Don't ban Lion trophy imports

http://www.thecitizen.co.tz/Ne...kvaknuz/-/index.html

You need to read this and send it on. Tanzania has done everything to support and sustain regulated Lion hunting. And France has bypassed CITIES and the EU studies and recommendations for Tanzania, Zambia and Mozambique.

More important is the decline of wildlife due to lack of finance derived from safari hunting and that this activity is the major contributor to conservation.

The West, in general, are unwittingly helping the bloody Chinese in supporting poaching and eliminating wildlife in Africa!

It never stops, their stupid attitude is "we know what is better for you than you do"!

quote:

It never stops, their stupid attitude is "we know what is better for you than you do"!

I'm quite sure that is a lot of it, but I think it is more emotional, it makes them feel good to think they saved something.
Maybe even find a way to make some money off of it along the way.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

It never stops, their stupid attitude is "we know what is better for you than you do"!

I wish I could disagree. Worse yet, we advocate for participation in international groups and not standing alone on issues but standing shoulder-to-shoulder with the international community. So we participate in a group like CITES . . . but then proceed to reject the conclusions of the international community because we know better . . . making us duplicitous as well.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Don't ban Lion trophy imports

http://www.thecitizen.co.tz/Ne...kvaknuz/-/index.html

You need to read this and send it on. Tanzania has done everything to support and sustain regulated Lion hunting. And France has bypassed CITIES and the EU studies and recommendations for Tanzania, Zambia and Mozambique.

More important is the decline of wildlife due to lack of finance derived from safari hunting and that this activity is the major contributor to conservation.

Andrew,
While I am in full support of NOT banning lion imports and work diligently to fight closure...the fair and balanced news is that Tanzania was drug to where it is today kicking and screaming.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

It never stops, their stupid attitude is "we know what is better for you than you do"!

I wish I could disagree. Worse yet, we advocate for participation in international groups and not standing alone on issues but standing shoulder-to-shoulder with the international community. So we participate in a group like CITES . . . but then proceed to reject the conclusions of the international community because we know better . . . making us duplicitous as well.

Mike - Isn't that the democratic way? Don't worry folks, we know what's best for you - we'll take care of it for ya. Your simple mind can't grasp the concept, so we got ya covered!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
The West, in general, are unwittingly helping the bloody Chinese in supporting poaching and eliminating wildlife in Africa!

It never stops, their stupid attitude is "we know what is better for you than you do"!

Aint that the truth !

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:


It never stops, their stupid attitude is "we know what is better for you than you do"!

Not that it doesn't happen across the board in some regards, but that absolutely is the liberal creed.

If I had $20 for every time I had said that same thing over the past 25 years we could both go on safari.

quote:

Originally posted by bwana cecil:

quote:

It never stops, their stupid attitude is "we know what is better for you than you do"!

I'm quite sure that is a lot of it, but I think it is more emotional, it makes them feel good to think they saved something.
Maybe even find a way to make some money off of it along the way.

Unfortunately it becomes a self-fulling prophecy. Ban hunting and imports in the name of animal welfare and conservation, and when numbers drop at an accelerated rate post-ban, the conclusion is “had we just implemented the ban sooner, we wouldn’t be in such a dire situation – so let’s not make that mistake again”

It is encouraging to see an African Government take a stance. Maybe the way forward is indeed from Africa at a grass roots level?

The anti's goal is to stop hunting no matter what.

If it destroys the animals they don't care they have stopped hunting.

It also fits into their anti firearms role no hunting no need to own lots of firearms.

They work hand and hand

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
The West, in general, are unwittingly helping the bloody Chinese in supporting poaching and eliminating wildlife in Africa!

It never stops, their stupid attitude is "we know what is better for you than you do"!

Saeed,
I fully agree with you on this.
It is no different than OPEC and the West giving Saudi Arabia a free pass to destroy the energy business while attempting to bankrupt Iran and Russia.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
It is encouraging to see an African Government take a stance. Maybe the way forward is indeed from Africa at a grass roots level?

My friend there is a whole undercurrent driving this TZ to France statement that has nothing to do with a "grass roots movement" and everything to do with money.

Ledvm,
Everything has to do with money...
Sad but reality.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
Ledvm,
Everything has to do with money...
Sad but reality.

You are preaching to the choir here sir. As a child...my Dad drilled the Golden Rule into my head.

The Golden Rule: "He who has the gold...makes the rules."

So to clarify Dogcat...if you want to understand my statement...follow this old adage as well. Follow the money! Then all will become clear as to what I was eluding to.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Don't ban Lion trophy imports

http://www.thecitizen.co.tz/Ne...kvaknuz/-/index.html

You need to read this and send it on. Tanzania has done everything to support and sustain regulated Lion hunting. And France has bypassed CITIES and the EU studies and recommendations for Tanzania, Zambia and Mozambique.

More important is the decline of wildlife due to lack of finance derived from safari hunting and that this activity is the major contributor to conservation.

Andrew,
While I am in full support of NOT banning lion imports and work diligently to fight closure...the fair and balanced news is that Tanzania was drug to where it is today kicking and screaming.

You 'fight closure' - but hail Craig Packer - who proactively and deliberately assists that same closure???

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
The West, in general, are unwittingly helping the bloody Chinese in supporting poaching and eliminating wildlife in Africa!

It never stops, their stupid attitude is "we know what is better for you than you do"!

I was not aware that France was considered the west, or possibly it never occurred to me. Could someone clarify this please?

Well, it's sorta west of Germany so...

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Don't ban Lion trophy imports

http://www.thecitizen.co.tz/Ne...kvaknuz/-/index.html

You need to read this and send it on. Tanzania has done everything to support and sustain regulated Lion hunting. And France has bypassed CITIES and the EU studies and recommendations for Tanzania, Zambia and Mozambique.

More important is the decline of wildlife due to lack of finance derived from safari hunting and that this activity is the major contributor to conservation.

Andrew,
While I am in full support of NOT banning lion imports and work diligently to fight closure...the fair and balanced news is that Tanzania was drug to where it is today kicking and screaming.

You 'fight closure' - but hail Craig Packer - who proactively and deliberately assists that same closure???

Alas...you will never learn!

quote:

Originally posted by Full Roar:

I was not aware that France was considered the west, or possibly it never occurred to me. Could someone clarify this please?

It sure isn't the East!!!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Don't ban Lion trophy imports

http://www.thecitizen.co.tz/Ne...kvaknuz/-/index.html

You need to read this and send it on. Tanzania has done everything to support and sustain regulated Lion hunting. And France has bypassed CITIES and the EU studies and recommendations for Tanzania, Zambia and Mozambique.

More important is the decline of wildlife due to lack of finance derived from safari hunting and that this activity is the major contributor to conservation.

Andrew,
While I am in full support of NOT banning lion imports and work diligently to fight closure...the fair and balanced news is that Tanzania was drug to where it is today kicking and screaming.

You 'fight closure' - but hail Craig Packer - who proactively and deliberately assists that same closure???

Alas...you will never learn!

Well is he the one USFWS listens to or not?

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Full Roar:

I was not aware that France was considered the west, or possibly it never occurred to me. Could someone clarify this please?

It sure isn't the East!!!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Don't ban Lion trophy imports

http://www.thecitizen.co.tz/Ne...kvaknuz/-/index.html

You need to read this and send it on. Tanzania has done everything to support and sustain regulated Lion hunting. And France has bypassed CITIES and the EU studies and recommendations for Tanzania, Zambia and Mozambique.

More important is the decline of wildlife due to lack of finance derived from safari hunting and that this activity is the major contributor to conservation.

Andrew,
While I am in full support of NOT banning lion imports and work diligently to fight closure...the fair and balanced news is that Tanzania was drug to where it is today kicking and screaming.

You 'fight closure' - but hail Craig Packer - who proactively and deliberately assists that same closure???

Alas...you will never learn!

Well is he the one USFWS listens to or not?

You are correct my friend! That is why I tried to put him squarely on our side before SCI alienated him...hence my words...you will never learn.

I think you screwed-up pretty badly there Lane - you backed the wrong horse with Packer.

Would you care to detail your interactions with SCI over this LCTF business?

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
I think you screwed-up pretty badly there Lane - you backed the wrong horse with Packer.

Would you care to detail your interactions with SCI over this LCTF business?

I have detailed it many time Matt. How many times does it take for you to grasp it???

And...I did not back any horse...I was doing what was right for conservation and hunting. Only SCI screwed up.

And this is from someone who hunted ele earlier this year hoping USF&W would lift the ivory ban!

I tell you what Matt! Why don't you fix the problems in your own country where ivory import has been impossible for quite some time. A country that also bans lion import...AND a country with significant gun control which under took confiscation! Matt you LOST in your country! So don't be pretending you know a G-d damn thing and bring our country down to your level.

Yes Lane - I do know about your bullshit meetings with 'SCI'.

Nice deflection on the Australia bit - but yes wildlife 'bans', prohibitions are very, very difficult, often impossible to overturn.

Guns? I own very many guns and have never lost one to a confiscation. Legal firearm ownership in Australia grows every year!! Hunter numbers in Australia - up, up, up... always UP.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Yes Lane - I do know about your bullshit meetings with 'SCI'.

Nice deflection on the Australia bit - but yes wildlife 'bans', prohibitions are very, very difficult, often impossible to overturn.

Guns? I own very many guns and have never lost one to a confiscation. Legal firearm ownership in Australia grows every year!! Hunter numbers in Australia - up, up, up... always UP.

Enlighten us on my bullshit meetings Matt! I am all ears!!!

Then tell us how many Benelli Super Balck Eagles you own or Browning A5s or 1911's or AR's. Australia is a very tightly "controlled" country.

The fact is...all of my correspondence with SCI was via e-mail, I never stated anywhere that we had a face-to-face except at the Banovich invitational only meeting in which Packer was the guest speaker and LCTF was invited (Aaron and I both attended).

I have all of the e-mail correspondence saved so go ahead and enlighten us about me.

SCI did string us along eluding to a meeting about "the Definition"...but one never materialized. In fact...they just cut-off communication. Then...when we (LCTF) failed to bring SCI on board...we lost Packer, Begg, and Hunter's support...subsequently we lost the interest of USF&WS.

Emails, failed meetings? That sounds like you f'd-up Lane.

Happy to engage you on Australian politics on another board - I am very active and quite conversant in that area!!

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Emails, failed meetings? That sounds like you f'd-up Lane.

Happy to engage you on Australian politics on another board - I am very active and quite conversant in that area!!

I stay out of Australia politics. You should do the same with the USA as you don't understand it all!

In regards to me f@cking up...well I sleep better at night knowing I tried. And...had SCI had more than 2 brain cells at the helm...we probably would have succeeded.

Your efforts don't go unnoticed or unappreciated and that includes many more members and their contributions.

I say good job to all who go above and beyond

Lane, I think you & Aaron did an admirable job.
I doubt Matt will care, but if I ever make it to hunt in Australia, it sure won't be with him.
Entirely too arrogant for me.

I agree with Matt. Physical evidence (emails, etc) needs to be posted showing SCI's lack of brain cells on this. At this point Lane just seems like a Packer fanboy and defending everything he has done.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Emails, failed meetings? That sounds like you f'd-up Lane.

Happy to engage you on Australian politics on another board - I am very active and quite conversant in that area!!

I stay out of Australia politics. You should do the same with the USA as you don't understand it all!

In regards to me f@cking up...well I sleep better at night knowing I tried. And...had SCI had more than 2 brain cells at the helm...we probably would have succeeded.

Don't waste your time Lane. Matt reminds me a lot of Trax who is the only person from AR to make my ignore list.

Just a troll - they make a lot of them down under.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

I stay out of Australia politics. You should do the same with the USA as you don't understand it all!

In regards to me f@cking up...well I sleep better at night knowing I tried. And...had SCI had more than 2 brain cells at the helm...we probably would have succeeded.

SCI is an international organisation - with Chapters around the world. It is far from perfect - but they 'have a go'.

quote:

Originally posted by bwana cecil:
Lane, I think you & Aaron did an admirable job.
I doubt Matt will care, but if I ever make it to hunt in Australia, it sure won't be with him.
Entirely too arrogant for me.

Of course I care. I care enough to post my thoughts here, at risk of being blasted - because hunting means an awful lot to me and I don't just mean my livelihood. I guess many other outfitters are smarter than me and stay anonymous or don't post at all (we know they are members/readers here) - or simply don't engage with those who see fit to tear down hunting organisations and indeed other hunters. I cant blame them. My apologies if I have ruffled feathers.

SCI has done nothing but brought SHAME on hunters by pursuing a policy of MINE IS BIGGER than yours!

It has single handily created a whole bunch of criminal brigade of PHs and clients whose sole purpose is to achieve this.

And what is worse, for the past few years when hunters came under the microscope, SCI has managed to distance themselves from doing ANYTHING to support hunters!

What a bloody bunch of utter idiots we have running that organization!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
SCI has done nothing but brought SHAME on hunters by pursuing a policy of MINE IS BIGGER than yours!

It has single handily created a whole bunch of criminal brigade of PHs and clients whose sole purpose is to achieve this.

And what is worse, for the past few years when hunters came under the microscope, SCI has managed to distance themselves from doing ANYTHING to support hunters!

What a bloody bunch of utter idiots we have running that organization!

All those outfitters attending SCI in February should hang their heads in shame.

Not all Matt.

But those who have an endless list of top SCI proudly displayed on their websites - with the same shameless, self glorifying idiots with big smiles.

The same people who have no clue what hunting actually is unless it glorifies their position among their elk in the SCI record book.

SCI has has lost the plot years ago, and have forgotten what a normal hunter enjoys.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Not all Matt.

But those who have an endless list of top SCI proudly displayed on their websites - with the same shameless, self glorifying idiots with big smiles.

The same people who have no clue what hunting actually is unless it glorifies their position among their elk in the SCI record book.

SCI has has lost the plot years ago, and have forgotten what a normal hunter enjoys.

Maybe a couple of outfitters I can think of... nothing more.

You are jumping at shadows.

quote:

Maybe a couple of outfitters I can think of... nothing more.

Maybe a couple of the bona-fide ones .... you can tell them apart from all the rest with brown noses.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Maybe a couple of outfitters I can think of... nothing more.

Maybe a couple of the bona-fide ones .... you can tell them apart from all the rest with brown noses.

Absolutely. A few booking agents too.

quote:

Originally posted by jeff32:
I agree with Matt. Physical evidence (emails, etc) needs to be posted showing SCI's lack of brain cells on this. At this point Lane just seems like a Packer fanboy and defending everything he has done.

Jeff,

Having negotiated the corporate legal world successfully for a quarter century now and doing a fair amount of legal work in the form of expert testimony...I am pretty savvy on what is kosher legally to do and not to do. And...thus far...I have seen no evidence to refute anything I have said...because it is the truth.

PS: I will add...in regards to Craig Packer...he wants the hunting blocks to succeed in TZ. Can you not infer that from the e-mail I posted.

He is well versed in Africa 9.0. He knows that hunting blocks equal habitat...lions need habitat and lots of it. He knows without game...hunting blocks are worthless and what does not pay does not stay. He knows that hunting blocks devoid of game will eventually have cattle and people on them which means NO LIONS ever to return.

At the same time...he knows that those blocks must also follow sustainable off-take and provide anti-poaching.

He is actually a quite reasonable and non-emotional scientist. We could have worked with the man and my opinion is that we would have been better off.