There are two possibilities for the short term future of canned lion shooting in South Africa;
1. Kortbroek van Schalkwyk may pull his finger out of his arse, like shakari wants, and quickly add lion to the list of “large predators†in the TOPS regulations. This will effectively stop canned lion hunting.
2. Or Kortbroek can keep on dragging his feet and not add lion to the list of “large predators†for some considerable [but undefined] time. This will let canned lion shooting continue.

Help me think through all the longer term consequences of him doing one or the other. I’m not asking for specific advice, for or against some action. I just want to know how the one or other action affect (i) the true ethical lion hunters and honestly free ranging lion populations in other parts of the continent. (ii) the anti-hunting brigade (iii) other canned hunting in South Africa and other parts of the continent? Please describe how does the your logic reasoning really work in terms of; if this happend then the following will result, which in turn will result in and so on .............. until we have a clear understanding of what the consequenses of action (i) and (ii) will be.


While talking of canned shooting; Can anyone explain the difference between two scenarios? Shooting any animal described as a fully mature ‘trophy specimen’ in a fenced enclosure into which it was recently released is regarded as ‘canned shooting’. If a young male animal is released into an enclosure and it grows over a period of a few to many years into a trophy there, I can associate myself with hunting it a few years after it's release as a trophy. Please tell me how, if the released animal is regarded as a full trophy animal when released to be shot is (i) a trophy kudu or other trophy antelope it is deemed OK and talked of as hunting. But (ii) if the animal is a big maned male trophy lion, it is regarded as not OK and is called canned shooting? Please note that I specifically give no information about where the two animals grew up, in a cage or on an extensive area, that is not part of the question.

Thanks to those clear thinkers for sharing your understanding of this important issue with everyone.

Andrew NcLaren

Andrew, I am a neophyte, but I think that the major difference in my mind is that the lion is classed as dangerous game. If it is no longer dangerous, then it is indeed just like the kudu you mentioned. There is a famous video somewhere that shows a (canned) lion charge, and once he gets there, he really doesn't know what to do! So, if the lion is not DG then it looses its mystique for many. This of course opens up another can of worms ie. for an animal to be DG then there has to be an element of danger to the hunter, so, the method of hunting comes into play ie. on the ground, tracking etc. not shooting from a tree, vehicle etc.
Just my 2 cents, from a wannabe.
Peter.

After completing my first plains game hunt in SA,I was to travel with the PH to do some trout fishing near Dullstroom.On the way back we were near Hartebeestfontain,where he was to drop salt off for another PH in the same company.They were doing canned hunts there...

Its an odd thing to see pens of lions (about 60),and seeing a client negotiate a price for the one he wanted.....

Another "hunter" had killed a lioness that morning,and was doing trophy pictures.They "hunted" on about 1000 acres....

It just don't seem like hunting to me,watching a guy from Cleveland bragging like he was Tarzan,slaying the great beast.Nice enough fellow,and we had a conversation about the shoot.But they dart the cats there,to reduce cances of injury to the client,he didn't care in the least....


How much DG is that?

We went on our way,and frankly never talked to the outfitter again.Just left a sour taste in my mouth...

Some months later,one of the workers was snagged on the fence inside the pens,and was killed...didn't discover the body(or what was left)till the next day..

Then a SA actress,who was a star in a soap opera,reached in to pet the nice kitties.A lioness grabbed here hand,caught her ring on a finger, and tore her finger off.Ouch!


If you get to pre pickout the target,it ain't hunting...

If you drug it,it ain't hunting...

If the area is small,and the cat has never seen it,it ain't hunting either....

But there will ALWAYS be someone who will want to take the easy way out...

That was my introduction into canned hunting.I know I will never afford the real deal.But I know I won't participate in a canned hunt either...



Dan

IMHO, canned lion hunting gives the antis more justifiable cause to motivate the public against our way of life than anything else we could possibly do. We're shooting ourselves in the foot by tolerating canned Lion hunts and by taking young males.

Lion was the last of my Big 5 and I was offered RSA hunts but repeatedly turned them down because the idea of a canned Lion is anathema to me. I simply couldn't do it, no more than I could shoot the young male lion I saw in the Selous while on a dedicated Lion hunt. I was told by my PH I could take him if I wanted as he was out of spots. Hell, he was still running with his Momma! I went home without my Lion after 21 days and a lot of $$$, but I still had my integrity. That was 2001. I finally got my wild, old, huge, bush Lion on day 11 while on a 21 day safari in Zambia in 2004.

Lion has spiritual and emotional ties around the world. Second only to the Elephant. I am in total agreement with recent moves in the hunting community to limit PHs to selecting out only mature Lion for clients. We have seen Lion hunting halted periodically in some African countries and I believe it is within the realm of possibility that we could see it stopped entirely. That would be a tragedy but if and when it happens, canned hunts will have played a part.

Rant off.

Good rant...

I believe the canned shooting issue is the biggest threat to African hunting and the African hunting industry in existence today and if it isn't banned completely, sooner or later the antis are use it as a big club to beat us over the head with.......... So, not only do we need to deal with it because it's immoral and unethical, we also need to deal with it to protect ourselves, our sport and the animals we all hold so dear to us, because if we don't, we'll end up with no sport which in turn will surely mean no animals. I'll add that I believe there's an immense difference between PG and DG (in this case, Lions) and that very different rules should apply.

The problem with defining a classification is that as soon as you do, someone will look for ways to meet the letter of the definition but avoid the spirit of it. Therefore (IMO) if you're gonna do it, you need to do it right. Although I appreciate these things require a great deal of thought, my initial opinion is:-

(IMO) Although it's a shame there are people amongst us that mean we have to make rules such as this, there's no doubt they're there and because of that, we need to police them. Therefore, we need to be fairly radical about the rules and definitions.

I personally believe that we should classify 'canned Lions' as any Lion that has been born, raised or ever held in any kind of captivity for any appreciable amount of time. I'd add that the old stipulation that no Lion may be hunted in SA unless it's been self sustaining for at least 2 years. (the original proposal). Also a minimum stipulated area, but I'd leave the fundis to set the size of the area because I don't consider I know enough about it. - But I'd make it helluva big.

Effectively, this would ban pretty much ALL Lion hunting except in areas that border the parks........ and I don't have a problem with that at all. Ideally, I'd also like to see an age and sex requirement and a rule that only Lions that are not holding a pride or are holding a pride that doesn't have any dependent cubs may be hunted. I would of course also like to see a ban on any kind of drug etc. - I'd also suggest extremely severe penalties for outfitter, PH AND client should the rules be broken.

The canned Lion operators presented a report to the Government stating all kinds of BS including they contribute to the wild gene pool with their operations. As far as I'm concerned, that report is utter tripe and should be completely ignored.

I'd also encourage individual hunters and hunting organisations to persue a name and shame policy on people who do take part in this shameful practice. There's a vid on the NE forum now showing a guy (I'd guess a spaniard) bow shooting a Lion that's drugged up to his eyeballs. I'd personally like to see someone track that bastard down and tie him to a tree for Leopard bait!

IMO Mr Van Schalkwyk needs to stop pussyfooting around and put an immediate and complete stop to this disgusting and disgraceful practice.

How's that for nailing my colours to the mast!

quoting Shakari :

There's a vid on the NE forum now showing a guy (I'd guess a spaniard) bow shooting a Lion that's drugged up to his eyeballs. I'd personally like to see someone track that bastard down and tie him to a tree for Leopard bait!

canned bowhunt of a "junkie-lion"

Thanks jbd! I just watched the video. I almost turned it off in the middle. It was SAD for many reasons. I agree with Shakari's sentiments entirely, although I wonder where the boys are who claim that hunting ethics are up to the individual. The only saving grace is that this guys buddies will probably wind up seeing this, and the comments posted!
Peter.

Ethics of individual hunters is always going to be a thorny issue and I usually try not to comment too much on it, but I feel that canned hunting, esp such blatent canned hunting as this case, goes beyond individual ethics and goes into the realms of an immoral act and to me, that client deserves to be hunted down by the hunting organisation of whatever country he's from and hounded, named and shamed to the maximum extent possible.

Frankly, I'd prefer to see Lion hunting completely banned in the entire country rather than allow a single episode of that kind of thing happen.

Other than that, I don't let it upset me!

The majority of people in the world are not hunters, but most are not against hunting when it's used ethically as a true legitimate conservation tool. Raising lions with the sole intent of killing them has nothing to do with conservation! It's all about money, greed and what some people will do to make it. Canned lion hunts have done more to hurt the reputation of the South Africa hunting industry than any anti hunting group ever could!

I don't care if it's lions, kudu, or whitetail deer. Imo the hunting of pen raised animals is ruining the sport of hunting.

Steve,

I agree with you on the hunter should be shamed to maximum extent possible. But, what about the PH and the outfitter who provided this sickening mess. This hunter may have been dumb as a fence post. I have met some that are so gullible, they think this is the only way to hunt.

It is truly sad this has happened but it goes on year after year in S. Africa with lions. As long as money to be made it will continue.

In New Zealand it is the same with Red Stags. They raise them in small paddocks and only put them in these 5000 ac. fenced in areas just days the hunters get there. Everyone knows that World record stag was raised in fenced enclosure and only turned loose days before the hunter got there.

In my opinion and it only a guess, you have two things involved here in canned hunting. Money to be made by your PH and ego by the hunter.

I live to hunt; not hunt to live

Brooks,

I agree with you completely, but the guy selling the hunt knows what he's doing and doesn't care and isn't even a member of the PHA, so can't even be disciplined that way - The only way he can be stopped is if the Government put him and his ilk out of business.

The client on the other hand can be named and shamed and by so doing, he'll be unlikely to either do it again or recommend it to anyone else.......and is at least one less potential customer for the seller.

Whilst I accept this kind of thing mostly happens within SA, there's nothing there to prove it was definitely inside SA and it's not impossible it was outside the borders of the country. Believe me, this could have happened elsewhere.

What a @#$% up video! What got me the most, was the music! Pretensious shit! And shakari, I think it was SA, the PH was definately South African

Karl,

I agree, the PH was certainly South African and as I said, the hunt almost certainly did take place in SA, but my point was, there's nothing in the video that absolutely proves where the shoot took place.

Let's face it there's been occasional discussion on the forums of Lion hunts being offered (just)outside the borders of SA where no Lions have existed for donkey's years. I won't name them for the obvious reason, but I'd guess you spotted them the same way I did.

quote:

that client deserves to be hunted down by the hunting organisation of whatever country he's from and hounded, named and shamed to the maximum extent possible. Mad

I agree with what is being said, but I do wonder why we don't seem to follow this advice here in this forum. I believe the last time a canned lion was posted on here all we read were congratulations from the gallery.

Jason

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Let's face it there's been occasional discussion on the forums of Lion hunts being offered (just)outside the borders of SA where no Lions have existed for donkey's years. I won't name them for the obvious reason, but I'd guess you spotted them the same way I did.

Steve,

I agree with you 110% on the action that should be taken to stop this and the consequences of not doing so.

The thing is that most foreign hunters would not really have a clue about the occurance of wild lion populations. On top of that if someone doesn't necessarily think they are hunting a pen raised lion then the practice can go on in many guises.

There was a post a couple of years back here about the guy that gets offeed the possibility of a cattle killing lion just over the border while on his RSA safari. They get up in the mng, and drive accross to find the beast and shoot it.

What they don't realise is that the Lion was crated over put out on the land and had a couple of guys keeping tabs on him for the day until the hunter got there.

I've had conversation with a guide once who offered me a 48"buffalo that was no longer part of the breeding herd. Apparently he was a very bad tempered buffallo that kept charging the cars etc... Would I like to come over and shoot him? The guide was happy for me to keep the horns as well which I was supposed to see as a great boon. As a joke I asked him if he could get me a photo with the measurements at which point he asked for my email... I never spoke to him again, nor did he get my address.

My point is that the whole canned thing goes further than just lions. I had a great hunt in RSA first time round and will be going there for some wingshooting in May, (mainly to see Dennie) but I don't think the hunting industry there is doing itself any favours.

Rgds,
FB

+1 Jason

If you look at the bottom right hand corner of the video the name of the outfitter is boldly displayed!! Enough said

Jason

+1 more

FB

+1