My question would you hunt these Lions? Received an email this morning advertising this "special offer"


Herewith 4 lions that we have on an promotional offer. These lions will individually be released into a 1000 hectares camp and run free for 96 hours before each lion is hunted.

Hunting takes place on foot on tracks, under the guidance of myself and another P.H., who also have a lot of lion and leopard experience. Between the two of us, we have hunted 141 lions and 87 leopards combined, both with experience of lion and leopard charges, as well as elephant, buffalo, hippo and rhino charges.

The reason we are 2 professional hunters guiding the client, is because these lions could be very aggressive, and there is a well above average chance that they will charge (for that reason only one lion is released at a time with a 96 hours waiting period).

These 4 promotional lions we are offering now, are all captive wild lions and which have been used in a lion breeding project.


PROMOTIONAL OFFER
The price of the lions are as follows:
Duration: 5 days
Includes: Daily rates
Lodging and Meals
Drinks
All transport by road in South Africa
Daily laundry
1 Lion trophy male ( as per choice)
Cost of Promotional Offer which includes lion:
LEO 11 - USD 16.000 (value USD 23.500)
LEO 21 - USD 20.000 (value USD 28.100)
LEO 31 - USD 25.000 (value USD 35.750)
LEO 41 - USD 30.000 (value USD 42.500)


My thoughts

My personal view is totally unprintable!

I think that you owe it to the decent hunting community to forward the advertizing e-mail to the South African Professional Hunters Association. They would be in a possition to verify that the advertisement was in fact approved by the relevan Provincial Nature Conservation Department, and take the required action.

In good NON-CANNED hunting.

Andrew McLaren

It´s this kind of thing that give hunters -and the RSA- a bad name.

Gee, why do I smell troll?

I do not smell a troll...But to hunt a dymanic animal like a lion released into a big cage stinks...
My whole life I have hunted wild animals, that are free ranging....not caged...


Mike

Travel all the way to SA to kill a caged lion. SICK....

You could just get somebody to shoot it there, and ship the thropys back to you.. Oh, and take some photos of it as well.

No, I would not shoot or hunt or support this. It is wrong and a practice that should be banned.

Might be ok if the hunter was limited to a spear for a weapon and had to hunt alone i.e. no backup rifle. Well, let's be fair...give the hunter two spears.

quote:

Might be ok if the hunter was limited to a spear for a weapon and had to hunt alone

A spear? Bugger that, give the bastards who take up this offer a pen knife - then it might just be fair and sporting!!!

Gentlemen,

May be we are forgetting one very important fact about this.

If there was no demand, there will be no supply.

No

The real tragedy lies in the fact that one day, this sort of thing will become the norm, typifying the ethics of the day.

__________________________________________

"It says here you were decorated ... and they sent you here!?"

Reply: "No, I wanted to come."

"Why!?"

Reply: "To see the frontier."

"The frontier?"

Reply: "Yes ... before it's gone."

The general condemnation of this type of killing of caged animals - and then call it hunting - underlines the importance of getting the operators who offer such "hunts" exposed. Please, for the sake of the decent hunting folks out there forward the advert to PHASA.The legal argument is that every single advert that a hunting outfitter places has to be approved by the Provincial Nature Conservation Department. I very seriously doubt if this ad was ever approved. Enough to nail the b%$t@#*s!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

.

What has hunting come to?


465H&H

Damn, this crap is unending!
I certainly look forward to the day when we don't see these ads and their heinous spin off for SA's industry and hunting in general.

I am seriously hoping DEAT puts a spanner in the works of these canned operators ASAP.

However, like Saeed said....for this to be proliferating, there is a significant market willing and keen to undertake these 'hunts'. Its kind of like the drug trade almost, you can demonise the suppliers all you like but someone is putting the cheque in the mail....or like fat people suing fast food resturants...?

There needs to be cessation on both sides methinks?
This annoys me no-end!

The reality is that these are designed for the guy who wants to say he killed the big five as a bragging point, but really is not a hunter. You get a magnificently maned lion you can brag about with little or no effort, which is what they want. There is a demand for these hunts, just as there is for pen raised whitetail to be shot as they feed from a feeder.

I think we are onto something here. A new reality tv show. 1000 hectares. 4 lions. No fear of man. High fences. 4 contestants, say 2 city boys, and a couple of gals, one, oh say a teacher, another ex-military. Guys in flip flops and shorts. Gals in BIKINIS!

The lions get to vote (eat) the contestants off one by one.

The last surviving human wins.

Sadly the comment on supply and demand is true. Someone would not be offering these unless there was a market for them. As for me,

is this different than those that buy (at auction) excess zoo animals and turn them loose on their (Texas) ranch to be hunted?

Bear in mind that the alternative is to pay the public zoos to "dispose" of these animals in other means.....

As far as I'm concerned this is just fine as long as those hunting are totally aware of the circumstances.....the truth of the origin of the animals.

BTW...I'm not interested in the lions at all. I'm also not interested in the zoo fed zebras either.

This is simply wrong, on so many levels, in so many ways. The saddest thing is, there was talk of doing the same there here in the US with caged lions. Is this really any different than the people that pay $10-20 grand to shoot a huge buck in a small cage? The trophy might look good on the wall, but the story would be like a slap in the face every time.

Ok, so what is the differance between this RSA lion "hunt" and a cape buff hunt where they send you a picture of the animal for your approval before you book.

Hog Killer

MS's new business.

IMHO there will always be a demand for great trophies! Especially, when they can be obtained and guaranteed for little effort, but this is not hunting. Not every animal is RW caliber that you shoot, but it is the best you could do for that area, time, stalk, physical restraints, etc. In a closed-fenced area, it is time for mano el mano with a spear then you would have my respect, canned lion or not.

Dak

No one would be this blatent in todays political climate. I say troll.

This sort of thing is driven by what I call "the SCI Inner Circle" mentality!

For those of us who like to go hunt, and just enjoy being out in the bush with our friends, regardless of the size of the trophy, this is not acceptable.

For those with deep pockets, little free time and no ethics, it is perfect for bragging rights.

I have forwarded the email and photos to PHASA and asked that they check if the outfitter had permission to advertise the hunt as such.

The majority of South African outfitters is doing their best to keep the industry clean especially with all the reports on canned lion hunts and then it takes an advert like this to bugger everything up and the anti's up in arms again, is it not possible for us hunters to stand together and condemm these type of hunts?

There will always be those in every walk of life who are shall we say less than what I would call ethical. There is always someone looking for a shortcut or the easy way out in any endeavor. There will also always be someone willing to satisfy that demand for the right price.

First let me say, no animal is acclimated to any property in 96 hours period. I have no problem with excess animals being bought and hunted under the right conditions. In the case of lions I have no idea what that is.

Second, is 1000 hectares a big enough hunting area for an animal like a lion? I seriously doubt it. Size of a property is not always an indication of the dificulty of hunting it. However, in the case of lions and other large predators size surely does matter.

I think this advertisement speaks to more money than brains and is certainly a question of ones ethics. It is certainly not for me. Having said that I would like to play devils advocate for a moment.
1) Can "canned" hunts be used to generate money for the lion breeding and conservation projects by selling off excess stock?
2) If the lions were released for longer periods of time (which I think RSA requires BTW) would that make it better?
3) How much propertry would be enough?
4) Does it make a difference if it is surplus lioness rather than "trophy" males?
5) Does it take pressure off of the wild populations by fullfilling the needs of these bwanabes and as such serve a usefull purpose?
6) This is selfish, does it keep lion hunting ie the real thing in the affordable range for the rest of us?
7) What happens to the excess animals if they are not allowed to be hunted.? I am not talking about the conditions in the advert.
8) Last, If the bred animals loose market value then what? Do breeders stop? Where do things go from there?

Once again let me say shooting any animal that is not acclimated to a property or in too small an area should never happen. I dont support it from the smallest up to the king of beasts. I just want to point out there are certainly some things to think about and everthing has ripple effects often unforeseen.

I have to agree with Saeed that it is this competitive attitude that leads to this. I have no problem with the inner circle awards or any other when viewed correctly. It is or should be simply a recognition of having achieved ones goals. When it becomes twisted and is the goal in itself there lies the problem. It is the hunt and the enjoyment of the hunt that is important. Unfortunately there are those who loose sight of that.

Nampom

This is beyond disgusting and these guys should be brought to book.

Please disclose who this so called outfitter is including his e-mail address and web site.

Thank-you

I want to bring this back to the top. I was hoping to generate some discussion with my questions. I think we can all recognize the obvious shortcomings of this advertised "hunt". What I am trying to get at is what it would take (if at all) to make it appropriate. I guess what I am trying to ask is are there conditions that surplus lions could be hunted under that would be ethical? This in turn would maintain market value for the surplus animals. As we all know if it pays it stays. I just dont know if it is possible for a large predator like a lion to ever be hunted ethically after having been raised as domestic stock no matter how large the area.

quote:

Originally posted by sierrabravo45:
MS's new business.

Personally I think MS would be strongly against anything like this.... at least from what I have heard of him.

Unless there is a self-sustaining population of animals in a fenced area, it stops being hunting and becomes shooting.

I believe self-sustaining populations would be impossible in most of RSA. After all why would a game farmer feed a pride of lions valuable game animals for years to be able to harvest 1 male?

This may be the point where the financial benefits of legal hunting have reached their limits. We are not just going to shoot anything which may be considered 'surplus' and automatically benefit both nature and our own image.

One of the reasons why I hesitate to rely solely on $$ to justify why hunting should be encouraged. I know, 'it pays it stays', but this is ridiculous, especially since the public at large sees all african hunters as oil millionaires and business magnates that just want something to brag about!!
Best,

Gabe

Boghossian, Not that I disagree with you because I dont, but that is why I included the question about females. I am curious to see if as a group we could reach some kind of consenus as to what a minimum requirement would be. It obviously would not appeal to everyone and probably not even me. My point is there should at least be some kind of minimums in place. I dont like it, you dont like it. There is obviously quite a demand or the market would not be there. As such there should be some kind of minimums that at least give the animal a sporting chance.

Any true hunter won´t ever call these practices "hunts" ... they are mere killings, with no respect for the prey and certainly nobody that might participate in such shooting can feel proud of it ...


From African Hunting Info (http://africanhuntinginfo.com/modules/news/):

The New York Times
April 9, 2006
Trophies in a Barrel: Examining 'Canned Hunting'
By BONNIE TSUI

"CANNED HUNTING" — the sport killing of animals bred in captivity and released into enclosed surroundings with no chance of escape — seems to generate controversy wherever it is practiced, whether on game ranches in Texas or in private reserves in South Africa.

In South Africa, the controversy came to a climax last fall when a panel of experts commissioned by the country's environmental minister recommended a total ban on the practice, which also includes the hunting of animals that are drugged, sedated or accustomed to humans. In the next two months, the South African Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism is expected to act on that recommendation by releasing for public comment the first draft of regulations on national hunting standards.

The cost could be steep. South Africa has a thriving wildlife industry that generates about $280 million a year from hunting, live-animal auctions and eco-tourism. Hunting is prohibited in the country's 22 national parks. But, as the panel noted in its report, the revenue earned by park fees and other nonhunting wildlife activities is far outstripped by that of trophy hunting, which takes place mostly in private game parks.

The diversity of its native species makes South Africa one of the most popular international hunting destinations. Zebras, giraffes, tigers and cheetahs are among the most desirable game. Many South African hunting Web sites advertise "big five" trophy packages, which refer to safaris in which the lion, buffalo, leopard, rhinoceros and elephant can all be hunted.

But not all trophy hunts are the same. Lucrative profits have led some private hunting operators to conduct canned hunting safaris, which virtually guarantee trophies. Growing concern over the ethics of this practice led Marthinus van Schalkwyk, the minister of environmental affairs and tourism, to convene a panel of conservation and management experts to report on the underside of the country's tourism boom.

The unsavory aspects of canned hunting in South Africa were first revealed in "The Cooke Report," a 1997 British documentary, which showed drugged lions being shot by foreign hunters from the backs of vehicles. The public, both in and outside South Africa, responded with outrage, but in the nine years since then, no national policy on game hunting has been put into effect to stop the practice.

In the 2003-4 hunting season, almost 54,000 animals were killed by 6,700 tourists, mostly in private trophy-hunting parks, according to the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism panel's report. Included in this figure are 190 lions, which brought in about $3.3 million, or $17,500 spent by each successful hunter. Facts and figures were obtained through public hearings, written submissions and research papers commissioned from organizations including Traffic, an international wildlife-trade monitoring group.

A primary issue with canned hunts is that a hunting outfitter may work with a captive breeding facility to provide animals to order. Cross-breeding for desirable trophy characteristics is also a concern. Zebras are bred with donkeys to produce "zonkeys," which are slower and easier to shoot; other genetically manipulated animals include white tigers, white lions, red wildebeests and large black-maned lions. According to the International Fund for Animal Welfare, live white lions can fetch $2,000 to $100,000 each.

"All foreign tourists coming to South Africa, hunters or otherwise, need to be made aware of these industries," said Neil Greenwood, a researcher for International Fund for Animal Welfare Southern Africa. "They are then empowered to ask the questions and make informed decisions on whether they want to support industries that compromise the welfare and conservation of all animals."

The provinces now regulate the hunting of wild animals. Their legislation generally prohibits the use of tranquilizers, luring by sound and hunting in small enclosures. But vague definitions (for example, of what constitutes a "small enclosure" or a "wild" animal), inadequate enforcement and the willingness of tourists to pay to shoot big game have allowed the hunts to continue.

"One must bear in mind that certain individuals do contravene the law," said Leseho Sello, chief director of biodiversity and heritage for the environmental affairs and tourism department. National legislation would be an effort to curb what he calls "rogues."

Gareth Morgan, a member of Parliament for the Democratic Alliance party, raised the canned hunting issue upon taking office in 2004. "It is hoped this policy will give life to the recommendation," he said. But he raises continuing problems involving specifying the size of enclosures and the distinction between "free-roaming" and "captive-bred" animals. Mr. Morgan said that even if a captive-bred animal were released at an early age to be classified as free-roaming by the time a hunt occurred, the previous exposure to humans may still affect its instinctive flight response.

SOME say that going to the source of the animals used in these canned hunting operations is the best way to stop the abuse. In November, the International Fund for Animal Welfare released a report of its investigation into the captive breeding of large predators to provide prey for canned hunting. The organization estimates that about 3,000 lions are held in captive breeding facilities.

"Some owners and managers of captive breeding facilities have financial and other interests in canned hunting operations," said Helen Dagut of the International Fund for Animal Welfare Southern Africa. "For example, a hunter will request a particular animal, which is then quickly provided by the captive breeder."

Animals in captive breeding operations, she said, are often bred in small cages or enclosures, separated from their mothers earlier than they would be in nature, and habituated to humans through regular contact.

"The banning of captive breeding other than for bona fide conservation purposes would have the effect of inhibiting hunting practices, including canned hunting," Ms. Dagut said.

Some safari hunting operators argue that the canned hunting issue is blown out of proportion, saying that their animals are released into enclosed areas that mimic the animal's natural habitat, with enough space and cover for it to evade capture.

About three hours south of Johannesburg, Kukuzans Hunting Safaris and Tours offers lion hunting in fenced areas of 7.7 square miles and larger, with the animals hunted on foot. "In South Africa, there are huge private game reserves as well as national game reserves, but all of them are 'high fenced,' the term the Texans use," said Krys Wessels, owner and founder of Kukuzans.

Mr. Wessels said that a member from Nature Conservation, which manages wildlife on behalf of the government, attends all of his hunts to ensure that lions are hunted with the principle of "fair chase." The environmental and tourism department defines "fair chase" as the pursuit of the animal in its own habitat, where it has a fair chance of evading the hunter with "natural vigilance" and "physical capabilities."

Stewart Dorrington, a member of the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism's expert panel and the president of the Professional Hunters Association of South Africa (Phasa), points out that most hunters are opposed to canned hunting and the stigma it brings to the industry. "I certainly do believe canned hunting is blown out of all proportion," he said. "Our policy at Phasa is to disassociate ourselves with any hunting of captive-bred lions."

Because hunting is so integral to South Africa's economy and culture — contributing significantly to job creation and acting as a viable form of land use in areas that would otherwise be economically dormant — the department has said that any policy would allow hunting with the principles of fair chase to continue.

Mr. Morgan, the member of Parliament, says he hopes to have strict definitions to give the provinces less leeway in interpretation. "The reality is that canned hunting is rife in South Africa, frowned upon by the government in general, but in some isolated cases actively aided by provincial officials," Mr. Morgan said. "I hope it can now end, but I am not holding my breath."

Very good article with many of the same points I make.
Thanks for sharing it.

I, too, find fault with this, but I am not at all surprised. It is one more example of what people hungry for the almighty dollar will do.

This is no different from Texas, where some folks hunt pen raised and auctioned "exotics" in small enclosed sections of property often 300 acres or less, at significant prices. I once worked with a man who took great pride in hunting "exotics" in the TX hill country. He told me of one instance where he had looked for an axis buck for three days, and finally found it. As he glassed the animal, he asked the "guide" just how good the animal was. The reply was something on the order of "Well, he is 33-1/2" on the left and 32-3/4 on the right, and will rank #3 in the SCI Exotic book all time." Jerry said he told the guy "Oh, come on, nobody is that good." To which the "guide" replied, "You are right. Nobody is that good. But I had him in a squeeze chute four days ago, and I measured him. I know exactly how big he is."

It isn't for me, but supply and demand set the tone. Sadly, as more and more land becomes unavailable for us to hunt on, this is going to become more prevalent, I am afraid.

In answer to the original question, No, I would not.
Do I care if you do? Nope. Couldn't care less. If your an old guy and this is the best you can do, go for it. It ain't none of my business.
I compare it to Whitetail deer hunts in the south. Deer feeder 50 yards in front of the stand, when the feeder goes off, the deer are standing there waiting.
I might argue the use of the word "hunt" versus a "shoot".
I tell you what, you don't tell me how I can KILL my animal, and I won't tell you how to kill your animal. Deal?
In the end the animal is dead.

I think Saeed has summed it up. As for me, I think it stinks REAL bad !!! Just sickening !!!

I think it's terrible, it's sort of like hunting a Jersey cow and comparing it to cape buffalo.