Dear all,

just watched some "safari" videos on youtube. What struck me is that "European" hunters seem to strive to get as close as possible (and then 10 steps closer) to game, whereas "Americans" seem to be totally happy with shooting game at a couple of hundred yards.

Now maybe I am very old-fashioned, but I would rather return empty-handed, if I could not get close enough to old (!) bulls than shooting it at long range.

what is you view? Is it a statistical error based on the fact that only a certain type of hunters posts on youtube? Or am I just prejudiced?

Looking forward to your replies,

McStern

I suppose to each his own. I dont see anything wrong with either as long as the animal is taken cleanly.

quote:

Originally posted by lal:
I suppose to each his own. I dont see anything wrong with either as long as the animal is taken cleanly.

Quite right. Whilst close is a good option it sometimes does not happen that way.

I have been in situations whereas we have been but a few paces from Buff but the bull only presented a further shot.

To go home without your trophy for the sake of a few yards is extravagant.

It seems most hunters are actually shooters who buy every product not the market for higher success. Long range scopes, super magnums, ugly but long shooting rifles, barrel vibration reducers, sent blockers, countless camo patterns, range finders, electronic calls, canned hunting, shooting from a blind or vehicle, guaranteed animals, guaranteed trophy sizes, some buy taxidermy to hang on their walls, and now web cam shooting and bringing shooting benches to the field, sighting in a rifle with a Lead Sled to avoid recoil, and the list goes on.

I hunt with doubles, one of which has a low power scope, all the rest are open sights. My trophy wall is small compared to the number of times I've been to Africa. There is a difference between hunting and assassination. That all said, it's my opinion and what others do is legal. It's not just my cup of tea.
Cal

I always try to get as close as possible
Rarely shoot anything past 150 yards
I believe that's where difference lies between hunters and shooters/ collectors
In Africa I got the raised eyebrows when I said lets go hunting and not to worry if I don' t get anything.
I came here to have fun hunting
I truly wasn' t worried and had to calm PH's down after few days and no shots
But then again, that's just me
I believe, long range would rob me of some great experience

Different tactics for different situations. It is rather difficult to sneak up on game in the middle of a winter wheat field, so there may be a time and place for long shots.

Agreed

I really think it depends of the habitat you are hunting in regards to what "long range" constitutes. In South Dakota, USA, where I live, 200 yards is not a long shot. The flat plains in my area often dictate no opportunity to get any closer. And honestly, two hundred yards, WITH a good rest should be a very easy shot to make.

On my second trip to the EC of the RSA, I document the range of each of the 18 animals I took. The AVERAGE range was 207 yards (my PH had a pair of Leica binoculars with a built in rangefinder where we ranged the shot before or after it occured). The longest was 365 yards which was taken prone with a bipod on a windless day.

In contrast, I was in Zimbabwe last summer where a long shot would be no more than a hundred yards due to the heavy cover.

Do I prefer long shots--absolutely not. Will I take a long shot if conditions are correct--absolutely.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
It seems most hunters are actually shooters who buy every product not the market for higher success. Long range scopes, super magnums, ugly but long shooting rifles, barrel vibration reducers, sent blockers, countless camo patterns, range finders, electronic calls, canned hunting, shooting from a blind or vehicle, guaranteed animals, guaranteed trophy sizes, some buy taxidermy to hang on their walls, and now web cam shooting and bringing shooting benches to the field, sighting in a rifle with a Lead Sled to avoid recoil, and the list goes on.

I hunt with doubles, one of which has a low power scope, all the rest are open sights. My trophy wall is small compared to the number of times I've been to Africa. There is a difference between hunting and assassination. That all said, it's my opinion and what others do is legal. It's not just my cup of tea.
Cal

As long as it is legal I have no problem with how others hunt. That being said, Like Cal said some of the things he mentions are not my cup of tea either.

What I believe is, the guys who shoot so-called dangerous game at long range are simply cheating themselves out of the reason we hunt dangerous game. The unwounded Cape buffalo shot at over 75 yds becomes nothing more than wall hanger to decorate ones wall that is no more dangerous than a whitetail deer.

If that is what others want and it is legal I say they should hunt the way they want, but it just seems a bit like shooting at targets rather than hunting.

Now with wild sheep and goats the work needed to get within a those very long range shots, "IS" hunting IMO, and makes that mount on the wall mean something.

Of course this is simply my opinion and not something anyone else is required to live by!

......................................................................

We have gone through this so many times and I have taken DG from a couple of inches to +100meters. Does not matter to me and I'm european . I wish I could have done a shot at 450 meters on my last trip but sorry to say I'm to bad at shooting at those distances.

Try to get as close as you can and then make the shot.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
It seems most hunters are actually shooters who buy every product not the market for higher success. Long range scopes, super magnums, ugly but long shooting rifles, barrel vibration reducers, sent blockers, countless camo patterns, range finders, electronic calls, canned hunting, shooting from a blind or vehicle, guaranteed animals, guaranteed trophy sizes, some buy taxidermy to hang on their walls, and now web cam shooting and bringing shooting benches to the field, sighting in a rifle with a Lead Sled to avoid recoil, and the list goes on.

I hunt with doubles, one of which has a low power scope, all the rest are open sights. My trophy wall is small compared to the number of times I've been to Africa. There is a difference between hunting and assassination. That all said, it's my opinion and what others do is legal. It's not just my cup of tea.
Cal

You forgot to include folks who purchase mega-magnums and then have muzzle brakes installed.

For buffalo hunting,I like getting close with an iron sighted double. In the 6 hunts I have taken, I could have harvested a larger buffalo sooner in the safari with my scoped .375 H&H, and I would have missed 75% of "the hunt" in doing so.

I have worn eyeglasses since I was 4 years old and have worn tri-focals for more years than I care to count. When you have vision that is this bad you use a scope at every opportunity. I have rarely taken a shot over 200 yards ,not because I couldn't hit but two other reasons. One I probably couldn't see the game and two I am probably the worst judge of distance around. I know where my rifle will hit at 300yards within 1" the only problem is I don't know what 300 yards distance looks like. I would imagine I'm more the norm than the exception. WE all can't be eagle eyes like Cal Pappas and use double rifles with Iron sights some of us like to hunt too much to be restricted in this equipment and physical shape. So I just restricted myself to those shots I felt sure of and had fun. Which meant bolt rifles and scopes,the higher power the better. I even carried 10x56 Swarovskis as my standard binoculars though they were heavy. With them I could actually see. My last scope (on a 257Robts) is a Zeiss Diavari Z 3-12x56 MC that is really nice.My 1-5 Vari-X 3's on my heavy rifles (375's and 416Rigby) are all set at 5x and were used that way. One of my 375's has a 3-9 on it and last time I looked it was set at 9x. It helps to see.

I think the area & terrain dictate how far or near one must shoot while hunting.
If I can get close, I will, if I can't, I'll adjust for elevation & windage.
Where I hunt is timber company land with pipelines & powerline right of ways running through it, also for safety reasons they will not allow still hunting, so we do what we have to do, beats playing golf.

and don't forget:

Dang! Sorry I missed the start - was at the concessions stand ...

The pleasure is in the struggle

While I'm a pretty proficient shot at longer ranges, I prefer to stalk as close as I possibly can. Of the six gemsbok I have shot in Namibia, the most exciting hunt was a half mile stalk from the top of a kopjie to a 41" gemsbok that we spotted. The last couple of hundred yards were on hands and knees on tiny pebbles the size of BB's. We got to within 80 yards and ran out of cover so I shot. This June, when I go back again, I'm bringing knee pads!

In my mind, the Stalk is where it's at! The closer I can get, the greater the experience. Shooting close is just damn exciting.
That being said, I have no problem launching 500 yards with the right gear and circumstances. I tend to take what I am given.

T here are a lot of ways one can classify hunting - non is necessarily right or wrong.

Take a bow hunter.

He is forced by his choice of equipment to get close to his animals.

He is unable to hunt at any distances that rifle hunters are able to.

He accepts that, as it was his choice.


Those who use open sighted rifles have similar disadvantages, and again, they do accept it as their choice.

Those who chose to use a rifle with a scope, are at a much less of an advantage, as the only limitation to them are are the gun they use and their own limitations.

Among all the above, there are those who really should never even GO hunting, as they are incapable of killing anything at any distance.

Bottom line is, if it takes your fancy, and it is legal, do it.

And don't pay a hoot to what anyone else says.

Just enjoy YOUR hunt

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

And don't pay a hoot to what anyone else says.

Just enjoy YOUR hunt

This is the real truth of it all.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

I hunt with doubles, one of which has a low power scope, all the rest are open sights.
... There is a difference between hunting and assassination.

IF only ancient primitive man who used to throw (or thrust) spears when hunting large dangerous game,
could see you kill with the ease and convenience of your modern SxS rifles.

Someone who can brain their elephant at 20 or 40yds with a modern open-sight centrefire, is 'sniping' in comparison
To knuckle draggers from long ago who were required to get 'really really close' to thrust spears into wooly Mammoth.

Just another thought to go along with Saeed's comment.

This one is from Mac's response.

quote:

As long as it is legal I have no problem with how others hunt.

If hunting is going to remain viable into the next century, Hunters as a group are simply going to have to quit finding lines of division.

As long as the methods ANY of us choose to use are LEGAL, that is all ANY of us should be concerned with.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
the guys who shoot so-called dangerous game at long range are simply cheating themselves out of the reason we hunt dangerous game.

Such broad assumption is silly, since Not all people hunt dangerous game for the same reasons.

Some purposely chase the 'risk& danger' but will then use larger Bores to supposedly reduce the risk&danger... thus contradicting themselves.

then People like Saeed just hunt CapeBuffalo for pleasure, and very effectively with a medium bore at varying distances.

quote:

IF only ancient primitive man who used to throw (or thrust) spears when hunting large dangerous game,
could see you kill with the ease and convenience of your modern SxS rifles.

Very true, Mr. Trax.
Cal

I work for a gunsmith. We get asked "What do I need if I have a 1000 yard shot?" I say, "a better PH."

Been to Africa twice, used a scope. The next time I want to use iron sight for at least some hunting. I bought a pre 64 Winchester in 300 H&H for the hunt and a Remington in 270 to practice with. I have a dream of a Zebra.......

It is the hunt that is important and doing it to meet your dream

Mark

From a PH's perspective its always great to have a client that wants to get up close and personal. That said, I have had hunters from Europe and US that have displayed exceptional shooting skills at longer ranges.

I think that as hunters we have only one goal, that is to secure a quick death for the animal we hunt.

Beyond that each to his own and I think we should rather enjoy the fact that each hunter is after his "own authentic experience" and that it does not necessarily have to be to your approval.

Get out and enjoy your hunt, forget about the haters, and savor the journey, the hunt and the kill; as the thrill brought by each stage of your hunting experience belongs to you and you alone.

Good hunting to you all for 2015 and I look forward to reading the reports.

I always get a kick out of those mentioning "dangerous" game as if one is dire danger when hunting them.

If one really wants to experience danger while hunting dangerous game, use a knife to kill them.

Or better still, wrestle them to death

I feel more in danger driving in city roads than I have ever felt being in danger with an elephant 5 yards away from me.

The biggest and most important variable is the ability of the shooter.

I've seen clients who are perfectly capable and confident of taking shots to 600 metres and beyond and I've seen others who weren't confident or capable of taking a shot beyond 100 metres and a few who couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo.

The very worst I've seen was a Polish guy who's eyes were so bad he literally had to hold the indemnity touching his nose to read it. He arrived with a .404 Jeffery and I lent my rifle of the same calibre to the PH who was hunting him and both had a very enjoyable safari.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I always get a kick out of those mentioning "dangerous" game as if one is dire danger when hunting them.

If one really wants to experience danger while hunting dangerous game, use a knife to kill them.

Or better still, wrestle them to death

I feel more in danger driving in city roads than I have ever felt being in danger with an elephant 5 yards away from me.

Sounds like you need to go hunt with Andrew.

quote:

Originally posted by McStern:
Dear all,

just watched some "safari" videos on youtube. What struck me is that "European" hunters seem to strive to get as close as possible (and then 10 steps closer) to game, whereas "Americans" seem to be totally happy with shooting game at a couple of hundred yards.

Now maybe I am very old-fashioned, but I would rather return empty-handed, if I could not get close enough to old (!) bulls than shooting it at long range.

what is you view? Is it a statistical error based on the fact that only a certain type of hunters posts on youtube? Or am I just prejudiced?

Looking forward to your replies,

McStern

I don't know what videos you are watching but seems a bit of a generalization. I watched a video where a European took 15 pot shots at a ibex 400 yards away but didn't think "wow, all Europeans can't shoot."

I shot my animals as close I could while hunting with Andrew in Zambia. I passed buffalo at literally 10 yards to take a 130 yard shot after a really really long couple days of stalking. It was great and I cleary remember Andrew saying "stop f'ing about with the scope and shoot." LOL How many international hunts have you done where you returned empty handed because you passed a 150 yard shot trying to get a 50 yard shot?

Mind your own business. Words to live by.

Big tits or small tits, red heads or blonds, Ford or Chevy, beans in your chile or no beans, Harley or Hayabusa. If it is legal and it turns you on then it's none of my business. And unless you are paying the bill I don't want to hear your opinion about my hunt.


My preference on plains game with a scoped rifle is to get as close as practical and within my known shooting abilities. That can be very close or out to 300 yards.

For elephant it's a big double with open sights and closer than 25 paces.

If I remember correctly, at one time in the past on a discussion concerning this same basic issue,

quote:

Hunters versus Shooters

Saeed stated quite accurately, in the end game, we are ALL Shooters.

We are subject to the morality codes of the society we live in! Whether we want to or not our lives are subjected to this. It forms he very basis of what every law abiding society aspires to.

As such the act of hunting in its present form is governed by a code of ethics as determined by our morality.

So whilst we may proclaim another has no right to determine what we do in the hunting field fact is that we as members of society knowing or unknowing participate under that code of conduct. The very fact that hunting is "regulated" is confirmation of this.

Now whilst there is no law prohibiting the shooting of an animal over distance ie no crime is committed when doing so popular opinion within society as a whole may stand in judgement of that action and deem it "unethical" whether we agree or not...... and in this lies the danger.

That opinion may ultimately lead to legislation by popular consensus.

That is incidentally exactly how most of the hunting laws in Africa that we now have to live by came about. Not by those who were anti hunting but from within the ranks those who wished to preserve hunting for the future.

It was the industry who set the moral code !

quote:

I hunt with doubles, one of which has a low power scope, all the rest are open sights. My trophy wall is small compared to the number of times I've been to Africa. There is a difference between hunting and assassination. That all said, it's my opinion and what others do is legal. It's not just my cup of tea.
Cal

Absolutely Cal and that is how you want to hunt but you will never experience the hunting of hard to gets like Sitatunga, Sheep and Ibex which inhabit wondrous and exotic country. Tough hunts that require you to throw a much reduced amount of lead over a greater distance.

quote:

That is incidentally exactly how most of the hunting laws in Africa that we now have to live by came about. Not by those who were anti hunting but from within the ranks those who wished to preserve hunting for the future.

While this discussion is taking place in the African Hunting topic area, World Wide, ethical concepts played a role in the establishment of legislated hunting regulations.

The base concept about discussions such as this or those concerning Shooting From A Vehicle/Shooting Over-Near A Water Source/Shooting Animals Inside A High Fence etc. etc. etc. lie within the concepts of Personal Ethics versus Legally Sanctioned Methods.

Not to make lite of anything but it boils down to nothing more than two schools/ideologies concerning religion. I believe in God/You believe in God, But MY manner of belief is Better than Your manner of belief.

Legislated hunting methods provide or is supposed to provide ALL of us with a level playing field.

Personal/Individual ETHICS are a literal minefield, simply due to our Personal/Individual beliefs concerning how we view hunting and now it should be undertaken/conducted.

I have told this before

I had a client book me for 6 weeks of baboon shooting. In most areas baboon are totally free but in some a charge of $10 each is applied. I put together a trip including all the main border posts where baboon are a real pain and got free permission from Parks/police and CIO to shoot as many as we safely could at Biet Bridge, chirundu, victoria falls, kariba, etc.

Client pre shipped 5000 rounds.

to put it mildly we did not get along. Our first port of call had been Vic falls and he had taken some 600 baboon at ranges of 200-500m (I was working the rangefinder. At halway house stopped for lunch on our way down to Biet Bridge when a Young PH drove in. I had paszsed him on his proficiency only a month or so earlier and his licence was actauly probably less than a week old. 'what are you doing for the next five weeks' I asked. "Nothing" he said- 'as you had told us all, getting your license is one thing, proving your good enough to get hired by a reputable outfit is another'. " do you mind working over Christmas?" 'No problem, just broken up with the gitrlfriend.' "werll this gent has 5 weeks to go on a hunt booked with me and I think neither of us would like to see other in the morning- whydon't you to go off and have a beer and see if you can get along while I enjoy my chiken and chips without him" the they wandered off and half a hour later "C" and the American came back and said- yes they would be happy to hunt ogether but how much 'extra' did I want since I had done all the ground work.

I pulled out the itinery, which farms in the vumba we were invited to, the hotel bookings etc. "I am holding enough of his deposit to cover what I have laid out as deposits on the hotels and nearly enough to cover the first week of hunting we and we both did some quick maths. I reconed he owed me $175, and he gave me $300 'for the work put in if not for your company' and we parted.

Later I ran into C and asked how it had gone. Great except they had run out of ammo.

fast forward 10 years and I was at cleaveland shooting cub in Harare mid week and the American and 'C' were there (we had actually run into each other severl times in the interviening years). The american ws checking the scopes on his two rifles- identical custom built .338-378. " Those Are not going to last you 5000 rounds I said ater the Americaan stopped shooting and a runner was comming back from the 500m butts (Shilouette range) with the target. ' Your right' said the America (we had always remained civil with each other) but I pre-shipped 8000 rounds at 8 spare barrels.' C said ' this years goal is nothing under 500m and preferably nothing under 800m'

It is now 14 years and that American has come back every Christmas for 6 weeks and shot baboons. Not my taste, but he has made an art out of it. Much as I disliked him (and he frequents AR) he has been ethical as possible about it. A wounded animal he paid for , even when they were free- wounding was not acceptable to him and by by 'C' that extra 'fine' helped him to stay focused and wounded din't count in his 'scorebook' even if the animal died later

As techology has increased so has his ranges. This year he had a Barret .50BMG and a cusom rifle with quich change barels in .300 and .338 Norma (smae magazine box, same headspace guages). The custom Norma chmbered rifle wore a Swarovski auto rangefinder trjectory compensator scope and the Barret one that was suposed to work out the wind as well.

He has made an art out of it, and I see nothing wrong with that. I try not to shoot anything over 50m, but if you are tropy hunting, you cannot hold to that and I would be lying if I pretended to have never told a client to take a shot at 300m if I thought he could do it and the trophy was what he was looking for.

Dear all

many thanks for your answers!

your answers were exceptionally good. Having read them, I have concluded for myself that indeed it is a question of ethics. I want to be able to shoot so well that my quarry is killed reliably with the first shot and quickly. If an animal is wounded, I want to be able to spoor the animal, i.e. find the place where I hit it and then follow. At long distances especially the latter should be very hard. Thereby extending (potentially) the time until I can dispatch the animal and stop its pain.

thanks again for all your answers!

McStern

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by lal:
I suppose to each his own. I dont see anything wrong with either as long as the animal is taken cleanly.

Quite right. Whilst close is a good option it sometimes does not happen that way.

I have been in situations whereas we have been but a few paces from Buff but the bull only presented a further shot.

To go home without your trophy for the sake of a few yards is extravagant.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:


and don't forget:

You are just pissed they do't let you hunt with your F-18 any longer...