Just taken back delivery of my 404J after a few modifications for scope use. We had sighted in on the sand bags to shoot 1 inch high at 100yards with the 400gr Woodleigh. 3 shot groups less than 1 inch, I have posted the group before.

Now I had a set of the Stoney Point Hike n Hunt for all intents & purposes - "SHOOTING STICKS". Now 3 people fired over the sticks with my rifle - without exception all our shots landed 3-5 inches LOW of the aiming mark (at 100 yards). Anyone with actual experience find this the case with shooting sticks?? I've not heard anyone mention this before on these threads. What would be the reason?

One of us also fired a CZ550 - 416 Rigby at the same target. The Rigby was sighted in to shoot an inch high at 100 and we also noticed all the shots went low as well.

The 404 was scoped with a 1.25-4 S&B in Talley rings and the Rigby with a 4x fixed Zeiss in some European 1 piece QD's that attached to the rails.

Got us scratching out heads.

Regards
JohnT

When sighting in, was it at a bench, over sand bags, and not gripping the forearm of the rifle?
When shooting off sticks were you gripping the forearm of the rifle? This could explain it

I shoot alot off of sticks, never had any problem like that, I sighted it in on sandbags then practiced on sticks.

I can't hit anything off sticks and will not use them.

JT,

I have never had any problem shooting from them and I shoot a 458 Lott..Just some advise my hand is in the crook of the shooting sticks and rifle in my hand..You guys may be pulling down on the front of the rifle...I have fired some .75inch groups at 75 yds from sticks..

Mike

Mike

Not in my experience. I've had excellent results off of sticks.

quote:

Originally posted by retreever:
...<snip>... Just some advise my hand is in the crook of the shooting sticks and rifle in my hand ...<snip>...

Mike

Ditto!

-Bob F.

Make certain that the sticks are high enough. If the sticks are too low, you may be bending over and not getting a good sight picture in the scope. Just a thought. Ideally, mount the rifle as if shooting off-hand and then see where the sticks need to be.

I've seen people just set up on sticks without adjusting them. When the PH or tracker sets up the sticks, with your rifle at your shoulder, take your left hand and adjust the sticks to the correct height.

One PH told me to use the sticks just to steady my off-hand shot. Not to rely too much on the sticks supporting all of the weight of the rifle. (Unless you are set up on an animal for a long time and need a little rest before the shot).

If they are bipod sticks, then they should be slightly out in front of you and leaning back into you. So that you become the third leg in a set of tripod sticks.

Regards,

Terry

retreever (et al.): What kind of shooting sticks do you use? Do you make them yourself? I have shot several animals in RSA using shooting sticks but it did take some practice for me to use them successfully. Most of the store-bought sticks seem light and unstable to me...

rwj,

Have you tried bamboo poles and vacuum cleaner belt shooting sticks?

Regards,

Terry

I have always shot off of three of some kind of hardwood poles bound together about three inches from the top by a strip of tire inner tube.

I have never done anything but stick the forend of my rifle into the top where the poles come together at off-hand height, steady the crux of the poles with my off hand, and shoot.

Never had a problem of any kind. I wonder if these rifles that won't shoot off sticks are bedded properly?

Terry: I have not tried that but it sounds like an excellent idea. I bet I can track down bamboo poles even here in Anchorage. I am going to make a set and I will let you know how they work. Thank you.

rwj,

This from my Tips & Packing List


Shooting sticks are widely used in Africa. Some PHs use bipod shooting sticks and some use tripod shooting sticks. You can make your own and acquire invaluable practice before you go. Go to a home improvement store or garden department and buy five bamboo poles (6 feet long poles) along with a two vacuum cleaner belts (Eureka F&G size). Your total cost should be well under $20.00. To make the tripod shooting sticks, put three poles together and wrap one of the belts around the poles three times. Roll the belt down about 6 inches from the top. Use the same procedure for the bipod set, just wrap the belt around the poles four times.

You may want to wrap the top portion of the shooting sticks with something soft (leather, cloth, etc.) so as to protect your rifle. I have also seen tripod sticks where one of the poles (above the belt) has been cut off, so as to make it easier to support your rifle.





Regards,

Terry

Sounds to me like the sticks were set up too short.

Try the bipod option but make them plenty long enough so that they are at an angle to your body.....then take a step backwards or forwards to get the angle/height right.

Terry: Shame on me for not thoroughly reading your advice posted elsewhere on AR, but I am still glad I asked...your photographs are excellent as well for purposes of illustrating exactly what your talking about. They look sturdy and they look like you could carry them in the field...'shooting sticks' that I have tried to make in the past that were strudy were also large, bulky and very heavy. And unusable. Have you published this information outside of AR? Thank you.

In my experience the biggest reason for shooting low from a bipod or tripod is usually forward shoulder presure in antisipation of the recoil. From sand bags the shoulder pressure does not have that much influance.

When making your tripod, move the one stick down to the level where you tie the tree sticks together. It will a V without the nuisance of the 3rd piece of stick that is always a pest. When putting down your tripod the one leg is longer, you grip the other two legs and pull it backwards, your V is always in the correct positopn and it helps in quickly setting up the the sticks.

One method of using shooting sticks.

All three of us had just watched Boddington on Buffalo the night before. For those who have not watched he sighted in the 375H&H bolt gun on a bench but the double was sighted in on shooting sticks the 3 stick variety. He never tested the zero of the bolt gun on the shooting sticks. Till yesterday I would not have thought it made any difference. But I know different now.

FWIW my rifle was zeroed on the bench off a front aluminium rest with sandbag & rear rabbit ear sandbags. Yes I do hold the foreend (on bench & on shooting sticks). Wouldn't want to do otherwise - not on a Jeffery lest my rifle end up in New Zealand.

My Stoney Point Hike n Hunt are basically a bipod for use standing up. It was fully extended BTW so definitely not too short. I am only 5ft 10 - the others were about 6ft 3. It may well be related to the pressure we put on the foreend but I dare say there would be some down pressure on the forend off the bench too. How much is correct???

More fine tuning required to see if we can get back to POI that we thought we had off the bench. Mind you we were still minute of Buffalo but still a revaltion to all of us.

Interesting that none of you have had this issue. As I said we also tested a factory std CZ550 in 416 Rigby & the same thing happened. So it was not just my rifle.

Regards
JohnT

I will try my bamboo ones and get back with a report on POI here in north America. It may just be that your are in the land down under.

LONG GRASS OUTFITTERS
sells a great set of shooting sticks. They can be taken apart and fit inside your gun case.

They are forum members and great folks to do business with!

Like a lot of British stalkers I carry and use shooting sticks a lot, normally the tall bipod style.
A lot of guys here use variations of the fixed length bamboo ones shown above, but if you can get a set of adjustable telescopic ones, I think they are worth their weight in gold.

If you carry the tall sticks extended yourself, they also make glassing much more efficient...

It takes me but a few seconds to get the sticks from "fully extended" to "closed" and when closed they make sitting shots seem like shooting from a bench. You do need to practice changing positions though to get reasonably slick at it...

I have never tried the tall tripods, but I see them as more of a benefit when somebody else is carrying the sticks for you...I say this as the tracker or PH can set them up infront of you and then step out of the way...that must be a little easier to do with a tripod rather than a bipod..

Regards,

Pete

I am not allowed to use them anymore, they make me shoot offhand...I always miss with the sticks for some reason...Seems their is something to what you say....

I shot at a Reed buck over the sticks at 100 yards. He was facing me at an angle, hit him in the hip. He ran and I stepped to the side of the sticks and stuck one in his heart as he ran broadside at about 150 or so yards, then he lifted his head up out of the grass and I broke his neck...I miss a nice Sable at 250 yards with sticks, then got off another shot using a tree for a rest at 300 yards and killed him..I can name a lot of such instances, so they do not allow the tracker to bring the sticks when I hunt...

Pierre makes me shoot off his shoulder and that works great, never miss. Also I don't shoot well out of a vehicle window.

Have hunted with Chifuti Safaris (Andrew Dawson/Paul Smith) last two years. Andrew had me place the rifle in the cradle of the sticks and grip the forearm in front of the sticks. Gives you three points of stabilizing the gun. Worked well for me.

Never had any problems off the sticks. Perhaps too much downward pressure is being applied to the forearm? I find this interesting. I never have a problem with the sticks being set too short!

I'm another that can't use sticks. I shoot high instead of low. My first African animal I shot off sticks at maybe 40 yards, a Blue Wildebeest. He went down from spine shock and then got up a few seconds later. I drilled him through the tail offhand at 150. I've tried to practice with a set and finally gave up.

Interesting thread.

I never had any problem. I rest the back of my hand in the notch of the sticks to steady an offhand shot essentially.

I cringe at the thought of letting any part of the gun touch the sticks, or anything else but me.

My PH taught me to shoot off the sticks just as Ramrod describes above. Fred told me that Americans always want to push down on the rifle. Instead, just gently rest the forearm in the sticks and keep the barrel steady by holding the forearm in front of the sticks (again, gently).
Once I did this, I shot just fine and was quite comfortable.

The other thing Fred did, before we even started our hunt, was to measure me and to make sure when he put the sticks up for me they were at the correct height.

John

Thank you all for your contributions.

I will try what Ramrod says - makes sense but I will have to practice to make it work.

I was surprised that such a seasoned African Campaigner such as Ray does not use sticks. So it is definitely a technique that has to be learnt. I kinda cringe at the shots that Saeed does in the videos over Pierre's shoulders - awfully close to the ears but he probably wants not to hear too well so Walter cannot bother him!

30ott6 - what should be the correct height of the sticks relative to your height?

RIP the Hike & Hunt has a purpose made rubber pad at the yoke. Reasonable protective & soft.

Regards
JohnT

quote:

Originally posted by JohnT:

RIP the Hike & Hunt has a purpose made rubber pad at the yoke. Reasonable protective & soft.
...

Well, that rubber pad ought to feel good on the back of my hand, not on my rifle forend.

You know that gentlemen hunters wear a shooting glove on there offhand so as not to rust the barrels of their double rifles, nor scratch them with their rings. This one thin leather glove would also be a good accessory for my style of shooting stick use. I can't miss!
This Michael Jackson/Mark Sullivan style glove on one fist is also good for fending off some of the less evil thorns along the way.

I like sticks so much that I made my own set to use at the range. Bamboo poles from the garden center and a blown bicycle tire look original and work just fine. Yes, I put my hand on top of the tripod style. My bipod is the Stoney Point sittin' length that I really enjoy for stalkin' and sneakin'. I shoot much better with them than I can with any of the formal shooting positions . . . except prone and I just don't fancy my .450 Rigby prone!

John, I am certainly no expert so I hesitated to post.
But I have found that there is a "sweet spot" when using sticks. If I position to far forward on the sticks I tend to shoot low and too far back on the sticks I have a tendency to shoot high.
When I first started using sticks - I din't care for them because I was uncomfortable. It was new. I found myself discouraged because I knew I could shoot better than I experienced with sticks. So there I was....back at a newbie point. I think that using sticks are like adding any new skill. Just do it - a lot! You will soon learn the exact height that you need the sticks and the exact pivot point that's right for you.
So here's the good part - you have a reason to shoot more. yippee!! have fun with it


Melody
Long Grass

JohnT- The "correct height" would be where the sticks allow you to rest the rifle at the same position or height you would be if shooting offhand.

John

John,
In the marksmanship training I've received, one will generally group higher when shooting from a seated position off sandbags compared to field positions (sporter barreled big calibers more so than heavy barrel mid calibers). This has proven true w/ me and quite a few others I have observed over the years. I'm told this has alot to do w/ the difference in the amount of muzzle flip.

When I sight in my big bore hunting rifles, I do so from the most stable field position I normally use. For what you describe, I'd adjust your zero for shooting offhand aided w/ support. Confirm your zero by shooting from a few different field positons to verify you're centered up. Save the bench for accuracy/load development.

later,
Gary

Jaco hit the nail on the head, a low shot indicates recoil anticipation and a tightening of the entire hand while pulling the trigger, thus pushing the muzzle downward. The amount of flexiability in the sticks determine how low the shot actually goes. Its a type of flinch although its not hard to cure.............JJ

Thanks all. Will practice further and see if I can get it right.

Those of you going on Safari soon make sure you sight in with sticks too & know where you're hitting!

Meanwhile I will pay more attention to practicing field positions from now on instead of concentrating on itty bitty groups from the bench. Always knew I had to do that (but no major hunts soon) but I will emphasize it more after this experience.

Regards
JohnT

John,

Compared to a bench, I shoot low off of sticks as well. The reason is that the entire shot and follow-through (initial and during recoil) is quite different on sticks than off the bench. I am not sure about anyone else but my experience shooting low off sticks it is NOT because I flinch. I shoot a lot off of both the bench and sticks and it is consistent - sticks are low. My recommendation would be to establish your zeros in whatever context you intend to take your shots (off-hand, sticks, etc.).

Also, just wanted to make sure that you are resting the forearm on the sticks and not your barrel. I have seen the latter and it changes the barrel's normal vibration pattern and will likely effect the shot.

Good luck,
Doug