I read this over at the hunting report click on link to see the comments from recent passengers...

Read Passenger Comments Here



South African Airways has begun to use Airbus 340-600s on its long-haul flights from the US, relegating its 747's to the dustbin of history. Unfortunately, when it changed planes, it adopted a seat configuration so punishing to travelers it has generated a tidal wave of complaints. Here at The Hunting Report, we've never seen anything quite like the uproar this seat configuration has created. Read the comments yourself - and weep. And/or post a comment yourself. Are you listening, South African Airways? - Don Causey, Editor/Publisher.

Sunday 18 Apr 2004
Sunday Times (South Africa)

SAA keeps leg-room complaints on hold as it awaits feedback

Aviation

By Roger Makings


South African Airways has no immediate plans to change the configuration of the seats in its new Airbus aircraft despite a slew of complaints.

Readers of a daily newspaper mounted a campaign against "lack of space" for passengers in the economy class of the Airbus A340-600s, saying they preferred the seats on the older Boeing 747s.


Among their gripes were that the seats were too hard and that they had a lot of "exposed hard metal edges". Aisle space was also said to be restricted.


One reader complained of a "large box" under every second row of seats, which meant that only one leg could be extended.


SAA's vice-president for communications, JJ Tabane, said this week that the airline was monitoring passenger feedback and would, in time, "act accordingly" if necessary.


"The aircraft are a new product and it will take time to find out passengers' response to the product," he said.


Of the boxes under seats in every second row - they are about half the size of a carry-on bag - Tabane said these were there to provide a superior in-flight entertainment system in economy class.


The system allowed each passenger his or her own screen and choice of programme. Otherwise, passengers would be forced to watch a single show on large, roof-mounted screens, he said.


He agreed that this "option comes at a price in leg-room for some passengers".


With regard to seat pitch, he said SAA matched that of most major carriers, 81cm or 79cm, and that the seats in the Boeing 747 were no bigger than those of the Airbus.


Tabane said there were no plans to change the seats or configuration of the Airbuses which had yet to be delivered.


"We need to balance the issue of a superior entertainment system and leg-room. To do this we are constantly getting feedback from our passengers through call centres and letters. Once a clear picture emerges, we will take action if necessary."


However, Virgin Atlantic, which also operates A340-600s, said it had a comparable entertainment system. It also needed boxes under seats but this did not impinge on leg-room. "We have only a few boxes in economy, and they do not affect leg-room," said Virgin spokesman Tracey Meaker. Passengers had not complained about space in economy.


Meanwhile, SAA will drop Atlanta in the US as a destination after the airline joins the Star Alliance later this year.


SAA chief executive Andr� Viljoen says the carrier will instead fly to Washington, where passengers will be able to connect with United Airlines, SAA's new partner in the US.


Previously passengers joined Delta Air Lines in Atlanta to fly to other destinations in the US.


Viljoen says United Airlines has strong connections to the popular US West Coast destinations of Los Angeles and San Francisco, among others.


SAA will continue to fly to New York's JFK Airport.


The main attraction at Star is the corporate contracts that the alliance, headed by Lufthansa, has secured from major companies in the UK and Europe.


"These contracts not only bring extra passengers but also improve our yield.


"The passengers, both leisure and corporate travellers, pay in euros and sterling and fly the premium classes, where we make our profits," according to Viljoen.


Under the Star agreement, SAA will keep its partnership with Cathay Pacific, a oneworld member, but will also team up with Star member Singapore Airlines, which has a wide network in Asia and direct access to China.


The benefit to passengers, says Viljoen, is easy access to 127 countries and 680 airports worldwide through 15 airlines.


"Our passengers will also earn frequent-flyer miles on all these carriers and have many more destinations to which they can burn off those miles," he says.


Premium-class passengers will have entry to the 580 Star Alliance lounges around the world and benefit from the cheaper "add-on" fares rather than be subjected to full-fare prices for connections.


Viljoen says besides the extra revenue from increased load factors, there are significant cost savings to be had in joint fuel purchases, insurance, equipment, spares and training as well as access to Star's global technology system.


SAA has about 80 offices and general sales agents around the world, nearly half of which could be rationalised by using Star offices instead.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

The Mercury (South Africa)

EDITORIAL

SAA woes grow
August 31, 2004

By the Editor

The SAA management must be reeling under the negative scrutiny the national carrier has attracted this month. Its finances are in serious disarray - its loss widened to a staggering R8.7 billion in the year to March from R6.2 billion the previous year.

And Maria Ramos, chief executive of the airline's parent, parastatal Transnet, is not amused. While she has said the government would initially try to bail out the airline, she was not ruling out an outright sale in the long run.

To salvage Transnet, SAA would be moved into a government department in the near future, with the plan being to find an equity partner for the airline.

With the national carrier fighting stiff competition - it is cheaper to fly domestically on most other airlines - it has to lift its game plan.

With so much at stake, one would think SAA would be going all out to come up with a strategic business plan involving a pricing restructure, better service and innovative plans to attract more passengers.


Its public face also needs a major makeover. In recent weeks there have been numerous complaints about the impossibly cramped conditions on some of the airline's overseas routes.

The blame has been laid on SAA's decision to replace its old Boeing fleet with the smaller Airbus A340-600 - with the result that many passengers are now refusing to fly SAA.

Official comment from SAA on the complaints was that while it was looking at ways of improving leg-room in the economy class of the Airbus, it was "satisfied that we match the major competitors flying into South Africa".

Frequent international flyers, however, have argued that other airlines were much better.

Last week The Mercury reported on a Durban man who died of suspected deep vein thrombosis after an SAA flight from London to Durban. Comment on the matter was not forthcoming from SAA.

Clearly the national carrier is flying by the seat of its pants.

Dear AR Guests

This is a copy of my posting in another thread, thought it might be appropriate to add it to this one

Peter
---------------------------

What if Saeed pulled some strings and should we say ( SECONDED ) an Emirates Airbus, had his close relatives sort of re-fit out the seats to Saeed recommendations & satisfaction, then had it painted and with the appropriate AR buffalo logo and used it for ALL us (right wing conservative hunters) and AVID gun lovers, maybe even put the webpage URL in bold text on it just to annoy the liberals ..

Maybe even get the big boys with (long bucks) like NRA SCI to help with logo sponsorship as well, sell space on the fuselarge for hunting sponsors, would that annoy the anti gun lobby no end, it's time we fought back against the PC brigade trying to kill the sport we love

Maybe it could be leased on a never never pay back scenario !!! We will promote it WORLWIDE across America and get every SOB Hunter to join the AR/Emirates Club, maybe we can even consider the issue an [ AR Credit Card ] to complete the marketing plan !!!

Donations welcome to start the plan going

PS: I hope Saeed does't castigate me for thinking out of the square and using his good name in vain (-: Nothing ever happined in the world without wild ideas from idiots like me .... OR do you think the chaps in the white coats should pay me a visit

Peter

I flew twice this year, and on all four legs (three Atlanta and one JFK), the planes were FULL. As in zero extra seats anywhere (except maybe business class). So it would appear that they have the business to justify a proper plane.

I recently had the misfortune of being prisoner on one of SAA's flying cattle cars. 21 hours and 45 minutes of hell. I emailed SAA when I returned and they replied that they have had numerous complaints about the new planes-DUH!! The next time I go to Africa, it will absolutely not be on one of these flying turds. Why the hell they are changing from the 747, I'm not sure. I guess these pieces of crap must be a whole lot cheaper bo buy and fly.

Someone asked why the 747 was retired...it was for cost. It burns more fuel and has higher crew costs.

At least SAA is going to Star Alliance - I only have 50K miles on Delta, but a boatload on United.

Who says our e-mail campaign wasn't heard in the upper-echelons of management at SAA's parent! We need to keep the heat on and continue to voice our complaints. I only wish there was more competition on the overseas flights from the States. Sadly, the only other route is through Europe and the last leg is still SAA most of the time. How friendly are the airports in Washington now that it may be the new hub for SAA?

Dulles is horrible if you are coming in via a commuter plane - they have these people movers that are atrocious. But if you fly in via a normal jet, you shouldn't have a problem.

I suppose I'm the only hunter traveling to africa on the airbus who didn't have a life threatnig experience. I went over mid July and returned mid September On SAA in an Airbus. I'm 6'1" and weigh 250lbs. Not exactly small by any means. The Recaro seats I found to as if not more comfortable than those of the 747. I've made 8 trips so have a little experience. The aisle seat legroom was adequate. No little boxes. I am claustrophobic and always have an aisle seat. I did not feel any more threatened than in a 747. The things that have changed that do detract are the tv didn't work on trip over or back. Even if they work I can not see the screen if the seat in front is reclined. The screen will not tip far enough up. That said I had the same problem in the 747. The meal service dishes were definitely lower quality but the meals were quite good. I was not offered wine with my meal on trip over but was on return trip. As far as attendent courtesy and competance I could really detect no real change. The stop at Sol on return where we were required to remain in seats and hold over head luggage in our laps was realy rather dumb. I have not in last 5 years been allowed to deplane at Sol. While I liked the 747 better ( I always tried to get the upper deck)
I will continue to fly SAA and the Airbus. It is still the best transport to southern Africa.

I hope the man who died's family sues the crap out of SAA. I knew that something like that was going to happen. 22 hours sitting in that cramped P.O.S. plane is asking for serious health trouble. If SAA is going to be the only way to get to Africa, looks like this trip was my last. Thanks again SAA.

Guests



This is on order now



Please get in early and book your seats on the cut price fares ..



There are only 3 catches !!!



Saeed is the Chief Pilot



Ray is the Air Marshall



Walter is the Witch Doctor and entertainment director



JudgeG is the Chief Air Hostess serving drinks



Peter

Peter:

Truth is stranger than fiction. Ray used to fly armed all the time when he was with the DEA and Saeed and I have commercial pilot's licenses.

The only problem with the airline would be the turn around time. The three of us would have to take a 21 day safari every round trip.

JudgeG LOL



One thing I forget to mention !



I will be (non paying) chief hunting guide and bottle opener without official portfolio (-:



Please get EXTRA [ Travel Insurance ] as we cant guaranteee to find the bush airstrip first time in the Selous as we are using the stars for guidance as the GPS has not been installed on this cut price fares model



PS: To save on maintainance costs [ I will do the full service on the engines ] as I used to make model planes about 50 years ago when I was a kid and I remember the basics of engine performance quite well. I can get one of the local tribesmen to be my grease monkey and hand me the hammer and cresent wrench, a bit of a tap here and there and she will be running like a well oiled REPLICA SWISS WATCH



Regards,

You need to have an ATP. thats an Airline Transport Pilot to fly one of those. Since I have an ATP I get to be captain buckwheat. Or just go and Buy a Gulfsteam V and fly when you want where you want? They are about 40 mill plus another 10 mill to fit out. Add hanger and crew costs some insurance. About a Billion in assets will cover the bills and leave enough for an elephant or two. I can see the Airlines point, in all of this, do the same work with two engines and two pilots vs four engines and a pilot crew of three for the older 747's or a pilot crew of two with the 747-400's. Look they fill the airplanes up with as many paying pax as possible. Leg room in coach is gone, sardine can, so buy a first class ticket leg room and free booze. But since we like to hunt, we would rather spend the difference on another trophy fee. After all its only a 21 hour flight, and extra trophy on the wall, priceless. Now in the old days it was by steam ship, a more Civil way to travel. Then again the Foot safari for a year or two is gone too.

I just looked into a flight going West to East instead of the normal route, and the rate for business class was $5900.

That's just a hair over double what I paid for the AirCuss.

I'd gladly pay that for a hunter friendly flight, with even HALF the width and legroom of business class....I can see it now...buffalo steaks for dinner, hunting videos, and zebra patterned seat covers...

I'm in!

Terry: Regarding the article you osted, I don't think SAA plans to drop the Atlanta route, at least not anytime soon. I jsut booked for June of 05 through Atlanta. I have the tickets in my safe...ready to go! jorge

Peter: I had a roommate at one time who said they used beer cans and duct tape to patch up holes in planes in VietNam. Sounds like you're on top of the maintenance, and this idea may help for some of the bush landings.

Check out Virgin Atlantic's Upper Class Suite man, that is some kind of airplane seat. [There is also a contest for 2 free seats].

They have two classes of Economy

Premium Economy and

Economy

Now if we can only get them to fly to Africa from the US.

Regards,

Terry

Fred,

Renae and I are hunting in Namibia in '05, and we plan to fly with Air Namibia. It looks like the route is to JFK and Lufthansa to Frankfurt, then Air Namibia to Windhoek.

Air Namibia is using MD 11s it leased from SwissAir now, and they are moving to the Airbus 340 -- because they are cheaper to fly. Air Namibia though uses the same seat pitch as Singapore Air: 86 cm (about 34"), or mo' bettah than SAA.

SAA inflicted this cattle car configuration on themselves. I wish them well of it.

jim

Thank God!
I was afraid Walter would be the mechanic.
Sign me up.
JCN

I just returned a couple weeks ago on SAA Airbus. I have already sent in my complaint. I won't fly SAA again until things change. The plane is slower, an add'l. stop for fuel, the food was crap, the seats are way too small, we won't even talk about leg room.
For the same cost you can fly to Germany, overnight & fly on to JHB or other africa destinations, all on a 747. Next time I'll go that route.

I know in the old days, SAA went out of their way to provide better service than the rest. Now all they want to do is be like the rest.

Thanks for the humour. It�s hiding undercover and abruptly rushing up, just like a sound heart.
I observe 2 problems in the post 1 Airbus
2 seats configuration.
Personnally I don�t care about the plane�s manufacturer. I care about the airlines company.You spoke of Cathay, Singapore airlines. I didn�t note if they are using Airbus or Boeing but I felt comfortable with them.
The sole trouble is seats configuration, which depends only of the company and furthermore of the kind of destinations.
�only other route is through Europe and the last leg is still SAA�
If you have to put in in Europe, you aren�t prisonner of SAA. Every big European company serves Joberg every day. Free enterprise is back : you may choose among at least 5 airlines major companies. May be you are prisonner of packages, of bussiness alliances between airlines companies. Remember the choice is fairly vast and from Europe the planes don�t take up simultaneously and are not Boeing only or Airbus only. Moreover, I think you can manage to minimize the time lost in the stopper, should you opt for the appropriate companies. The costs could be a bit higher. IMHO, keep on roaring, you will entice other companies to provide juicy packages.
Free enterprise!!!!!!

This is Off Topic but my own experience sending cargo through SAA has been miserable. About three weeks ago I asked my office in India to send a sample consignment of flavored tobacco to South Africa on the advice of another member here and though SAA's offices in India say the consignment reached Johannesburg on Sep 15th the recipient has been contacting them on an almost daily basis with a faxed copy of the Air Waybill without any success in getting the consignment. They are greater cheats than Air India and Pakistan International Airlines, which is a new record for an airline!

If Emirates were to enter this segment they would beat every other airline in the world. Emirates already has a division called Emirates Holidays and I wish they would concentrate on the Safari segment - now that they fly out of New York, it would be a superb value addition to their already impressive range of services.

Good hunting!

Null and Void, posted in ERROR

Just so everyone knows what an A340 looks like (4 engines, etc), here's a photo.



surestrike,

I enjoyed your rant!!!



-Bob F.

Surestrike: GREAT POST, what did you fly before you went airlines? Just for the record, just about every piece of gear that France makes is garbage. In the military, the Mirage was given all kinds of praise because of the Israeli's succeses Vs. the arabs in their many wars. Let's be real, the Isrelis could have been flying sopwith camels with snoopy and still whip their asses. We had them (mirages)over here for adversary training in the USN and they FELL APART in about a third of the operational life they told us it would have. Thier aircraft carrier, the Charles De Gaulle, is a joke when it comes to maintenance and reliability. Hell, one of their screws FELL OFF during an at sea period. Take a look at their auto industry: Renault? Oh yeah, that's french for "road block." jorge

A buddy of mine who flies 777's for Singapore said it best:


"Do you really want to fly in a plane designed by French Software Engineers?"

Jorge I have done the same. My tickets are safely packed away. Hope they don't send out one of those slips that say flight cancelled. Good hunting. "D"

Surestrike: Most of my time was in S-3B Vikings, but I've flown the TA-4, T-2, T-39 and in the F-4. All carrier aviation except for the T-39. Your kind of flying was pretty tactical also! I often thought about doing that kind of "bush flying" after retirement. DHunter; Maybe Kathi can elaborate on the Delta/SAA/Atlanta issue? jorge

Seems we aren't the only ones debating this Boeing v. Airbus

Regards,

Terry

Pete; You couldn't be more wrong. First, the US goverment does NOT subsidize Boeing in any way when it comes to aircraft production. Second, the reason the Airbus is selling well is BECAUSE the various socialist economies over there DO subsidize the Airbus, enabling a cheaper product. The new generation Boeings are faster, have better fuel economy, lower maintenace costs, etc. than the Air Bus. third, all aircraft companies have had bad products, but the DC-10 was a Douglas Aircraft product and not Boeing. And finally, the fact that we are having this thread in the first place is testament to the Airbus' inferior performance. When SAA flew 747s this never came up. jorge

Surestrike,

Quote:

---

I fly the B-777 on international trans PAC and trans Atlantic service. We cruise at .85 MAC which just screams by Airbuses

---

.85 MAC??? That still sounds really slow...every heard of Concorde?? And it was part French built too!

Now tell me which American built airliner can fly at over MAC 2?

Regards,

Pete

Thanks for the tips.
I believed Airbus was European. Scary though. Do you think the Federal Aviation Administration have been bribed?
Jorge your upset your fellow pilot and fellow hunter, Dassault manufacturer of the Mirage. A World trophies taker, a media mogul, he is the editor of �Jours de Chasse� (Hunting Days),very distinguished mag.
Renault, the best way not be maimed taking to many Gs no end, . Sorry I don�t drive any.

Jean: Sorry, but I stand by my personal experience with Mirages and french automobiles. The Airbus might be "european" in a lot of it's components, but France is the lead designer and builder. Still an inferior product, they also have serious structural design defects as evidenced by the one over New Your shortly after 9/11. A bit of wake turbulence from another jet and the tail fell off. Sorry, but Boeing is the way to go and our governement does not subsidize Boeing. jorge