Gents:
I sent two friends to hunt in Zim. for Buffalo, leopard, sable, and plains game. The contract states if meat is used it is charges at 5$ per Kilo. I asked and got this reply:

Q.--Just curious for possible future questions:
What is meant by a 5$ per kg charge for meat used? Does this mean eaten, given to villages, etc.?

A.--If you shoot a buff and are runnng out of bait they will allow you to use the meat from the buff for baiting the leopard - this is at a cost of $5.00 per kg ( as this is not considered a bait animal but a trophy animal)

This tells me if one wants to use the trophy buffalo for leopard bait, they are charged. Put out a 500KG buff and the fee is 2500$ above the trophy fee.

Is this just revenue generation to insure fees for shooting bait animals, additional income, etc.?

Any of you gents know of this being done other places? I don't believe this was told upon signing the contract--just now as the final payment is due. (The daily rate has been paid, but all trophy fees and other possible expenses are payable in advance, 30 days before the hunt begins, and will be refunded if animals not taken).

Thanks for your input.
Cal

never heard of that or trophy fees payable in full BEFORE the hunt......

Who is the outfitter?

if i saw that on my contract - i'd be finding another outfitter

Never heard of that either. I would not care for it. who is this Cal?

Cal, on Nuanetsi we encourage Impala and Zebra to be shot, as they are prolific and are the best bait animal. If there is a cat hunter in camp and they are desperate for bait then that hunter can use meat from any trophy that HE has taken at no extra charge. We are in the business to make people happy while on Safari so will be realistic with anyone who has chosen to hunt with us e.g in the unlikely event that one checks a bait late in the afternoon and they desperately need some meat to hang to keep a cat feeding then we'll "make a plan" with some other meat (if we have).

Make no mistake, the income generated from meat sales (to the public) certainly helps cover some running costs.

Game meat is normally sold between $1.50-3/kg depending on the meat type.

Cal,

Over the years I've been hunting Africa and sending clients to Africa I've never run into this. A wild guess might be that the safari company has an arrangement with the local council that ALL buffalo meat will be delivered to the locals. This is not the norm by any means.

Mark

At $5 per kilo ? - them villagers must be pretty well off!

This outfitter should be identified.

Cal,

At that price I will take the fillets and back straps.

That is a first.

Never heard of that...

Thanks for your feedback. Let's wait a few days for more responses to come in. Then, PM me for additional information. I don't want this to become a witch hunt with public attacks. However, I have noticed this particular PH has, over the years, been very money oriented.

On the other hand, when I booked my hippo and plains game hunt in Zim the outfitter just asked politely for 1/2 of the daily rate. I sent him the entire amount to simplify things and he was very thankful for me doing so. Personally I get turned off when I feel I am just an ATM machine for the PH to use to withdraw money from. I guess it takes all types.
Cheers, gents.
Cal

Delivered to the locals or sold to the locals? Perhaps the PH is loosing to much money in meat sales because hunters want to use it for baits?

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Thanks for your feedback. Let's wait a few days for more responses to come in. Then, PM me for additional information. I don't want this to become a witch hunt with public attacks. However, I have noticed this particular PH has, over the years, been very money oriented.

On the other hand, when I booked my hippo and plains game hunt in Zim the outfitter just asked politely for 1/2 of the daily rate. I sent him the entire amount to simplify things and he was very thankful for me doing so. Personally I get turned off when I feel I am just an ATM machine for the PH to use to withdraw money from. I guess it takes all types.
Cheers, gents.
Cal

Simply name the PH and AR will deal with him proper.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
A wild guess might be that the safari company has an arrangement with the local council that ALL buffalo meat will be delivered to the locals.

That would be my guess as well. In many communal areas the meat is supposed to all go to council for distribution to the local residents. It would not surprise me if an arrangement was made whereby cash would be substituted for meat.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
A wild guess might be that the safari company has an arrangement with the local council that ALL buffalo meat will be delivered to the locals.

That would be my guess as well. In many communal areas the meat is supposed to all go to council for distribution to the local residents. It would not surprise me if an arrangement was made whereby cash would be substituted for meat.

That's understandable but at $5 per kilo?

That makes my old buffalo worth more than the trophy fee by a good bit.

Cal,

I have seen this quoted in a Moz contract for using bait from another hunter. I'm doing a Moz hunt for Buffalo next year and these "bait" fees are spelled out in that contract. I have a feeling Jines and Mark Young are correct in that you are dealing with communal areas and the local council is expecting the meat other than what you, yourself shoot for baits.

As far as Zim is concerned, last year, on my lion hunt, we ended up using quite a bit of meat from some of the other hunters. Not all of their animals, but some, as baits weren't lasting more than about 3 days and we were at the end of the year's quota. No charge on those. However, upon arrival, one of the PH's had killed a buff cow in a PAC situation as they found it wounded and in need of being put down. The local council expected that meat but we were able to use it for bait on the first day of the hunt in exchange for giving them one of the kudu cows I had on bait quota. Well, it was quite hot and baits were only lasting about 3 days, so we went through a lot of meat. We ended up needing that kudu cow for bait as well. So in the end, in exchange for using that PAC buff cow on day one, I ended up purchasing a domestic cow for the council. Cost me $350 IIRC. I have no idea how big the purchased cow was as I never saw it.

Who is the PH and the Outfitter? Name names please. We're not looking for a witch hunt either-just the facts.

Cal asked a question about a practice and whether anyone had heard of anything like the practice before. Then everyone wants to know who the outfitter is. What difference does it make? The practice was specified in the contract, so it was disclosed up front. Is it just everyone's prurient interest? Why is it relevant who the outfitter is?

Having hunted in Zimbabwe for many years, I have never heard of this.

Normally, any animal shot we can use the meat of any way we wish. Such as bait, food or biltong.

Elephant meat was usually sold to the croc farm.

The above is also true of all our hunts in Tanzania.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Is it just everyone's prurient interest? Why is it relevant who the outfitter is?

I think most of those who are asking are doing so because they would like to cross that outfitter off their list.

The general response so far indicates this practice is not normal and as it is being mentioned for what appears to be the first time, there are two possibilities:

1. There has been a recent change in the wildlife legislation in Zim that nobody knows about;

2. The outfitter is trying to pull a fast one.

I'm betting on the second possibility.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
The general response so far indicates this practice is not normal and as it is being mentioned for what appears to be the first time, there are two possibilities:

1. There has been a recent change in the wildlife legislation in Zim that nobody knows about;

2. The outfitter is trying to pull a fast one.

I'm betting on the second possibility.

Exactly.

That is why we need more details too.

A couple of outfitters (I could name them) Have a deal with the council whereby all meat is to be sold at the 'joint venture' butchery.

this means that everything the client eats or shoots is money comming out of the 'butchery' till- and half the money is the councils. ...doesn't apply to Zebra since locals don't eat Zebra but does apply to anything else.

Last time I did a hunt for said operator, what was used in camp was paid for by the camp and covered by the daily rate - we were not hunting cats so...don't know.

Whith operator margins being squeezed ever smaller I am not surprised that 'all' costs now appear on the bill- one of the reasons I retired

Sounds like a rip-off to me... Wouldn't mind if I could get $5/kilo for meat from my clients' animals though... Need to have a talk to my butcher... I thought I did we'll when he offered me $2/kilo!

JBrown: Exactly! That shouldn't have been a hard one to figure out.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Is it just everyone's prurient interest? Why is it relevant who the outfitter is?

I think most of those who are asking are doing so because they would like to cross that outfitter off their list.

Amazing . . . folks know ONE, count them, ONE fact, and they are prepared to cast judgment. Sometimes this is an amazing site, other times, not so much.

[Actually, we know TWO facts, the contract provided for the charge, but the fact that the contract provided for the charge and therefore the charge was known in advance is actually viewed as an irrelevant fact, so we are back to ONE.]

It's like those damned TV people selling sponsorships to earn a living and continuing to stay in business. You get the torches, I'll grab the pitchforks!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
It's like those damned TV people selling sponsorships to earn a living and continuing to stay in business. You get the torches, I'll grab the pitchforks!!!!

I am a capitalist through and through. Outfitter can charge for it if the market will bear. Client can opt to hunt elsewhere if he chooses.

If people don't like commercialism on their hunting shows...they can quit watching them. Pretty soon economics will dictate a change.

All sorts it self out in the end with capitalism.

Therefore...if the company openly stated the above in its contract...they are obviously not trying to hide..nothing wrong with Cal telling us who it is.

Then those that think it is fair can use them if desired and those who think it is a rip-off can look elsewhere.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

The contract states if meat is used it is charges at 5$ per Kilo.


I don't believe this was told upon signing the contract--just now as the final payment is due. Cal

These 2 separate comments from Cal's original post have me confused.

Am I missing something? Or does it indicate the clients didn't bother to read the contract?

quote:

Originally posted by jjbull:
[D]oes it indicate the clients didn't bother to read the contract?

Sounds like it.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Is it just everyone's prurient interest? Why is it relevant who the outfitter is?

I think most of those who are asking are doing so because they would like to cross that outfitter off their list.

Amazing . . . folks know ONE, count them, ONE fact, and they are prepared to cast judgment. Sometimes this is an amazing site, other times, not so much.

[Actually, we know TWO facts, the contract provided for the charge, but the fact that the contract provided for the charge and therefore the charge was known in advance is actually viewed as an irrelevant fact, so we are back to ONE.]

Mike
I was just stating my opinion on why I thought folks want to know who the outfitter is.

The truth is that the outfitter has to make a living and charging for the meat means that his prices should be lower on other items(assuming this is stated upfront).

It does seem like you are always jumping on my posts, and I can't really see why. I thought you were better than that. Apologies if I am misreading your post.

Jason,

I tend to be too fast on the keyboard and as a result end of saying things sometimes I should not. I apologize if you took offense, I certainly did not intend to offend. I guess my point was simply that sometimes, as Dave suggested, we can all be a little too quick to condemn or hang without a good understanding of the totality of the circumstances. I put myself in that camp too.

Are people jumping to conclusions and/or condemning or are they simply wanting information?
It certainly happens around here.

Personally, I have gone on too many safaris which are not priced in this manner to want to go on one that does price in this manner. I doubt I will ever book a hunt priced this way. I want to know for my own information not to persecute someone.

I can certainly see how a pricing scheme such as this can come about. There is more competition for the areas available with the Botswana issues, the Zambia issues and TZ pricing themselves in the stratosphere. If they need to do this to make things work out for them financially, fine. I get it, just not for me personally.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Are people jumping to conclusions and/or condemning or are they simply wanting information?

Yes.

All I care is that I know about any and all charges up front, so that I will know the all-in price and can make an informed judgment.

Any outfitter, and any one in business for that matter, has to be competitive and make a profit both. And Zim has seen some recent upward pressure on prices.

Is it normal? No.

Is it unusual. Yes.

Is it possible? Absolutely. In one area of Moz, I know using the animal is frowned upon for bait. It a "community thang", they want the meat!

It's entirely likely that this is a specific agreement between the operator and the local council. If its in the contract, then there is little room for questioning it. If not, asking "why" is not unreasonable.