The target below is a composit of six shots, 3 rights, 3 lefts, from my 470 double. Range = 25yds., velocity from 2050 to 2125 f.p.s. Woodleigh solids and North Fork Cup Point Solids. The tic marks on the axis are at 1in. intervals.

I'm going to hunt ele again with this rifle, tuskless in April (Dande south). I want to take a brain shot.

Question: Would you consider this accuracy acceptable or would you have the rifle re-regulated?

Brett

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That is fine. Perhaps you can slide the rear sight to the right just a tad, but I would not hesitate to hunt with it like that. You could also increase the powder charge a little in an attempt to bring the two groups closer together if you want.

Thanks Dan,

The groups seem to be opening up at higher speeds, strange.

What would you consider a minimum velocity?

Best regards;
Brett

What Dan said.

What Dan said again!

465H&H

You indicate 2 different bullets were used. If the single holes were one bullet and the double holes were the other I would use the singles. In any case I would drift the sight a little to center. That's a 2"x3" group and I would just go kill Elephants with it.

Groups look good to me. I'd certainly wade in to them with that.

Zim,

The were, NF-CPS 2083R 2053L.

Brett

What Dan said, yet again.

But that group is just itching to be improved, first with a sight drift and just a bit more velocity. I would have to work on that, it be killing me, its close to a really nice group (good enough already though.)

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Brett:
Zim,

The were, NF-CPS 2083R 2053L.

Brett

Brett,

I'm sure you know this but figured I should point out that North Fork cup points aren't elephant bullets, you need the flat nose solids for elephants.

JPK

Brett, I won't repeat what I think is sound advice already given.

I did hunt tuskless in Dande South in '05 with my 470 Evans and took a nice one. My PH was Ryan.

I would point out you can't ask for advice without tellling us what make of gun it is.

Its Hard to tell what you have not knowing what bullets hit were. What you have is good enough but if you have the time and are so inclined try a different powder. Try shooting a groups with just your main bullet which would be your solid. Then work up a load for your soft and try to get it to hit to the same point for both right and left barrels. You don't have to use the same load for both bullets. The softs may need just a little more powder than the solids.
Your goal is to get both loads to shoot to the same point of aim, they don't need to be the same though or even shoot at the same speed.

JD

JD

Brett, 2000 fps or above will be fine. And I would not re-regulate the rifle as it could come back not shooting that well.

25 yards is a long shot.

Good to go.

Andy

Thanks for all the replys!

JPK, I did think the cup points would work for ele heads, maybe I'm mistaken there.

Funny, the groups seem to move away from each other with increasing velocity. I was considering reducing it a bit.

I've tried H4831 and RL15 so far. RL15 is the better of the two. Any powder suggestions would be welcome.

The rifle is a William Douglas. I added a few pictures below, I've shown it here before...

Brett

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Great looking pictures, where are you located?

Brett

What was the temperature during your time at the range?

The reason I ask is that if you were shooting in colder weather, keep in mind you will probably be doing your actual shooting in warm to hot weather. The higher temps will result in increased velocities, and may throw your groups off.

Also, were you using the same powder charge for both the NorthForks and the Woodleighs? The reason I ask is that the driving band designs can usually take a little more powder without pressure increases, and often times need that to get the proper groups. Gerhard's GS custom website has some info on that subject.

Fianlly, were you using a filler with the RL 15, and do you crimp?

Brett,

No the cup points aren't intended for elephants. Mike Brady has specifically and sternly warned me against using them on elephants more than once.

I was planning to bring a few loaded cup points and try them on DEAD ele cows, but time got away from me and I didn't get them loaded before my last ele trip. After my last trip, Mike told me that a couple of eles have been brain shot with the cup points, but he sternly warned me again not to try them on live ele cows. I don't know the details of the successful shots, side or frontal either. (I was thinking that the penetration on cows would be fine and "knock down" effect much greater than the flat points or Woodleighs.) I would NEVER try these on a bull without a whole lot of them first going into dead cow and bull heads and bodies, and I'd try them on a dead cow or two before a live one.

If you need some flat points, I've got maybe 100, maybe 150, plus some cup points too, 50 maybe 100, for the 470. I have no need for them and you are welcome to them for costs plus shipping, flat points, cup points , any number or combination or all.

Luckily I've got a couple hundred flat points and maybe 100 cup points for my double. which is .458", and that should last me awhile.

For your rifle, if you aren't getting the barrels shooting closer together with more velocity, which they "should" be doing, you might want to try a different powder. I ran into a similar situation with my rifle with a powder and needed to change powders to get movement.

Shoot me a PM if you want the bullets.

JPK

470, I'm in San Diego.

Jim, The temp was 71F (in our local desert). Powder charges were different for each set of 2 shots. NF did take less powder for similar speeds. I used foam filler, no crimp.

JPK, just shot you a PM.

Brett

BTW, nice buff and ele.

Brett,

That last picture is really nice! It looks like it should be out of a catalog or something. It really reminds one of the classic ivory hunters. Very cool.

Brett,
I would probably opt for the Woodleigh solid, the seperation may be caused by using two different bullets...

Find a solid that will group in one group, you presently have two groups..

I don't find your rifles grouping unacceptable for me. I want any rifle to shoot a 1 to 1.5" group at 50 yards..I might want to poke something in the eye. This minute of grapefruit business is a croc IMO....

I think your gun is capable of a 4 shot 1 to 1.5 inch group, so load up one bullet and get it shooting right with that one load, then you can play with it and find a soft that will hit the same POI...

Brett:

Another option would be to use the excellent GS Custom FN solids. www.gscustom.co.za You can get them from Neal Shirley at www.custombrassandbullets.com He is located in Yuma, AZ. Good guy to deal with.

Good Luck.

RCG

Brett,

Good set of comments here. Agree that you should use woodleigh solids as first choice for seeking best group. Shoot from rest with rifle in hand and against shoulder looking for the best composite group at 50 yds over 2,000 fps. You should be able to get 1 to 1-1/2 inches judging by your 25 yd group. Then check to see where the barrels print at 25 yds. I use IMR 4831 in an H&H 500/450 with 90%+ loading density but go with what you've got.

Agree that once you've got the solids sorted, organize a load for your favorite softs that shoots to the same POI.

Regards, Tim

Gentlemen,

Mike Brady shot me an email after reading this thread and reiterated that North Fork cup points ARE NOT ELEPHANT BULLETS! And Mike suggested posting this warning again.

Mike is frustrated that he seems to have trouble with people misunderstanding this and warns, "If you guys don't knock off this crap of going after elephant with CP solids, one of you is going to wind up stepped on.......PERMANENTLY."

Please don't shoot the messanger (me), or Mike Brady, who obviously patrols here and is just concerned for our safety.

JPK

Mike Brady doesn't now crap about whereof he speaks.

He used to, but he bailed on my bullets of choice. Now that I sort of understand his design, I can't get any!

From what I have seen of recovered cup point bullets, I suspect, because I haven't used them on eles, that you could get by on side brain shots for sure. Frontals might be iffy, but heart/lung shots would be okay, assuming they are driven at speed.

HI Mikie.

Repeat after me...."Cups for buffs, flats for elephant"......then you won't have to worry about what the f's in the right vs left barrel. Of course now that you can't get the NF's....the Woodleigh's will have to suffice.
Or the GS...or ...just use solids for elephant.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

If you ground the cup of the CP and ended up with a FN would it be the same as the regular FN? Although it would obviously weigh a little less.

465H&H

Annealed?

They are annealed.

How bout slowly filing off material so that you don't heat the bullet up?

Put a couple of soft firring strips with say ten CP's in between in a vice and stroke one and then the next... Rotate to take material evenly. Don't heat up the bullet.

Or is this just stupid and asking for trouble?

JPK