I just read today a magazine where a quite knowledgeable (so I thought) gunwriter wrote in answer to a question about the use of shotguns and buckshot on leopard follow-ups.

"lion hunters often wait until the charging cat is about 30 metres away and then fire a rifled slug from one barrel, and follow-up with buckshot if the slug doesn't stop him".

"However a lion isn't too large and it is soft skinned. Just what the results would be on a tough Cape buffalo, I can not say."

"But I am of the opinion that with a five-shot autoloading 12 gauge gun filled with rifled slugs one could stop any soft skinned big game animal in the world"

I'm interested to hear the experienced members opinions on these quotations above.

[ 08-16-2002, 23:39: Message edited by: NitroExpress.com ]

Come on Nitro....who wrote it? and where was it printed?

Using a shotgun as backup for cats is one of the most hotly debated topics out there. There have been enough reports of cats taking a round of buckshot and still having enough fight to remove scalps and eviscerate hunters that I would not consider a shotgun as adequate backup. I have NOT read any reports where a wounded, charging cat has taken a .375 or .458 slug to the noggin and kept coming.

You will get a lot of armchair ballistics �experts� expounding on the energy of a 12 gage full of buckshot. However I would rather rely on what has actually happened in the field as my teacher. Too many hunting reports have shown me that buckshot and cats do not mix.

Hell, if someone wants to follow up with a shotgun on cats, that�s their choice. I wish them will in their endeavors. However, I choose to never hunt with a PH that would attempt to keep a wounded cat off my ass with a shotgun. Since I am paying, it�s my decision. BTW - I have been there and shot four leopards and followed up on two other leopard hunts. While this does not make me an expert, I do have some experience with cats.

[ 08-17-2002, 00:42: Message edited by: Zero Drift ]

I have no problem with a PH packing a shotgun if he knows how to use it...Hoffman does and he faired well enough, I can't think of a better back up then George...Lots of PH like a shotty gun on Leopard..One waits until the last minute and blows the cats head off, simple as that. I prefer a double rifle, but I like to have both on the track....Just a flat out statement one way or the other is a little off center IMHO...but to each his own.

Like they say, more than one way to skin a cat.

I don't know how well buckshot penetrates flesh, but at thirty yards oo buck will only penetrate about 1/2 of the thickness of each pellet in a soft pine board. At ten feet it blows the board to splinters. I think I would want considerably more penetration if I were to take on dangerous game.

There is a lot of variation in how various shotguns pattern with various buckshot types. Few guns can hold a pattern at 30 yards. If you use buckshot beyond the gun's ability to pattern or your ability to place the shot, buckshot is not much good.

However, if you know your pattern and place the entire load in the vitals, buckshot is devastating. The pattern is small, so rifle sights help in placement.

Beyond the range of buckshot, Brenneke slugs do nicely. In fact, some say that is the best medicine to stop a bear charge.

A short, handy combat shotgun with ghost ring or patridge rear sight and large square post front sight should do the job if one is willing to learn how to use it.



This is not to suggest that I have used a shotgun on dangerous game, but based on a bit of knowledge about shotguns and buckshot, I have a strong suspicion that failures on dangerous game are not indicative of the weapon's capability.

[ 08-17-2002, 03:08: Message edited by: KLN ]

When I shot my Leopard in Zimbabwe my PH said he used a 3" 12 gauge (bore) with 0 or 00 buckshot. He related "finishing" two Leopards and one Lion with this method. He stressed letting them get close, VERY CLOSE. His theory was you actually had one shot as there would be no way to get in a second as they were dead or on you. I have been shooting 2 3/4" 00buck for "work" for over 30 years and up close it is amazingly lethal. Good Hunting, "Z"
P.S.Nitro, I like the smell of cordite "anytime".

John,

From these statements, I think this writer is a perfect candidate of "arm chair" safari type.

I wonder how much dangerous game he has hunted?

I would not even dream of shooting at a lion from 30 meters with a shotgun.

As Ray said he preferd his double, I personally would stick with my rifle and take my chance.

I can see that a lot of PHs might use a shotgun with large shot for very close follow up on wounded leopard.

But I can't imagine too many sane PHs choosing to use a side by side shotgun on wounded lion. And at 30 metres. Not more than once anyway.

As for the comment on an semi-auto shotgun loaded with five rounds of slugs, I wonder what the definition of "soft skinned" is here.

Has anyone done penetration tests on shotgun slugs? Even a 45/70 would beat them.

Saeed, I agree with your comments. This quotation was from a "ask the gun editor" type column, and was given as advice. This man has a vast knowledge of reloading, shooting etc but I think advice on dangerous game from the experienced members on forums such as Accurate Reloading is a better idea.

[ 08-18-2002, 15:41: Message edited by: NitroExpress.com ]

This crops up from time to time, and it always gets everybody's juices flowing in a hurry! Right here I will submit the writer of the article mentioned is, certainly, of the rocking chair veriety, and his opinion is a complete farce. 30 meters, indeed! I would venture, this joker has never seen a dangerous head of game outside a zoo! Also let me say here, that I do not have a lion, and have not followed one up, but I have seen the punishment they can take,from large rifles, at close range, and still get some of a hunters butt!You certainly will not see me useing a shotgun on a lion unless I have absolutely no other choice. I will say though a S/S that will place a pair of Brenneke slugs side by side @ 10 yds would certainly be better than a prayer!

This time seems to be no exception,with the juices, but let me say there a number of well known PHs who use a shotgun to follow up on Leopard,Hoffman is just one, but I don't know of, even one, who does this on lion! A lion may have soft skin, but the muscles just under that skin, are like strings of steel cable. To top this off, he is loaded with MEAN , and is quite willing to shred a hunter into strings, before he gives it up! The only thing that will stop him once he commits,is to be damaged so badly he cannot motivate! Brenneke slugs might do the trick, but Like Ray, and others, I'll take a double rifle every time!

Franz Coupe is one of the best known Leopard men in Zambia, and he uses a 3.5" 10 guage S/S double shotgun with 20" barrels, and fitted with express rifle sights. His contention is that at the range Leopard usually charge, the big ten is exactly the same as a 577NE double rifle with lead bullets, but far cheaper to buy, and feed. The loads at ten feet the pattern is a solid, all hitting in a pattern that is seldom over 2" in diameter.

I certainly don't envy anyone who is compelled to go into the grass with a wounded Leopard, or lion, no matter what gun he chooses. A wounded African lion, in the thick, where I can't see him, is the one thing on this Earth, tha scares the hell right out of me! Make that first shot on the cats a good one, or don't shoot, is my advice!

OK, the rocking chair is open! NEXT!

Mac

You will love this one.

Quite a few years ago a different writer - also an editor from a different magazine if I remember right - said the following. It was with regard to hunting water buffalo in the "top End".

The question was whether using a Nitro Express or similar double was a good idea on the big bovines.

He answered that he recommended a 458 Winchester Magnum in a good bolt action.

He also claimed that the recoil of a NE double pretty much negated the ability of the "claimed" fast second barrel shot, and that a practiced 458 bolt action shooter could get off shots "almost" as quick and had more rounds in the magazine as well.

Mac I'm sure you would LOVE these comments. And the blinding "logic".

Gentlemen.
Using a shotgun on leopard at 30 meters is way to far. 15 yards seems to be max on leopards and test targets. I use only 3" 000 nickel plated shot this gives a little better penetration. The old soft lead shot was all that was available in the distant past. I have been able to get off two shots when necessary with my old 870 Rem pump
this shotgun is much lighter and more maneuverability in hurry up situation. If you have a leopard coming for you in heavy grass
you must wait until he head is clear. Otherwise,
the heavy grass will deflect some of the shot.
I have never had a wounded leopard even get close to taking me out in these situations. Two things may account for this. I have been lucky and I have been very cautious. I do know that sooner or later no matter what system you use something
will happen that will get through your defences.
George

Hey George glad to see you back on the net! Hope your treatment is going OK in Arlington! I tried to call you at the hospital, but you had already been released! Get well buddy, we got some hunting to do!

From what I have read, if the PH has a double rifle he usually uses it, if he has a bolt rifle he seems to be more inclined to go to the shotgun. This may be [ya"ll that do this regular can reply to my assumption] because that in "close" quarters the shotgun is powerful enough and shoots multiple shots much faster than a bolt rifle. Same reason it was used in trench warefare. I once saw a "leopard follow up gun" that was a short double bbl. 12 gauge with an SKS spike bayonet welded to the bbls. the theory being, I guess, that if two shots did not stop the charge the bayonet might allow you to "stick him on the jump" and pin him down far enough away from your body for someone else to get off some shots. Shasa Kimel [sp?] killed several Jaguars in South America with a spear, so maybe that idea had merit?

Having never hunted cat,please excuse this question if its been answered before.I understand the idea of buckshot with deer as here in VA.But up close like you all have said with the cats why not "slugs",as close as your talking the buckshot isn't spreading,and it seems to me the slug would do the same,what i am missing?

Its spelled Semel, I did a little looking and old Shasa, is a relative of mine on my fathers side. Maybe thats where I get my hunting habits from, since nobody else in my family hunts. From what I have been able to find out, Shasa was a different kind all together. Hunting with a Spear, they did that in Germany for Boar, so he adapted it for Jaguars. Well Jaguar hunting for the most part is finished, You can't bring one into the US, so there would be no real point to it. The Matto Grasso was a much wilder place back then.

/

This shotgun bashing for leopard and lion use is a new phenomina. In Jack O'Connor's day it was the preferred way to deal with wounded cats in the thick stuff or in the dark where shots would be close. Close range is the intended purpose as that was the expected range at which they would see the cat. When did the shotgun suddenly become so weak for use against big cats. These bear protection people in AK had better wise up and throw the shotguns in the river.

I know of a ph in Zimbabwe who uses a
fn-fal 308 in full auto for going in after wounded leopard.

MacD37, people obviously shot at deer past the practical range of buckshot. That's why I say close range, very close range where the cat will be. I know my older broher and father shot their first deer in the fifties with buckshot and only one pellet hit each deer and those single pellets both exited.

I remember as a teenager lapping up African hunting stories from an old ex soldier who had served in Kenya during the Mau Mau troubles. He claimed he used am old WW1 trench shot gun for wounded leopard using heavy shot. He explained the reason why was that he was able to fix a bayonet on it as a last ditched line of defence!
To this day, I never know whether he was pulling my leg or being serious!

I won't make any comment on the suitablity of shotguns for lion , but Mac , I have shot slugs thru alot of different shotguns and my experience is that most any repeating shotgun or single barrel break action will do alot better than 10 inch groups at 35 yards . Probably the average is more like 6 to 8 inches at 50 yards , and most would probably do better if there were some sort of decent sights in place. Mac , I think you were already exeriencing a massive flinching problem from your buckshot tests when you fired the slugs ?

Here in Ohio we are slug only for deer. 6" at 50 yds is probably about right for the average 12 ga. As for penetration, I have only recovered one slug from a whitetail; all the rest were straight through. The one I did recover was from a button buck taken at about 80 yds. He was facing me straight on, and I shot a touch high. The slug entered at the base of the throat into the high cavity, angled upward, and removed about 12 inches of spine before lodging in the spinal canal below the diaphram. Certainly, a young whitetail is no cat, but that is my experience with slug penetration, for what its worth

Mac ------my comments were applied to run of the mill bird or goose guns with forster or brenneke slugs . Rifled barrel with sabots are in a whole nother class ......

T,

I think that must be the fellow I took my leopard with in Zimb. last summer. He had that FN-FAL and I had my .30-06 and we were tracking the leopard not knowing if we would find him or vice versa. Luckily, about 250 yards out we found a very dead leopard with a .308 Caliber hole through his lungs. I was glad not to get to see just how effective the FAL would have been!

Now for LION. I would not consider any buckshot load effective or appropriate for any wounded lion. Back in 1984 we had a French Client wound a lion in what was then called the Danakil Desert Hunting Area. The next day they went to try and find the cat and the PH took a model 12 Winchester with a 22" sawed off barrel and 00 Buckshot. When the cat came he shot too soon...way too soon and the cat was on him. He sort of fed it his left arm to protect his face and body or he wouldn't have lasted 2 seconds. Luckily Nassos Roussos had joined the party that morning and was able to push his .375 H&H past the PH's arm and take the back of the lions head off. Perhaps if the PH had waited until he was hand shaking distance from the lion he might have blown out its brains but it would take some one with better nerves than myself to pull that off. The PH is still without much strength in the arm the lion chewed on but that move probably saved his life.
Rich Elliott

Gentlemen

Funny thing happend today. My friend showed some pictures from his visit in Africa. His uncles seach/tracking weapon were very strange piece of equipmen

The gun were a O/U (FN B25 I think) with one rifled 12 ga shotgun barrel and a 9,3X74R rifle barrel. Like a combi. The 12 ga was ment to shoot heavy hardcast leadbullets loaded with brass shells. Has anyone seen such a gun and would it be proper for cats and other mean animals?