I have been looking for a buffalo hunt next year. I have all the money saved, the 401k is full, taxes paid up. I have been looking for a non RSA/zim hunt. I don't have the bucks to do a 21 day hunt...just looking for 10 day hunt with 4 days for travel.

Botswana may cost more than I wish to spend. Moz looks good... have talked to a few people who say it is pretty rough.

Tanz looks good (if you get a honest outfitter).

What has really shocked me is they have a few farms in Zambia that they raise them like cattle.

I was dissappointed to see a pet cape buffalo around the camp fire. Then they show pics of this thing following them like a pet dog.

I think I will pass on a semi-tame pet buffalo from Zambia. This strikes me as sickening as the canned Lion hunts from the RSA.

What do you think..... is a farm raised cape buffalo as bad as a canned lion?

urdubob

Hunting Cape buffalo that were raised to be hunted is anathema to me.

Purveyors of such 'hunts' be damned, as well.

Here is an idea for you: go hunt with Roger Whittall at Humani (Save Conservancy). He can put you onto wild buffalo, and you don't have to worry about hunting with someone on the State Dept.'s shitlist.

George

I personally am a bit scared of Sally the friendy buff, especially when she chases the vehicle.

Thank god we dont have a pet Lion

Peter

Buffalo raised to hunt are one thing....not to keen on that myself if they are semi-tame cow like buff!

Buff have been raised like cattle quite a bit before. The buff in question are generically termed 'disease free' buffalo as they are free of corridor disease having come from areas free of brown tick, FnM etc etc The value of these is that they can be released around cattle ranching areas, areas without these diseases etc without posing a threat of transmitting disease to livestock.

Hence, the monetary value of disease free buff is significant and owning them and trading in them is big money because of their conservation status. Disease free buff were (and I am sure still are...I am a bit out of touch in last few years of travelling) also raised in vitro by WBRC in RSA and I think Natl parks in Vaalbos NP.

At the time I worked there, Pilanesberg GR in RSA had a little over a hundred of these buff and hunted two per season (Coenraad Vermaak Safaris) but were actaully thinking of stopping that idea as the trophy fee was nowhere close to actual economic value (at that time 10 times+ that of a 'normal' buff). What the case is now I am not sure, I am a little out of touch.

Now, I personally would doubt if buff in Zim/Zam are those disease free types - but I stand corrected, perhaps someone can comment?

Just to alert you that all buff in captivity are necessarily up for 'canned hunts' but unfortunately I am sure some entrepeneurial types have jumped on this novel idea!

George,

Hate to burst your bubble but there is a pet cape buffalo at Humani, or at least there was in late Oct.

Nice, cute, little fellow. He loves to play with the two, young, pet zebras. All were reared as orphans. One of the PH's had to shoot his mother to keep himself and his client unpeirced.

I would sugest that rather than a buff hunt with RWS at Humani, a buff hunt in Chewore South with RWS would be the way to go. But they want a 14 day minimum I beleive, at least in Chewore. Humani has buff too but Chewore is thick with them.

JPK

JPK,

Roger would never let you shoot that buff, anyway.

Yes, Chewore may be thick with them, but Chewore doesn't have the other game that the Save Valley Conservancy has, especially big leopards.

And there are no tsetse flies at Humani. God, those things drove me nuts in Tanzania!

George

quote:

I personally am a bit scared of Sally the friendy buff, especially when she chases the vehicle.

Funny coincidence....just moments before opening this thread I happened to be watching the Sportsman on Film video, Zambia Buffalo and Roan, with Sally starring as camp pet.

Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
...there is a pet cape buffalo at Humani, or at least there was in late Oct. Nice, cute, little fellow. He loves to play with the two, young, pet zebras...

You mean these little guys:





Its a shame, but Roger's wife said that when the zebra get older, they become quite nasty and have to be put down. She was hoping that the zebra and buffalo would become good friends and could be released together. When we were there in July, it looked like the buffalo calf and the young cow were best buds.

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by urdubob:
I have been looking for a buffalo hunt next year. I have all the money saved, the 401k is full, taxes paid up. I have been looking for a non RSA/zim hunt. I don't have the bucks to do a 21 day hunt...just looking for 10 day hunt with 4 days for travel.

Botswana may cost more than I wish to spend. Moz looks good... have talked to a few people who say it is pretty rough.

Tanz looks good (if you get a honest outfitter).

What has really shocked me is they have a few farms in Zambia that they raise them like cattle.

I was dissappointed to see a pet cape buffalo around the camp fire. Then they show pics of this thing following them like a pet dog.

I think I will pass on a semi-tame pet buffalo from Zambia. This strikes me as sickening as the canned Lion hunts from the RSA.

What do you think..... is a farm raised cape buffalo as bad as a canned lion?

urdubob

------------------------------------------------

Urudu,

There are plenty of free ranging buffalo around to hunt. Swainsons in Zim is a good outfitter. Miombo in Tanzania is also a good outfitter. I’ve hunted with both. Peter Chipman in Zambia (I've heard, I haven't hunted with him)is supposed to be good as well.

Any buffalo which you can hunt outside of a park in the RSA is behind a high fence and many are not disease free.

To each their own but I am not into "Ranch" hunting especially when you start looking at the trophy fee's these places want for a buffalo.

And yes when you factor in the daily fee's else where it all equals out. But I like to hunt free ranging animal in a truly wild environment. The adventure of getting there can be half the fun sometimes. There is nothing more disheartening to me than pulling off the black top and through the guarded gate to go hunt "wildest" Africa. I've gone with friend to several of these ranches and while they are beautiful and the "camps" are luxurious it's not really the experience most adventure bound hunters are looking for in my opinion.

Farm PH's from South Africa will do back flips and froth at the mouth at the mere mention that their hunting is not as "wild" even with a high fence included. I find this to be nothing more than a defense mechanism and a sales pitch all mixed into one. If you want to hunt a "farm" that's fine. But it is not the same experience.

Oh yeah one other thing. Don't think for a second that a farm buff can't give you the chop just as quick as "wild" buff. They can kick your butt no matter the up bringing.

George,

Funny but I didn't really mind the tetses. The tetses aren't any worse than our horseflies at the beaches and in the marshes near here. I didn't know our horseflies were so bad till I read of everyone bitching about the tetses! I'll just have to make it to the beach and call it conditioning!

The typical RWS plan is to go to Chewore for buff and ? and then to move down to Humani. I hunted leopards both places and struck out both places, but Humani does have big leopards and I'll be hunting leopards in both places this year, and elephants too. Humani is thick with plains game for sure.

JPK

FWIW, cigar smoke drives tetses away. Doesn't help much in the open on a brezzy day but it sure does in the cab of the truck.

BillC,

Nice fun photos. I couldn't dig mine up. Glad you could. In Oct, the buff and cow were best buds along and hung around with the zebra and a donkey, IIRC.

JPK

urdubob

Sorry to dissapoint you, but here is dear Sally just to lighten up your day (-:



Dont take life toooooooo seriously is my motto as when we are gone no SOB worries about us

Have a wonderful day in the south

Regards

Peter

You might laugh at this story.

We were hunting in Westwood in Zimbabwe. Our camp was right at the Zambezi River.

Quite often, we found a few bulls not far from the camp. Roy called them "his camp buffalo"

We were getting towards the end of our hunt, and we still had one bull to shoot, but were not able to find one.

Late one morning, we were taking an animal we had shot back to camp, and we saw those bulls not far from the camp, in their usual place.

Roy said "we will drop this at the sknning shed and have a drink, then we can come back and shoot one of those bulls"

"I though these were your camp buffalo?" I said.
"Yes, but you still have one buffalo to shoot"
"I think I will pass on these, I am sure we will find one tomorrow"

Next day we were driving near the Luzi River, and we saw a klipspringer, and decided to shoot it.

I had a 7mm rifle for plains game, and I took that and went to get the klipspringer.

We have not gone 200 yards when one of the boys from the truck came running, to tell us they could see buffalo feeding on the other side of the river.

We went back, swapped rifles, and went and shot our last buffalo.

They were several bulls. And the one I shot took off running with them. I hit him twice as he was going away, and then he stopped about 300 yards away looking back. I fired one last shot at him, and he dropped.

We were glad we did not have to shoot one of the camp bulls, and still filled our tags.

If you want to shoot tame buff, hunt them in australia.

I have only one thing to say about farm-raised buffalo:

Tastes great!

Just as an addition to Saeed's story. Often a group of old dagga boys will use a camp as a sort of refuge from lions etc. hanging around at night etc. These fellows also often like the watered grass if it exists! Because they see so much human activity they are often quite "tame" - that is tame I imagine until the first shot was fired......

quote:

Originally posted by urdubob:

What has really shocked me is they have a few farms in Zambia that they raise them like cattle.

I would not consider hunting with such an outfit. One of the agents who used to post on AR once sent me a quote for a buffalo "hunt" in Zambia. First, the hunt was for buffalo only. No PG species were available on the ranch. If PG were desired, then transfer to a PG area and another daily rate were required. The 10 day buffalo "hunt" was to be conducted according to a schedule that went something like this:

Day 1: Get on a plane in Atlanta.
Day 2: Change planes in JoBerg. Arrive in Zambia. Drive to camp.
Day 3: Sight in and begin hunting.
Days 4-8: Hunt.
Day 9: Drive to airport and depart.
Day 10: Arrive at home.

The price was similar to a hunt in Tanzania. Needless to say, that was not a very interesting proposal.

Most any buff you hunt in Zim/Zam etc will not be disease free, but by the same token is not necessarily 'diseased'. This is not a case unique to RSA at all.

Sorry, Balla-Balla I did not try to step on your toes. Do you vacienate the animals? How large is the paddock you shoot them in? Do you have to feed them or do they free range?

Not trying to be an ass...as a former cattle rancher just asking how similar these are to domestic cattle.

That may explain my somewhat harsh tone.


Urdubob

quote:

Originally posted by kayaker:
Most any buff you hunt in Zim/Zam etc will not be disease free, but by the same token is not necessarily 'diseased'. This is not a case unique to RSA at all.

Sport hunters couldn't care less about that. They just want a fair chase hunt of a free-roaming animal in the wild.

Totally agree,

My point was just that the terms can often make the animals sound like they have a 'problem', which is not true. Its just a case of geography and pathology. The original post wondering why there would be buff in captivity other than for canned hunts.

Just letting him know that some captive buff are used to breed particular animals that are used to increase buff numbers outside certain areas to avoid threat of agric contamination.

I agree that hunters should seek wild animals (at risk of opening that ethics debate again!)

Cheers

I think people get way to caught up in the high fence thing common to SA. Having hunted in SA, Zim, and Bots, I have found that the only thing the fences do is insure a huntable game population. I have hunted ranches in north RSA that covered miles of property. There were Buffalo, rhino, sable, roan, you name it. Believe me when I say the fence was not a factor. In contrast last year I hunted in Zim along Hwange park. The only fence was the park boundary and most of that had been destroyed by Jumbo. Reality is most of the hunting was done by water holes. Call me crazy but I felt like this was less of a chalenge than hunting in SA. So what is my point? I think there is a big misconception about high fence hunting in SA. True some operations use very small Pens for their hunts and that style is not for me. Others have vast miles of property that provide a chalenge for any hunter regardless of the fence that surrounds it.

One comment on farm raised Buff might be the potential for a "docilized" composure among the herds over time. Even in the case of fencing that covers huge tracts of land. Most farmers would drive off predator populations endangering their "Crop" Pressure from Lions is part of what drives the aggressive tendency of Nyati in the wild, it defines their traits, and behaviour, and contributes to the hunting experience.
Over time with no such pressures existing the nature of the animals could change and in some ways limit what has made the Cape Buff one of the most sought after D/G animal in Africa.

You know..... she looks nice and tender i bet she would be the guest of honor at my next Briaa.





"Don_G
one of us
Picture of Don_G

Posted 24 January 2006 15:18
I have only one thing to say about farm-raised buffalo:

Tastes great!

Smiler


Don_G

...from Texas, by way of Mason, Ohio!"

I could not agree more Don.

Urdubob

Holy Cow,..err buffalo. Carmello has made an entirely inciteful, relavent, thoughtful contribution!

And I think he's on to something with his inciteful comment.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by urdubob:
Sorry, Balla-Balla I did not try to step on your toes. Do you vacienate the animals? How large is the paddock you shoot them in? Do you have to feed them or do they free range?

Not trying to be an ass...as a former cattle rancher just asking how similar these are to domestic cattle.

That may explain my somewhat harsh tone.

Urdubob

urdobob

Absolutely no need to be sorry, I respect all opinions and no sore toes on my side at all. Mind you if Sally stood on them I would be in a whole heap of pain.

To answer your questions ..

The ranch is of cource (game fenced) and approximately 10,000 acre or for those in metric 3,100 hectare. It borders on the Kafue National Park and is about 60 kms south from Lake Itezhi Tezhi. The location is in a flood plain so @ this time of the year it is about one fifth under water or if not heavily soaked/waterlogged.

The herd animals are free range ... (Sally) was rescued as a baby by our PH Dene, it was stuck in a hole and would have died had Dene not taken it back to camp and bottle fed it to good health. Fortunately OR unfortunately dependant on each persons perspective, Sally decided to hang around camp and pester us, and she still does that to this day. She does wander off between camp and house and also into the bush, and of cource she chases the vehicle so it can be a minor problem at times. WE had a second lady (Girlie) rescued and she hang around camp for a while BUT ultimaely joined the vast herds and mingled away.

Apart from hunting we are into basic Safaris (game viewing and photo) and are also big into miscellaneous (Wildlife Conservation) projects

WE (dont vacinate) the animals as they are wild in the bush BUT we do have some outside game capture xperts come onto the ranch and take a small percentage of the (new borns) and pen them (like you might do with cattle) and then other (vetinary experienced people) and or INTERESTED PARTIES locally within Zambia and/or outside the country might come and take blood samples and get it tested at the main (Scientific lab in South Africa) and all the other technical rigmarole that is involved in producing clean buffalo. This is a long winded specialised expensive process and best left to scientific xperts. The buff in pens are essentially sold to others worlwide as required.

We have (more than enough animals) wild on the property in natural habitat In short, it is a side line (clean buffalo project) on a smale/medium scale, these animals are purchased by outside entities.

All questions welcome, but I am not resident on the property and not a (wildlife scientist) so I can only offer laymans answers to these questions

OH & finally,

I am in (total agreement with you) on GB Smith & Rhodesia (-:

Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 1 US Dollar = 96,576.0 Zimbabwe Dollar (OUCH thats painfull)

Peter

I personally have only been around buffalo behind wire once. Last year I spent 9 days on Bonwa Phala with Garry Kelly in RSA. There he has about 35 buffalo and the 20,000 acres is mostly thick bush. We bumped some of the herd 3 times while I was there and it seemed to me that they acted no different than buffalo in any other place. Yes the fence does take something away from the experience but I think the actual buffalo hunting is the same with an equal amount of danger. This particular herd is not fed and takes care of itself as any wild herd would anywhere.

Someone also mentioned the Save. I just can't imagine that on nearly a million acres that holds all the Big 5 including lion that a buffalo hunt there would be any differnt than one in the Zambezi Valley. I may be wrong and I won't have hunted there until '07 but I can't imagine it being a lesser experience.

Several posters here have hunted buffalo on the Save. I'd be interested in their thoughts on the hunt.

Mark

quote:

I personally have only been around buffalo behind wire once. Last year I spent 9 days on Bonwa Phala with Garry Kelly in RSA. There he has about 35 buffalo and the 20,000 acres is mostly thick bush.

Just an interesting (I think) anecdote that is similar to yours...

I have spent 20 days hunting at Landelani Game Lodge in RSA. They have 35 buffalo or so, on 15,000 HA's (42,000 acres'ish). I never managed to catch sight of one of them! They are not hunted (at least not that I am aware), but they sure are spooky. Anyway, it just amazed me that I never managed to see one in all that time....heard them a number of times, and saw plenty of sign though.

I think if you waited by the right waterhole every daylight hour, it would be a slam dunk to get one, but hunting them on foot in that thick cover would be a challenge. I am not advocating buff hunting in RSA, per se, just making an observation about cape buff at Landelani, as my experience seems similar to the one you related.

Wasn't somebody killed by one of these farm raised buffalo last year?

cable68

YES a PH/Farmer Outfitter was killed by a so called tame buff in South Africa last year, in fact it was quite (very near) to my brother South African ranches in Limpopo Province where the death took place. The ranch was near Mara reserch station in fact which is between Bandelierkop and Louis Trichardt

Regards, Peter

quote:

Originally posted by cable68:
Wasn't somebody killed by one of these farm raised buffalo last year?

Nothing startling about that.
I hear of 4 or 5 people killed by domestic cattle in Texas every year. Usually the real tame ones.

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:
I have spent 20 days hunting at Landelani Game Lodge in RSA. They have 35 buffalo or so, on 15,000 HA's (42,000 acres'ish). I never managed to catch sight of one of them! They are not hunted (at least not that I am aware), but they sure are spooky. Anyway, it just amazed me that I never managed to see one in all that time....heard them a number of times, and saw plenty of sign though.

I think if you waited by the right waterhole every daylight hour, it would be a slam dunk to get one, but hunting them on foot in that thick cover would be a challenge. I am not advocating buff hunting in RSA, per se, just making an observation about cape buff at Landelani, as my experience seems similar to the one you related.

A tracker and I stumbled across this herd while tracking eland. I got to within about 80 yards in the thick cover, then realized Samual was not with me any longer. I looked back and saw him peeking from behind a tree. He was absolutely spooked by the Cape Buff.

In three days of criss-crossing Landelani on foot trying for eland that was the only sighting of the buff herd. I did see 2-3 cows one other time, that may have been the edge of the herd.

I never got a clear view of a bull. I would say that buff hunting on Landelani would be a challenge - even though it is a "paddock".

Even though there was supposedly a good population of eland on the place, I got a single glimpse of a young bull in the three days of tracking them. They'd be a challenge, too, IMHO.

Mark,

I have hunted at Humani in the Save Conservancy as part two of a hunt that started in Chewore South.

The Save is pretty neat but I prefered Chewore. It is much "wilder" and more remote. Game of all sort is plentiful at Humani. I saw maybe ten lions there, maybe sixty or eighty elephants, countless plains game and one herd of buff.

The plains game are hunted and so are spooky, but so plentiful that even the worst or least mobile hunter could not avoid success. A handi capped hunter could do very well there.

The elephants, particularly the cows, are very ornery. If I were hunting near the elephants I would not carry a rifle of less than 375H&H and then with a soft up the spout and all solids below. I was there in Oct and the elephants came down to the river each evening. We had a very close run with one when looking for a warthog. Two shots over head eventually checked her ears back, silent charge at mere feet and we were going backward in the truck as fast as we could. Also, while hunting a tuskless, we were charged a half dozen times but were able to make a dash and hide in the thick green. Along the river, in the evening, the 375 is a must have, whatever game you are looking for, IMO.

We were not hunting buff so we weren't looking for them. But we saw only one herd. I don't recall seeing that much sign but again, we weren't looking for it.

In Chewore, buff were very plentiful. I killed three, one 40", one 37" but with the most massive boss overhanging his eyes and great drop and mass, and a cow for lion and leopard bait. Buff were secondary to tuskless, of which there are plenty, and an unsuccessful try at lion and leopard.


Hope this helps.

JPK
If I wanted a great buff hunt with buff my primary target I would not hesitate to return to Chewore.

Bob,
we have some nice deals and buff in Moz on the old Piet Hougaardt concession. The new owners are doing a fair amount of upgrading but if you are looking at wild africa it does not get much better than this.
A 10 day hunt including the charter from Harare will be $12500.
Drop us a PM if you want more details.
500

There might have been two deaths from farm raised buffalo in South Africa last year, because I believe that another farmer/concession owner was killed by one of his buff in the Northern Cape area near Douglas, South Africa. Two clients that I had sent to hunt that area for plains game were there when it happened and attended the gentleman's funeral. The deceased happened to be a neighbor and good friend of the PH that I had sent them to hunt with. Peter, are we talking about the same individual?