In another thread Socrates takes the position that a hunter who uses factory ammunition is less of a hunter than one who uses his/her own reloads. I'd like to pose that question to the group and rather than highjacking the other thread I'll post it here.
I disagree. The essence of hunting is: finding game, stalking game, and securing the game. The type of ammunition used to take the game is irrelevant. All that counts is that you place a round of sufficient power in the vitals of your prey. In fact, the actual shooting is arguably the least important skill in hunting. Those who can reliably find game and stalk into killing range are the best hunters. One can be an exceptional shot and be a poor hunter.
One might make the case that one who shoots reloads is a better shooter than one who only shoots factory ammo, but I don't think that I necessarly agree with that, as the key skills of shooting are; trigger control, sight alignment, breath control, etc, none of which have to do with the particular load involved.
Where reloading comes in, in my opinion, is in finding an optimal load, for a particular gun, which maximizes that gun's potential. That art, or if you prefer science, can aid a hunter or a shooter. It can add to the satisfaction of hunting and shooting, but it cannot replace the basic skills of hunting or shooting.
The essence of hunting is taking game, the essence of shooting is hitting your target. If you take game or hit the target with factory ammo, you are no less a hunter or shooter than he/she who does so with reloads.
Finally, speaking for myself, if I were about to follow up on a wounded Buffalo, lion etc. and I asked my PH what brand of ammo he was using, I'd rather hear Federal than " some reloads that one of my clients left behind".
Socrates, if I misinterpreted your comments than I apologize, if not, I respectfully disagree with you on this one.

Terry R

The notion that a person who doesn't load his/her own ammo is somehow less of a hunter is total, unadulterated BS. One of the best and most successful hunters I am acquainted with has never loaded a single round of ammo in his 70yrs of life, yet he is successful year after year in his pursuits, be they guided or unguided.
In all honesty, the best hunters I know are not gun nuts at all. Unlike some folks, they actually prefer time spent in the woods to shooting on a range or sitting in front of a computer and making ridiculous statements like the one that prompted this thread!

I don't think you have to be a reloader to be a good hunter. I reload and consider myself a better than average hunter. But - if I could afford to hunt more, I'd reload less and spend the time in the field. The new factory stuff is really good. Much better than when I became a reloader. They still don't make it as good as I do but the factory stuff works just fine.

Hunting with your own ammo is much more satisfying.

Reloading also opens up a whole new world of shooting...

But using handloads doesn't neccesarily make you a better hunter.

Terry - The person making this statement is a neophyte haunted by a serious affliction which causes them to pontificate grandiose statements based upon little understanding for the subject matter. These folks spout lots of regurgitated information and bizarre notions, unfortunately, they have no real experience beyond existing on the Internet. I would not take any of this to heart nor concern yourself further.

TerryR,

I read your post in the other post and started to respond then but Rusty stated it much more eloquently than I would have. I agree with you and, yes, I reload. Does that make me a better hunter? No! I enjoy reloading and it's just part of what I like to do. Do I cast my own Bullets? No! As Mac questioned, "Why bother"?
If one enjoys that aspect of the sport, do it. If it makes one feel superior, by all means do it as it's important to feel good about one's self.
Factory solids or Hardcast? It doesn't take John Taylor to tell you it doesn't matter when the only thing a person has personal experience "killing" is time.

Joe


Joe

TerryR,
I am a handloader first & foremost. If I had to use factory ammunition I would rather not hunt. But that is me. What works for me may not work for someone else. What works for them may not work for me. A person IS NOT less of a person or hunter because they use factory.

May I get of on a tangent for a minute? When I was in the navy we had a man (Willie) on my ship who was a hunter. We had another man (Pete) who was not. Willie used to harass Pete because he did not like hunting and tried to make him feel like less of a man for it. Pete told me he tried it with his dad when he was a kid and the blood bothered him. He told me if it was my thing, fine, he had no problems with that. It was just not for him. I had a tremendous amount of respect for Pete and we turned out to be pretty good friends. I had very little respect for Willie and considered him less of a person for harassing someone that way.

If I have to load my own ammo to hunt, does this mean that I also have to build my own rifle as well. I think that would be giving the animal an unfair advantage.

WyoJoe,

I believe it is this thread:

Hard Cast Bullets

Since I don't reload, I guess I will have to go around to each of my 28 African trophies and personally apologize for killing them with factory ammunition. I'm not looking forward to that, but I think it is the right thing to do. Then I'll call Russ Broom and cancel my safari, probably loose my deposit, but I can't go on safari with factory ammo. I think I'll sell my guns and concentrate on collecting knives. Hell, maybe I should just learn to make my own knives.

Regards,

Terry

Gentlemen,

Aren't we talking about different things here?

Hunting as such has nothing to do with what you use to shoot your animals.

What one gets out of reloading his own ammo, building his own rifles, making his own bullets, just adds to the whole enjoyment of the sport.

At least that is the way I look at it.

I can only hunt a few days a year, but I can spend many more days enjoying desiging and building my own rifles. And spend evem more enjoyable time developing specific loads for the animals I intend to hunt with it.

It just means more involvement, and to me at least, more enjoyment.

I have a 'thing' about using all of my own gear for both hunting and fishing and, if the situation allows, will always try and use my own handloads for hunting.

However, the notion that hunting with factory ammunition if a lesser form of hunting is nonesense. So long as the ammunition used is loaded to an acceptable level of hunting accuracy and is loaded with a suitable hunting projectile, for the game sought, then it doesn't matter if it is factory or handloads and has no bearing on the 'quality' of the hunt.

We hunters have enough 'enemies' who are trying to ridicule and destroy our sport without some of our own doing it for them. It is completely beyond me that some firearms owners can continue to attack and weaken our sport from within. We need to pull together and not argue amongst ourselves.

Me thinks Socrates is not as wise as his name implies.

PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING: THE NAME OF THIS SITE IS.... FILL IN THE ____________________ BLANK.

It's not Hunt Africa, it's not Safari.com. It's a RELOADING SITE!!!!!!

WWW.ACCURATERELOADING.COM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Got that? Did I get into those armor plated skulls?
I just get sick of you guys that hunt, but have never used cast bullets, down grading people that do, or blowing smoke out your ass about how cast bullets won't work on dangerous game

I don't care how many trophies you have on your wall, that still doesn't mean you are now an authority on ballistics, weapons, etc.

Being Socratic, I never claim to be an expert in any of the areas discussed, but I ask questions, and get answers, along with my own, owe so limited experience, and I get answers, like the 25 pages of stuff from a gunsmith that has designed and built a number of famous cartridges, that make me think maybe, just maybe, cast bullets are a great tool, being refined ever more.

Here are some pictures of buffalo taken with "ineffective cast bullets".

http://www.sixgunner.com/linebaugh/page2.htm
http://www.sixgunner.com/linebaugh/page3.htm

Gee, that guy looks like Ross Seyfried, the famous hunter/shooter/gundesigner. Guess you guys are all right.

Cast bullets don't work, that's obvious, ask the buffalo.

That said, I only said it made you less of a hunter/shooter because it really means to me you have very little knowledge, or intrest in attaining that knowledge(concerning the tools you use to kill), and, you should not let your lack of knowledge stop someone with the ability, patience, and skill to create adequate projectiles from doing so(Danny: you remember, the guy that the thread was about Terry? Not about you).

Therefore, that lack of knowledge, about the projectiles (you know, the little things that come out of the front of the gun?) that you seem to think is a wonderful attribute, makes you pale in comparision with people like our host, who not only is one of the best shots in the world, but also designs his own rifles, cartridges, bullets, and handloads.

Likewise, Terry, you come up wanting when compared to Ross Seyfried, at least in my eyes, when compared to someone that designs long range wildcats, helps design the most powerful handgun cartridges in the world, and then uses those cartridges to kill cape buffalo with.

So, yes, your lack of knowledge about cast bullets, when compared to others, with competency in these areas, makes you less of a hunter/shooter, with an emphasis on the shooter part. Doesn't mean you can't kill stuff.

Karamojo Bell, (you remember him right?), killed more elephants then maybe anyone alive. Oh, he used a little gun, but he could shoot, and he knew exactly where to place the bullet, and he knew exactly how that bullet would act, and he was lucky...Nope, guess you come up short there, Terry.

However, compared to me, you are a true winner, and hunter first class. I don't know how well you shoot, and mine varies depending upon how much time, and how healthy I am, but I'm sure you've killed more stuff then I have. Got over it at an early age, and realized I love the shooting, but not the killing.

Now my little story. I knew a guy who was a golf pro at the Olympic Club(San Francisco golf club that has hosted the PGA, and the U.S. Open a couple times,remember Jack Fleck, and Ben Hogan?). He had little if any clue about club design. He could, on a good day, drive with the long drive guys in the world, and, he played to a scratch handicap at the Olympic Club(for those that don't know, that's like a plus 2-4 anywhere else).

The odd part was he had a hard time finding a driver that worked. He would keep trying different drivers, and he'd hit the ball 360 yards, out of bounds. He was so good he could make a whippy, garbage, graphite shaft work for 16 holes, then boom, out of bounds.
(He was playing Cyprus Point one day, 2 under par, came to the 16th, on a windy day, and took a 9{it's a par 3} because he couldn't hit the driver straight into the wind, over water...)

Despite his skill, which compensated for his lack of club knowledge, he never went on tour, and never really did anything with his gift. Sure, he was a club pro, but he had tremendous strength, eye hand coordination, and could have been a truly great player.
6'2", a farm boy, and former college quarterback, he was an incredible athlete, and really reminded me of Mickey Mantle.
But, his pride stopped him from really getting that last final step, and becoming fantastic at golf. I really believe, with the right clubs, and a little practice, that this guy could have out played about 99% of the touring pros. He had it all, but the brain...

By the way, Terry, you might look at the number of people that cast, and reload their own ammo.

So far, in your "get back at Socrates thread", it's close to an even split, those that handload, and those that don't, and, those that agree with you, and those that don't.

In this site, famous for the mob mentality, that's pretty amazing, and enlightening, in itself.

Finally, Terry, please contact Paco Kelly. Tell him that elephant he shot with a cast bullet at 2300 fps really didn't die.


http://www.leverguns.com/[/URL]
http://www.leverguns.com/store/paco_book.htm
Terry, might read Paco's book. In particular the part about bonecrushers, and elephants...

You can also contact John Linebaugh, Ross Seyfried, Hamilton Bowen, Otto Candies, and tell them they are fools for using cast bullets, and for using them to kill large and dangerous game.
I'll provide links, if you really want to learn anything...
s

[ 05-12-2003, 11:48: Message edited by: Socrates ]

I don't see whether a person reloads or not is a reflection of how good a hunter they are...heck my grandfather took at least 50% maybe 75% of his game without a weapon at all, I know he was a far better than I ever will be...

I would however say that the fisherman who ties has own flies and catches fish on them is a better fisherman than one who doesn't though...

OK:
For the stubborn ones:
Saeed has 30-06 loads that group .1 inches, at 100 yards, IIRC.

So, if you know what to aim for, like K Bell, and, at 100 yards, can make the shot, you too, can kill, 10k elephant.

s

Socrates,

Unless I am mistaken, and I am sure somebody here will correct me if I am wrong, but Bell and the others who used the various small bores on elephant in those days, did so with military surplus FMJ ammo????

regards

Pete

I enjoy hunting with my handloads, but it doesn't make a better hunter of me. Probably makes a better marksman of me though, because I get to shoot a lot more through my handloading. I have friends who don't (or shouldn't be allowed to??) reload, who are better hunters than I am. It's just that I understand manufacturing procedures, tolerances etc. better than they do - that's why I end up removing all the stuck cases from their dies, I guess ..... I also enjoy the hobby, while they see reloading as a grind. Different strokes for different folks.

I have no problems with folk who hunt with cast bullets. I tried it, but just didn't have the patience to work through all the permutations, so I made a conscious decision to stick with jacketed bullets for my rifles. Come to think of it, I would love to start swaging my own (jacketed) hunting bullets.

I guess it's like the fisherman who ties his own flies - there is a certain satisfaction to making a quick clean kill with an accurate shot from a home-made cartridge. I really don't think it's about cost.

My 2c worth

Rikkie

Bigger shovels dig deep holes. Sometimes it�s best to simply remain silent after making asinine comments. Attempting to defend an ignorant statement only makes matters worse.

Interesting,... I never realized after all this time and days in the field,..I am not a hunter. If I had the time to reload, I could become one, but then I wouldn't have time to hunt. What a dilema. I would also have to learn to make arrows and bows. Interesting,...

Socrates

You might consider an anger management class.

I agree with you that hard cast bullets can be effective. They sure worked in a lot of big bores in the black powder days. However, the fact that someone doesn't agree with you seems to have set you off.

From your post, I take it that you don't hunt any more. You seem to indicate that you only shoot and reload. If so, I would take it easy on the rancor, since it appears a lot of your data must be third hand as to effectiveness.

I have reloaded all my life, and spent a lot of time at it. (I also build all my own rifes.) As I get older, and factory ammo gets better, I spend much less time doing it. Time becomes more precious for the actual hunting and field experience. Does that make me less of a hunter? Nope. I am a serious handloader (when I do it) and quite frankly am more knowledeable than 95% of the people involved. I just choose at this point in my life to concentrate on something else.

Chill out and go hunt or shoot with a lead slug and be happy. Don't worry about what anybody else does or thinks, it doesn't matter.

Socrates
My comments had nothing to do with cast bullets. That is the topic of the other thread. I purposly started this thread to discuss another issue that you raised in your discussion of hard cast bullets, that is if those who do not reload are less of a hunter than those who reload. A discussion of hard cast bullets is not relevant here unless you are now saying that those who do not hunt with hard cast reloads are less of a hunter than those who do.
My point is that hunting and reloading are two different things. One can be an exceptional hunter without being a reloader, and the fact that one is an exceptional reloader does not make hin a good hunter. Frankly different skills are necessary for hunting than are needed for reloading.
I do agree that those who take a trophy with their own reloads have a level of satisfaction that those of us who use factory ammo don't have. Also I believe that reloading has it's own rewards. Finding the optimal load for a particuler gun must be very satisfying.
Finaly, this isn't a "get back at Sorcates" thread. You made a comment that I felt was worthy of discussion. I'm not attacking you, I'm simply disagreeing with you.
Terry

Terry, to answer your question, being a non-handloader in no way, shape, or form makes anyone a lesser hunter than the most experienced and dedicated handloader going, nor does it make the non-reloader an inferior marksman.

I know a fair number of non-handloaders who are fantastic hunters and excellent riflemen who simply don't want to hassle with handloading. Their time is far more valuable to them than any cost savings that they'd realize by handloading. Some of these guys buy a new rifle, test a wide range of factory loads, settle on one or two that meet their requirements, buy a whole case lot of that preferred ammunition, then diligently practice with it plus hunt. When that case is gone, they order another one. These guys don't seem to suffer from lack of success, nor do they wimper that they wish they were into handloading.

Besides, factory ammo has gotten so good that you're not giving up anything in the way of bullet performance or even practical accuracy if you don't handload, contrary to various theories that get championed.......

AD

It sounds to me like Socrates has been wound up by coments regarding cast bullets, which are quite obviously dear to him.

Fine. I too get more satisfaction from my hunting with my own reloads rather than factory stuff.
But I don't think it has anything to do with hunting either.

One thing I find riducluous is the statement;

.475 Linebaugh 5 1/2 inch barrel
using a 420 gr. LBT cast bullet at 1350 fps. This load has about the same effect on
game as a .375 H&H or a .416 caliber rifle.

4350ft-lb - .375H&H
5100ft-lb - .416Rem
5700ft-lb - .378WBY
6621ft-lb - Lazzaroni Meteor 10,57 (.416)

1550ft-lb - .475Linebaugh

I don't doubt you can kill a buffalo with a .475Linebaugh or .454Casull, nor a .45-70 but I don't think that you could say the replicate the performance of the .375's or .416's

I'm not sure I understand the relevance of what Socrates says to ones self-image as a hunter. However, there is still much to be learned from Socrates, as the following will illustrate.

In ancient Greece, Socrates was reputed to hold knowledge in high esteem. One day an acquaintance met the great philosopher and said, "Socrates, do
you know what I just heard about your friend?"

"Hold on a minute," Socrates replied. "Before telling me anything I'd like you to pass a little test. It's called the Triple Filter Test."

"Triple filter?"

"That's right," Socrates continued. "Before you talk to me about my friend, it might be a good idea to take a moment and filter what you're going to say. The first filter is Truth. Have you made absolutely sure that what you are about to tell me is true?"

"No," the man said, "I actually just heard about it and..."

"All right," said Socrates. "So you don't really know if it's true or not. Now let's try the second filter, the filter of Goodness. Is what you are about to tell me about my friend something good?"

"No, on the contrary..."

"So," Socrates continued, "you want to tell me something bad about him, but you're not certain it's true. You may still pass the test though, because there's one filter left: the filter of Usefulness. Is what you want to tell me about my friend going to be useful to me?"

"No, not really."

"Well," concluded Socrates, "if what you want to tell me is neither true nor good nor even useful, why tell it to me at all?"

This is why Socrates was a great philosopher and was held in such high esteem.

It also explains why he never found out his best friend was banging his wife.

[ 05-12-2003, 22:42: Message edited by: Recono ]

I couldn't state my position any better than Zero Drift's last post. --- I have a buddy that is the best hunter I know. I am proud when he uses my reloads, 90% of the time he uses factory ammo, with a keen eye to the bullet being used. I can never be the hunter he is, the ammo being only a small part of the total picture. Give him a good bullet he can group in 5 inchs at 100 yards, and he will get his game in the worst of conditions. I fuss and shoot many loads, before calling a load final with a one hole group, he could care less about that small a group. He does listen to my reloading storys, and respects greatly the abilities of a good load, but does not reload. He totaly lacks the patience required to reload, the same energy that makes him a great hunter, where his patience is legendary, albeit a different patience. Bottom line, a great hunter buy not a reloader. Good shooting.

[ 05-12-2003, 23:36: Message edited by: phurley ]

Express:
One of the merits of hard cast slugs, with large diameters is they cut a large, straight, deep holes.
I think the argument is the effect is the same, provided shot placement is good, since the bullet will smash through, in a straight line, pretty much anything in it's way, including bone, etc.

The average inches of buffalo for Seyfried's 45 caliber, 345 grain hard cast bullet, at 1550, by the way, was 38".

The bullets broke shoulders, etc.

I think the best way of stating it is that with handguns, and low velocity rifle rounds, or giant game, nothing you can carry is going to cause any sort of shock. Therefore all you really have is a large punch press, pushing, we hope, straight, long holes in the animals you are trying to kill.

If you accept that premise, then a 475 Linebaugh has the same killing capacity as a 375 or 416. Perhaps more. Ray will tell you that the 500 grain bullets out of a 458 have noticeably more impact, and effect, then lighter bullets of the same caliber. While not going real fast, that 475 bullet is still huge, weighing 420 grains, and has a very large frontal area, considerably more then a 375 or 416. A 345 grain 45 caliber bullet is nothing to get hit with, either. Also, since the bullets are cast, they have a larger front flat area then anything, save monosolids.
They cut a big hole.

Terry: My remarks, originally, were aimed at the generic guy here that doesn't do his homework, and has little knowledge about cast bullets, yet is willing to tell others not to use something he has no knowledge of. It also shows a REAL lack of hunting history, and any real effort to learn about the equipment you are betting your life on.
In other words, you young whipper snappers ought to study and learn a bit more about what your elders have done, how they did it, and build on that.
Of course you don't have to. You have a professional hunter to bail you out.
Unlike Seyfried, who spent 2 weeks crawling around in thorn bushes before he shot that bull, with only a gun bearer behind, you have a professional hunter standing by with a powerful rifle, so that if what you take doesn't work, he can clean up your mistakes. I guess you might take more interest if your life depended on the pistol, and rifle you carried into the fray.

Recono: ROFL!!! That's quite similar to the dialogues. Which book was that taken from???

s

[ 05-12-2003, 23:44: Message edited by: Socrates ]

Socrates, I'm fine with what you say about the effectiveness of a big slow hard cast bullet moving through a buffalos' chest, but I do beleive that the added 100's of foot pounds a rifle delivers must account for something, (pressure on internal fluids?) even though they will not "shock" a buff to death...

I have a .454Casull and would very much like to try it out on a buffalo, I also have a 6PPC that generates about as much energy, but I certainly would not try poking a buffalo with it!

Seyfried also had a stopping rifle in his other hand while he was crawling around in the brush for two weeks! He might be crazy but he isn't stupid. All of this cast bullet BS doesn't impress or interest me at all. Other than the select few you mentioned who else goes elephant, buffalo or rhino hunting with cast bullets?
And so they used them and they worked, so what? I'll take my 450 Dakota with a good solid any day over some large caliber revolver, and I bet 99% of the PHs in Africa will to.
Also, are you infering that Seyfried was a "real man" or some all knowing saint because he was there by himself, while the rest of us are somehow cowards or thoughtless idiots because we have a PH behind us? If so, you might want to read the game laws and take note of the section dealing with non-resident hunters being REQUIRED to hire a PH. Seyfried was a PH so didn't have to worry over that little detail. I'm sure that many of us here would relish being able to do our own hunting without assistance or backup.

I see that we have diverged from the original post and are once again defending cast bullets for hunting applications. (Probably a good thing considering the merits of the original statement.) It is interesting that the cheerleader for this thought has little to no actual hunting experience, but then again, when did that stop anyone from pontificating.

While there is a truckload of regurgitated conjecture being tossed about here, how about something new - how about actual, personal field experience hunting with hard cast bullets. Who here has actual field experience hunting with cast bullets? Reading about someone who did it 30 years ago does not count.

I have cast bullets for a .45-70 Sharps so I guess that makes me a friggen genius. However, I certainly have no experience hunting with cast bullets and I would not consider doing so any more than I am considering hunting with a pointy stick.

We have made tremendous strides in bullet technology so there is little interest on my part to turn the hands of the clock back 75 years. If some of you guys want to dress up and act like Davy Crockett or Howdy Doody - more power to you. I�ll stick with modern technology thank you very much.

John S - I'm with you. I really don't care what folks did in the past. (Especially considering the poetic license taken with many a hunting story from the glory years) I want the option to use the latest, best technology available. I do not see this as being weak - only wise...

[ 05-13-2003, 00:57: Message edited by: Zero Drift ]

1. I agree that slow-moving cast bullets can be very effective on tough game as they penetrate well & have good frontal area.

2. I think that taking game with a handgun/bow/spear/rock is a challenging endeavor and is worthy of our respect as hunters as in general one must get closer than rifle range to take the shot (using good HUNTING skills).

3. I have no idea what being a handloader has to do with being a good hunter.

4. There seems to be some misplaced anger in this thread.

Best of two worlds...I am a reloader started when I was 14 years old with a Lee loader with a mallet
and little else but a book of reloading data..I am now 52 years old and have reloaded thousands of rounds...from little stuff up to 458 Lott ammo now..
Looking back quality control was not there nor premium bullets or premium ammo...I reloaded and bought premium ammo with my Steyr with reloads I can shoot .75 5 shot groups at 100yds. I bought Remington sirroco 165gr. and shot and identicial .75 groups...I love reloading and I find it rewarding when I can say I did it...myself....
But ammo makers realized that many also do not reload but desire and demand premium ammo nothing short of it...Casting bullets is an art and many are like I said I did it myself...However all of us have our limitations and whether or not we have to admit it...I have shot cast ammo but I never would try to make it..I realize my limitations and that is why this is such a hot topic it brings out all of our emotions and feelings...
A good hunter is made by practice and patience and mistakes...
A good reloader is made by practice patience and mistakes...
Isn't it great that we are all different...

Mike

Freedom is not Free

Mac said:

quote:

---

Sounds like you have been talking to yourself,but what you reccomend is good advice, why don't you do that! I would like to know how many Cape buffalo "YOU" have shot with a hard cast bullet of any caliber! Paper targets don't count, and Buffalo don't read loading manuals! I await your score!

---

ROFL! I thought someone would pick that up. Good work. I thought the same thing when I wrote it...

Express:

I do know a local guy that used a 454 to kill a buffalo at 110 yards with a Corbon penetrator.
He can shoot.

That said, hydrodynamic shock, IIRC, Fackler said, occurs in humans at about 2100 fps.

I wonder if it ever occurs in an animal 10-15 times our size.

For this, you are going to talk to the WBY guys, and what effect the WBY has over and above a 458 Lott, on cape buffalo.

I know this may sound strange, but I don't feel real comfortable discussing this, since I haven't watched the bullets, other then in Saeed's films, hit the animals. From that, and Ray's and a few other posters here, there does seem to be added effect, going into the 2200-2400 fps range.

I suspect that the combination of weight, and velocity increases the wound channel diameter, since the bullet maintains it's speed through the target.

In other words, the medium, lets take buffalo or lion, provides resistance to the bullet, slowing it down. The combination of bullet weight, sectional density, and velocity all determine the rate at which the bullet slows down. The longer the bullet maintains it's speed, perhaps the more damage is done. I think this theory applies to soft nosed bullets, but I'm not sure if it works for solids, for any real effect.

Still, this is an example of a theory trying to match the experience. Ray says lions react to 500 grain bullets in a more violent way then lighter bullets. Try and figure out why a 500 grain soft would have more effect then a 400 grain, or lighter slug, at higher velocity?

Whatever.

John: Seyfried couldn't get to that rifle, he was in thick thorns, lieing down, when the buffalo decided Seyfried was in his area, and the buffalo nearly landed on him, after a little run at him.

ZeroDrift said:

quote:

---

John S - I'm with you. I really don't care what folks did in the past...technology available. I do not see this as being weak - only wise...

---

wis�dom [w�zd?m] noun
1. good sense: the knowledge and experience needed to make sensible decisions and judgments, or the good sense shown by the decisions and judgments made
2. accumulated learning: accumulated knowledge of life or in a particular sphere of activity that has been gained through experience
3. opinion widely held: an opinion that almost everyone seems to share or express
4. sayings: ancient teachings or sayings

Encarta� World English Dictionary � & (P) 1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.

A Zerodrift: If you ignore the past, and history, it makes your statement about being wise, really funny, a bit ironic, and sad.


s

I've killed Buffalo with the 308 and 8x57 using military ball, but that sure doesn't make either caliber a Buffalo gun..I don't kid myself about that, I knew it wasn't smart, but figured I was good enough to get away with it and I did...I know Finn Aagard killed a bull with a spear, sorta and that doesn't make the spear a Buffalo gun...Ross has killed a lot of animals with all sorts of weird calibers and guns, that is kinda his "thang"..He is an absolutly fine hunter and a fantastic shot so that makes up for a lot of why it works for him...

Bottom line is all this stuff we do is nothing more than stunts, if that turns your crank then have at but realize it for what it is....

If someone wants to bet me I can't kill a Buffalo with a 222 or even a 22 L. R. or whatever he had better bring plenty of cash because I just might try it if the price is right...

Isnt it interesting how these forums are like a dysfunctional family. ... Let a troll show up and everyone rallies together to root them out and chase them off. If theres no-one to fight against, we fight amongs ourselves.
good hunting everyone,it really makes no matter what you use!