What do you think is the following package worth?
1 x elephant bull (30 - 40 pounds a side)
1 x buffalo trophy bull 40"
1 x kudu bull
1 x zebra
2 x impala
14 days

In RSA this is going to get ugly

mark - you're right, but I'm not going to start it

ah...go ahead

You know this isn't really fair. Zingel-Safaris is a new member and doesn't know that most members here don't think much of DG hunting in RSA.

quote:

Originally posted by Zingeli_Safaris:
What do you think is the following package worth?
1 x elephant bull (30 - 40 pounds a side)
1 x buffalo trophy bull 40"
1 x kudu bull
1 x zebra
2 x impala
14 days

Is this a hunt where the client actually shoots the animals, or one where the client only hopes to shoot the animals?

Also, can you provide a photo of both the buffalo and the elephant in question before the hunt is booked?

quote:

can you provide a photo of both the buffalo and the elephant in question before the hunt is booked?

Hey 500,
you should specify if you want those pics of the live animals, they may have already been sent to the taxidermist for preperation before the client arrives.

Hopefully they take the pics of the animals good side, that would be the side without it's measurements spray painted on it.

Now you guys are just being ugly.

Zingeli

Many posters here do not think that legitimate DG hunts are doable in RSA.The fact that you are stating that the elephant is 30-40 lbs and that the buffalo is 40 inches helps to promote the idea that this amy be a fish in a barrel type situation.

Please state the area involved, how large an area it is , if the area involved is a game ranch or a concession, etc.

Perhaps with this additional info someone can give you a valuation for the hunt.I certainly hope someone will attempt to do so in a civilized manner.

A ballpark figure for a 10 - 14 day hunt, for an elephant of that size, and a buffalo in the 38 inch class depending on the area, and based on info that I have received from numerous landowners, would cost in the region of around $36 - $39 000.

An option of similar offerings in Zimbawe would probably be significantly cheaper. Ganyana would probably be the best source of information in this regard.

Brad

quote:

Originally posted by Brad_Rolston:
A ballpark figure for a 10 - 14 day hunt, for an elephant of that size, and a buffalo in the 38 inch class depending on the area, and based on info that I have received from numerous landowners, would cost in the region of around $36 - $39 000.

An option of similar offerings in Zimbawe would probably be significantly cheaper. Ganyana would probably be the best source of information in this regard.

Brad

I cannot imagine anyone paying that kind money to kill them in SA. Go to Zim and hunt wild animals even if Mugbe isn't on license. Have a good time inside the fence!

500 grains,

You tell me how to take pictures of an elephant and buffalo in a 75000 acres reserve. FYI this is also open towards the Kruger National Park -NO FENCES! Therefore the buffalo and elephant frequent this area from the Kruger Park side as well.

But it just shows me again that how biased people can be. I have this hunt for sale at $33500-00 - sorry guys no pictures avilable.

For interest sake, seeing that someone mentioned a hunt in Zim, same deal would cost you about US$27500 in Zim, which makes Zingele's price very good indeed if on one of the reserves bordering Kruger. Tell me, how many of the guys regularly knocking SA has been there, and done any hunting there at all?

quote:

Originally posted by Zingeli_Safaris:
500 grains,

You tell me how to take pictures of an elephant and buffalo in a 75000 acres reserve. FYI this is also open towards the Kruger National Park -NO FENCES! Therefore the buffalo and elephant frequent this area from the Kruger Park side as well.

But it just shows me again that how biased people can be. I have this hunt for sale at $33500-00 - sorry guys no pictures avilable.

Ummmmm.... If you already have a price, why ask what it is worth?

500grains, that was my question exactly.

Gentlemen,

My apologies if I offended any one but this was to test the waters at Accurate Reloading Forum. I must say that I am very surprised by the way people think of hunting in S.A., for I have always thought that most outfitters and PH's try to hunt in a manner of fair chase.

How can we generalize when someone posts a picture of a lion on e-bay, say that every PH in S.A. is the same? I can not guarantee any of the animals it is a hunt after all, but they are there. Elephant and buffalo are seen on a daily basis and there are some real good dagga boys in the area.

I hoped for a positive response which could have given me hope for hunting these giants in S.A. but obviously none of you would be interested once hunting on elephant is opened in S.A.

Zingeli,

Don't give up on all of AR based on the cynical ravings of a few. After spending some time here you will see that the usual suspects appear whenever they think they can say something negative or denigrating about any subject at all.

If you have something new to offer there are many here who will be interested in hearing about it. The details will be the only way that anyone can make any comparison.

Some will never call it a "fair chase" hunt unless there are no fences within hundreds of miles and they can sleep in a tent.

However, for others, the lower daily rates, and ranch lodges of South Africa may make sense as well.

Let us know more details. Is there more information on your web site?

Les

Zingeli_Safaris

The fact that you got handled a bit harshly here illustrates the PR problem the hunting industry in RSA faces amoung knowledgable hunters. Posters here know that you can find fair chase hunts in RSA, and even that the majority of outfitters in RSA are ethical. Part of the problem is that the actions of the unethical minority personally offend many people who then take their damaged feelings and their cheque books, and go somewhere else. Others avoid RSA simply because they don't want to risk booking a hunt only to feel like a dumbass slob on the off chance that what they thought was a hunt is actually a collection exercise involving semi-domesticated stock. Finally, I'd be more than a bit shy about posting pictures of a perfectly legit hunt in RSA on AR simply because a large fraction of the viewers would be wondering to themselves, even if polite enough not to say it, if I was a poser who actually shot pen raised stock and called it hunting.

I'm not saying any of the above is universal, and certainly not saying it is fair. I am saying that the above concerns reflect widely held preception and that in marketing, preception is reality. Please don't abandon AR yet. If you run a good operation and have the stomach for the inevitable pissing contests, you might be able to change the preception a bit. I'd welcome that, if for no other reason than I'd like to think about hunting in RSA without that bit of doubt creeping in and pushing me to another country again.

Regards,
Dean

quote:

Originally posted by Zingeli_Safaris:
Gentlemen,

My apologies if I offended any one but this was to test the waters at Accurate Reloading Forum. I must say that I am very surprised by the way people think of hunting in S.A., for I have always thought that most outfitters and PH's try to hunt in a manner of fair chase.

How can we generalize when someone posts a picture of a lion on e-bay, say that every PH in S.A. is the same? I can not guarantee any of the animals it is a hunt after all, but they are there. Elephant and buffalo are seen on a daily basis and there are some real good dagga boys in the area.

I hoped for a positive response which could have given me hope for hunting these giants in S.A. but obviously none of you would be interested once hunting on elephant is opened in S.A.

I wonder why you are so sensitive about this. Canned hunting in RSA is well documented, so you must expect the public to be cautious. Your initial post did not state that this was fair chase, or even that you were offering a hunt, so your false indignation rings quite hollow.

quote:

Originally posted by Zingeli_Safaris:
What do you think is the following package worth?
1 x elephant bull (30 - 40 pounds a side)
1 x buffalo trophy bull 40"
1 x kudu bull
1 x zebra
2 x impala
14 days

I took the above for EXACTLY what it was; an incitement to argue.

Zingeli knows EXACTLY what the reputation of South African DG hunts (and those who offered them) has been, going back as far as the 1970's.

Frozen lions and leopards, 'hand raised' or 'acclimated' DG, retired zoo animals, DG behind high fence, put-and-take DG, etc.
South African outfitters have a lot of bad acts and bad actors to make up for.

When you consider that even SCI (!) separates lions from SA (and Namibia) from wild lions, no one should be surprised that SA is not the first destination one thinks of when planning a DG hunt.

George

I don't see nothing wrong with his post and from the begging I notice that he was offering a hunt for that price and not trying to incite anyone for any kind of "argue".

What has to do this hunt with a canned hunt?
You are hunting the border of the Kruger, so hunting the Save is also "canned hunting" ??

Sometimes I simple don't understand...

L

quote:

Originally posted by Lorenzo:
I don't see nothing wrong with his post and from the begging I notice that he was offering a hunt for that price and not trying to incite anyone for any kind of "argue".

What has to do this hunt with a canned hunt?
You are hunting the border of the Kruger, so hunting the Save is also "canned hunting" ??

Sometimes I simple don't understand...

L

I agree with Lorenzo. I don't see why this hunt offer is disagreeable at all???

Also if the price was right the only place I would probably consider a DG hunt in South Africa is on Kruger's borders. Unfortunately usually the price is more expensive.

I don't see why lions are even relevant as "Zingeli-Safaris" doesn't even MENTION lion in his post !

The only thing offputting maybe was stating the "trophy size" in the post. Maybe it should have been explained this was the possible or trophy size that could be expected.

Gentlemen,

There is nothing wrong with offering a hunt, of any sort, here.

Trouble is I would not even consider hunting dangerous game in South Africa for the reasons my friend George has mentioned.

When SCI, which turns a blind eye to anything that might affect their "inner circle" members, decides to take action. One KNOWS there is a very rotten apple there.

One should be cautious about hunting dangerous game in RSA. If you choose to do so, pick a PH who has extensive dangerous game experience. Few of the PHs in RSA have much first-hand dangerous game experience.

Nothing as fun as getting into a train wreck with a "two week wonder" on his second buffalo hunt.

Regards,

Terry

There were only 8 elephant approved for hunting in the reserves bordering the Kruger National Park (KNP) although there were applications for 22.

These animals range freely between the reserves and the KNP and some are already resident in these parks because of the population pressure etc. The reason why I mentioned a 40" buffalo is because it is very possible to shoota 40" buffalo on a 14 day hunt in these areas. I have seen small herds of up to 12 dagga boys together here with some excellent trophy quality. The elepjant approved for hunting by the authorities are stated that we must hunt between 30 - 40 ' although I knwo that bigger ones roam there. Don't ask me why but they make the rules!

This hunt is also given as a package - rules by the landowners' of the area. This area is 35000 hectares (75000 acres) in size. The hunt will take place in the manner of fair chase. We will send out trackers to scanning, walk ourselves on spoor until we find the right trophy.

I have hunted most parts of Southern Africa also Zimbabwe and Botswana so I am not a new PH on DG. Furthermore with regard to frozen lions and leopards and talking about the 1970 when I was only 3 years old, come on, wake up!

These are not pen raised but roam freely in these areas as well as the adjacent 6,25 million acres of the KNP. 100 grains mention that I am sensitive, no sir just fedup with your constant negative remarks, but I forgot that some people only see themselves and the things they do as positive and the best.

I just wonder that if my friend Buzz have advertized this hunt, there probably would have been a fist fight for the first one to book. But because I am unknown this is an ideal situation to either get this new guy of the forum or slam him not to participate any more. I am fortunately working (hunting)and sometimes whish I had more time to visit or participate but for me the bush comes first.

Gentlemen, this is a fair chase hunt with no hidden agenda. I am not willing to risk my reputation or business for a couple of bucks. Like many add say: " ONLY SERIOUS PERSONS" and thos going to Africa this year have a blast in this wonderful continent.

Gents, I dont know Zingeli, but I see nothing wrong with his offer. I have hunted the border of Kruger and there are some damn fine buff there. Although I was not hunting them I did see lots of elephant and I would say 30 to 40 lbs is a good average. I will also say you can hunt them cheaper elsewhere but for RSA this seems like a pretty good deal price wise. If the concession is as described and I have no reason to believe it isnt there should be nothing wrong with this hunt.

I didn't see a thing wrong with this either. Perhaps his use of the silly smiling faces made it seem a bit 'tongue in cheek'? The mention of potential trophy sizes? He never guaranteed anything and seemingly to the detriment of his character, never made explict that they were not guarantees.

Zingela, don't get too worked up, there are always the omnipotent and all-knowing who hand down keyboard justice on everything SA Hunting based.

This post is directed to Karl , and has nothing to do with Zingeil Safaris.



( Tell me, how many of the guys regularly knocking SA has been there, and done any hunting there at all? )

I have two times, and one hunt was a total disaster! Talk about a hunt I will never forget!! On my arrival I found out the buffalo hunt area had changed? My PH was a two week wonder, that had never been to the new / changed hunting concession. Even with the directions to the hunting concession written on a piece of paper, we still got lost. It was truly a once in a life time experience! I have hunted and toured South africa for approximately 30 days with the little experience I have, I take everything I see or read on South Africa with a grain of salt. I know every outfitter is not a crook and there are some really fine people there. But the hunting is to intensely managed for me, It reminds me of fishing on a pay by the inch fishing pond.

quote:

one hunt was a total disaster! Talk about a hunt I will never forget!! On my arrival I found out the buffalo hunt area had changed? My PH was a two week wonder, that had never been to the new / changed hunting concession. Even with the directions to the hunting concession written on a piece of paper, and we still got lost. It was truly a once in a life time experience!

Hi Robert

It sure sounds diabolical that hunt

Can you please give us guests more details as it is in everybodies interest I would think to know the brutal facts ..

Whem was the hunt, with which company, which PH ... how did you book or with whom did you book etc etc

Regards, Peter

I do not want to high jack this post, If you want more information go to The Hunting Report #3217 There is a full account of my hunt.

Thanks Robert
I do agree that there are too many propblems in RSA with regard to hunting, mostly because anyone can get a PH licence with very little effort. However, the reason I asked the question was to see how many of the constant bitcheres and moaners have actually hunted in SA. Seems not a lot. Sorry to hear of your problems, but a 2 week special PH could not possibly have had a licence to hunt DG. It might be unfair, but IMO, if you want to hunt in SA, ask the PH to send you a permit that staes that he/ she is allowed to hunt DG. This permit is more difficult to obtain in SA, so a lot of the fly by nights and "2 week specials" will be culled from your list in this way. However, there are some great PH's in SA without this permit, one that do regular PG hunts for me.

Here's a picture of a buff I took in the Kruger.



If this guy wanders into the proposed hunting area then at least one good buff can be had.

I've hunted both sides of Kruger (in the 70s)and there were good sized buff there. Didn't see any elephant though. Is this the property that used to belong to the Donzer family?

500 Grains, before I wrote this I took some time to read alot of your posts. You seem to have a solid base of hunting experience and have alot to offer. But you seem to ruin it sometimes, like you just did on this thread by being an ass before you know what all the facts are. Being the keyboard police is fine but you need to have all the facts before you make the arrest. Just an observation.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

quote:

Originally posted by Lorenzo:
I don't see nothing wrong with his post and from the begging I notice that he was offering a hunt for that price and not trying to incite anyone for any kind of "argue".

What has to do this hunt with a canned hunt?
You are hunting the border of the Kruger, so hunting the Save is also "canned hunting" ??

Sometimes I simple don't understand...

L

Nitrox

I agree with Lorenzo. I don't see why this hunt offer is disagreeable at all???

Also if the price was right the only place I would probably consider a DG hunt in South Africa is on Kruger's borders. Unfortunately usually the price is more expensive.

I don't see why lions are even relevant as "Zingeli-Safaris" doesn't even MENTION lion in his post !

The only thing offputting maybe was stating the "trophy size" in the post. Maybe it should have been explained this was the possible or trophy size that could be expected.

Nitrox
I see nothing wrong with offerring the hunt and we can each do with it what they want, as I did.
Furthermore, he was aaking what we thought it was worth, not that he was offering it. At least that's the way i read it.

However, if you look at his first post, there is nothing to indicate where in SA this hunt will be conducted, nothing about the PH available, camp conditions and so forth. Nor did I find any information on the web site listed about this hunt, Maybe I missed it. ?? If it is truly on the border of Kruger and the acreage as later posted, then I wouldn't consider it "canned", but it still wouldn't get me interested. To each his own, but the package just doesn't fit me, maybe it does someone else.

quote:

Originally posted by beachbum:
500 Grains, before I wrote this I took some time to read alot of your posts. You seem to have a solid base of hunting experience and have alot to offer. But you seem to ruin it sometimes, like you just did on this thread by being an ass before you know what all the facts are. Being the keyboard police is fine but you need to have all the facts before you make the arrest. Just an observation.

Facts?

An outfitter started off with such a mysterious post that it was not clear if he was offering a hunt or thinking of going on the hunt. Why didn't he just give us the facts? What was the ulterior motive? In any event, the issues I raised in 2 sentences should be considered by anyone going to RSA to hunt. And Zingeli's excessive sensitivity to those issues makes me wonder.

From the new regs, it sounds like hunting might not be permitted on ranches bordering a Park unless it is high fenced now. Maybe the few reports I've seen here and otherwise weren't accurate, though. How does this effect the hunt offering posted above?

I agree had he given more details from the start there probably would have been less discussion. The more information given and the more detailed that info the better everyone can make a decision. I know I am a detail guy and expect no less when shopping for anything. This is less of a criticism and more of a helpfull sugesstion for anyone making a post of this nature. The more information you give prospective clients the easier it is to sell IMHO.

DPhillips Those new regs are still under review and will not be implemented for some time. The deadline for comments on the proposals is June. I dont see them taking effect until next year anyway.

Maybe because of a lack of knowledge about how most posters here feel about DG hunting in RSA Zingeli missed the boat on how he approached his question. If he would have started his post saying that he had a "Fair Chase DG Hunt" to begin with it would have generated some questions on exactly what he meant by fair chase but the rhetoric would have been much reduced.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Zingeli_Safaris:... this was to test the waters at Accurate Reloading Forum.

Well as you can see the water is a bit chilly, partly because of the way your question was interpreted. Many on the forum, like myself, hunted plainsgame and then went on to hunt the "big game" concessions in Zim, Tanzania and elsewhere, and would not consider a dangerous game hunt anywhere else.

That being said, $33,500 for SOUTH AFRICA sounds like a good price (my initial reaction to your original post was ~$37k) for the right individual...there are many people who will not hunt Zim, cannot afford Botswana or Tanzania, maybe prefers (needs) less of a bush experience, but wants to hunt elephant and buffalo. For this person, from what you described, this sounds like a fine opportunity.

Personally, I think a hunt like this could be fun and a challenge if done out of a mobile/spike camp, and all on foot. Hunt an area for a few days, then have porters move the camp. Use the vehicle only for restocking and recovery, and don't have the trackers pre-scout. Assuming of course this hunt is still possible (from 5/3 SCI email reg SA's new hunting regulations: "Limits are put on hunting on private land adjacent to protected areas where there is no fence").

C'mon folks, give the guy a break! - most of you know I don't rate the "adjoining KNP" hunts as I reckon the animals are far too habituated to people and vehicles, and it's not the kind of hunt I'd personally offer - BUT at the end of the day, he's offering a decent hunt that isn't canned for decent trophies at a decent (for RSA) price. - It might not be to everyone's tastes, but I'm sure some hunters would find it's just what they're looking for.

Maybe he could have been a little more upfront with what he wanted to do in the first place - (Well alright, he should!) but he's relatively new here and maybe doesn't know that the way to go, is simply to lay the offer out and respond to the takers...... Also bear in mind that English might not be his first language....... You might not like the offer but whatever happened to the everyone's welcome at AR (except of course the canners!) attitude we used to have here....... Let's all chill out and save our spite for our (or at least my!) ex wives.

quote:

Originally posted by AfricanHunter:
However, if you look at his first post, there is nothing to indicate where in SA this hunt will be conducted, nothing about the PH available, camp conditions and so forth. Nor did I find any information on the web site listed about this hunt, Maybe I missed it. ?? If it is truly on the border of Kruger and the acreage as later posted, then I wouldn't consider it "canned", but it still wouldn't get me interested. To each his own, but the package just doesn't fit me, maybe it does someone else.

Maybe the original post was just the bait hanging on the end of a hook?