad for my aging eyes. I now have another .404 that is a .423 regular barel rifle. I have considered the difficulty of loading for two 404's with different barrel sizes. Can I keep the loadings straight or more importantly, will someone of my descendents get the wrong bullet in the wrong barrel? I am struggling with whether to keep it as is, sell the .419 to a collector as it is indeed a collectors item(original everything, no scope drilling holes) or rebarrel it to .423 and then use any load I want in either gun. Sorry for rambling so but that is where it is. "D"

If you order a 404 barrel from Lothar Walthar then you must specify .419 or .423 as there is a European version of the .404 that specs .419 according to Woody at LW...and many Europeans order the .419 barrel...

I have seen two .419 barrels, one was a Cogswell and Harrison and the other if I recall was a German Guild gun by Otto ?, sorry about that but I am sure you know Otto!

I may still have that old guild gun barrel out in the scrape pile, I will look and see and if I can find it I will send it to you if you wish, then again I may have used it for a tent stake.

Alf,

I have been researching the .404 Jeff as well, but concentrating on the status of the cartridge in the last 10 years. (My working article title is "Who killed the .404?".)

The drawings I have are of chamber reamers being used now. I have encountered references to .418", .419", .421" and .423" barrels along my way. I also read the Craig Boddington article in the A-Square reloading manual.

I don't have any barrels, but based on what I have encountered I expect you will find some .419"s.

Good luck with Man/Magnum, they have reported the barrel of the .404 J to be two different diameters in articles in the last year alone.

jim

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Mine definitely has proof marks from the proofing house. I don't know much more about the diameters that were tested at the proofing house. I did talk by phone to C&H and they said go ahead and use any factory ammo in it. I just can't get comfortable with it. It has a 1 in 14 twist. I worked too hard and long today and forgot to check what was on the barrel. Alf I will try to get it done tomorrow but the schedule looks like a marathon. Thanks for the interest. Didn't get a PM yet. Good hunting. "D'

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ALF,
Norma also made cases for Parker Hale, the last time on 20th of March 1964!
These cartridges had the headstamp "Parker Hale .404".
The bullet was Normas own 400grain Steel Jacketed FMJ.

Husky

I've had two .404's, and sure wish now I had slugged the barrels. the first was a C&H and like the one mentioned above was on a P14 action. The other was a Parker Hale on a mauser 98. I shot the very hot RWS factory loads and handloads at 2400 fps with the old original barnes bullets in both with no problems.
Really, as long as there is ample neck clearance for the bullet to be released I doubt there would be a problem with the bigger bullets in the smaller bore. The only thing I would worry about would be a load that is right on the edge of to much pressure anyway, a poor/weak action, and I dont know about monolithic solids?

For what its worth, I have slugged the barrel on perhaps 4, maybe 5, 10.75x68s and they all went .422 to .423..

With the advent of Horneber brass, I may build me a 10.75x68..I really like that caliber with a 350 gr. bullet at 2350 FPS, nice to shoot and certainly a killer with BarnesX or GS Custom bullets...

At any rate you should contact Woody at Lothar Walther, he might enlighten you somewhat as they sell 404 barrels in both .419 and 423, which tells me they get inquiries for both....

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Alf,

Please note that there is no SAAMI standard for the .404 Jeffery, hence the cartridge is actually a wildcat here in the USA. Custom makers are free to do their own thing, and they have.

Your squeeze bore "Eureka!" is indeed interesting; I don't recall another deliberate high velocity squeeze bore until German research of the 30s, but there may have been a steady stream of such. The Brits with Cordite and Axite were definitely the "spaghetti guys" while the Germans were "flakes" (physical descriptions of the powders not the people).

jim

I was reading this thread yesterday and got curious, since I too have a Cogswell & Harrison .404.

The rifle has a distinctly post-war "American" look to the stock, and it is original, being stamped with the rifle's serial number (700xx) in the barrel channel. The rifle is built on a standard '98 Mauser action and it was probably from a military rifle. I've owned it since 1970.

So...having more-or-less identified the age of the rifle, it is interesting that slugging the barrel last night gave me a measurement of .418"! I've fired many hundreds of heavily-loaded 400-grain Barnes Originals and X-Bullets down this barrel (all nominally .423") as well as the VERY heavy-jacketed Kynoch steel solids and softpoint factory loads. Lately, my cast bullets have been sized at .424" and ALL of the bullets mentioned performed just fine along with excellent case life and accuracy. Even at .424", there's enough neck clearance in the chamber for easy bullet release. I will be trying some different diameters now, I can assure y'all!

I'd say that there's no myth at all in the C & H .419"-.404, based on what's been said here and also what I discovered in my own rifle.

Alf barrel markings are as follows. On the left side of the barrel are a crown over a V, a crown over a P, upside down 404 and another small number I think it is a 28. On the left side of the reciever is a crown with a symbol that looks like a hammer and another that I can't make out with a NP under it. It is my assumption that these are proofing marks. On the right side of the barrel is a serial # 64XXX. From these numbers can you tell me when this gun was manufactured? On top of the barrel are the words Cogswell&Harrison Ltd. London 168 Piccadilly. I hope that helps. "D"

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Zero freebore, just a leade of 0.300"? The original .416 Rigby chamber specs were for a throat of zero freebore and 0.300" leade also.

Thanks for the interesting posts, Alf et al. One learns something new most times when making the rounds here.

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I just got a 404 orig. Type A Mauser is it safe to shoot the new Kynoch ammo through it? Would this be bored 423 or 419? Supposedly this gun was made in 1926/27!

Any idea of what ammo this gun would be regulated with i.e. the orig load at 2150 fps or the newwer 2300 fps.

Any info. is welcome and appreciated.

Thanks.

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JOhan,
I have no clue as to what your talking about with reference to cordite..

All I know is that Lothar Walther sells 404 barrels in .419 referred to as European barrels and in .423 referred to as US barrels according to Woody at Lothar Walther..Take it up with him, I'm no expert on past 404s...Not even interrested in a .419 barrel...but apparantly there is some interrest in .419 barrels or they wouldn't offer them...I see no use what so ever for a .419 bore today, not even for rebarreling an old 404 that had a .419 barrel, as rebarreling would ruin its collector value, so you may as well put on a proper .423 and make a shooter out of it.....

I think it would be easy to pull the barrel from the original rifle, keep it safe, replace it with a .423 barrel and new sight package to the original factory contour and call it good forever. You have all the original goodies and no loss of value. Kind of like having a fine custom stock and a using stock of lessor wood or fiberglass. Ray did you slug the Hoffman and what was the bore diameter?

O.K., so I have a Parker-Hale .404. I figured that since it is of post-war vintage, it ought to have a .423 barrel. Am I deluding myself? It sure shoots hot Woodleighs like it cut its teeth on them but I am concerned with the NF loads I want to work up. Any help?

My 404 is a pre-war (1924) commercial Oberndorf. Proof marks are a V with crown and a backwards 3. I just slugged it and it measures .412/.419. Never had a problem shooting Barnes Kynoch .423's from it at all. Groups about 1.25" @ 100m and about .75" at 50m, but will only go three shots before stringing high right. I gotta let it cool way down. Have to look into finding some .418 bullets now.

I kind of hit it big today. I visited my wholesalers and found a few jems. Two boxes of 350 gr X bullets for 404 Jeffery at 35.00 a box. Three boxes of African Grand Slam tungston solids in 416 and 458 at $65.00 a box. They said the last price they had for the Solids was $125.00 for 25. Is that crazy!! These had been in inventory so long that they just wanted to get rid of them.