A question for you learned folks with experience with both, which of these two is harder to stop in a charge? Given speed, size of the vital zone, ability to absorb punishment, etc.

It's a given that if either is hit in the brain the point is moot, but the recent OLN episode where a bull elephant charged and BOTH PHs missed the brain and the elephant atill folded, just made me wonder. jorge

Buffalo. More determend, harder to turn.

Elephant can be turned with a shot in the face and not a hit...But if in the thick jess they can glide thru and be on you before you can get your gun up..
Tuskless eles and cows are another story...Maternal instinct and being bullied around and always last to eat...
Buf seem to have an unlimited supply of adrenalin or courage...If wounded They can become cunning and almost indestructable..
I faced a mock charge by an ele in Zim... Then faced a full blown charge of a bull ele in the Selous in August with Pierre van Tonder...He started at 60 yds turned right at us tucked his truck against his chest and came on... I threw down the video camera to my wife and grabbed the double...We yelled at him and Pierre fired the in your face shot at 25 yards...I asked him where was line was drawn?? Thirty feet, I figured that, I said..My wife words are pretty clean but after the charge she is on tape saying " holy shit "...

Mike

Ah, a trick question.

It is unlikely a buff will charge unless wounded. Elephant will charge unwounded, which may account for many "bluff" charges.

Never have been charged by a buff, so I don't know, but from what I have heard they are determined beasts, as Retreever said, and the target for stopping them or killing them is a lot smaller.

Sometimes you have to throw a lot of lead at an elephant to stop or turn them.

Well I was charged by a buffalo in the Sapi safari area in 2002. He had already absorbed two .500NE and four .458WM's by the time he had decided to "settle up" the score. I stopped him at 30 paces in the jesse with both barrels from a .500NE If you think it was fun...think again! I guess you know which one gets my vote.

Geronimo

Jorge, I have fired exactly two shots into the heart/lung area of a friends elephant, when the first shot didn't hit the brain, but turned the bull. I fired as did the PH into the H/L as he turned, but my friend found the brain with his second shot from quartering away shot to the back of the head dropping him in a cloud of dust. That is the extent of my Elephant shooting! However I've seen about 40 ele taken, mostly on film, but about ten in person. I find the big slap in the face of an elephant will often turn him stopping a charge. That is not to say it kills him, just turns him. That is a small sample, so may not mean much!

Buffalo, however, as Will says rarely charge for any reason, unlike elephant, and the buff is usually wounded in some way when he charges. I find if the right place is hit,durring a charge, he's down in the dirt, but again,that rarely happens, and IMO, once he decides to take you on, you have to kill him, or someone is going to get hurt, or killed, because unless he is hit so hard he is out of service, he will not stop.

I don't have any desire to do a "hand to hand" with either one of these critters, because I fear the result will not be pleasnt !

Nobody probably is an expert on this question as all those are on the injured list. Anyway lets add the lion to the list to make the exercise complete. Had a charge from both buff and ele which terminated at 10 yds, but have no experience with lion in a charge, thank goodness.
In order of difficulty: (terrifying-big trouble-bad) IMHO
Given Speed: (Lion-buff-ele)

Size of vital zone: (Lion-buff-ele)

Ability to Absorb Punishment: (Buff-ele-Lion)

Warning-noise: (Ele-Buff-Lion)

Obscured Vision: (Lion-grass, ele-jesse, buff)

Injury-death: (Ele-buff-Lion)

Stopper Rifle Required: (Ele-Buff-Lion)

Fear Factor: (Ele-Lion-Buff)

Actually, I lied about the fear factor as I'm afraid of all of these in a charge and its a good reason to buy or built that big bore rifle you always wanted,

Dak

Dak; How do YOU know I'm having one built??? jorge

Jorge:

You are tranparent. Get the Lott, not the Weatherby, though. The .458 Lott is all anyone ever needs and you'll survive shooting it.

As to the other, what a great question. The brain of an elephant is the size of a loaf of bread, a buff.. the size of a flattened soft ball and a lion a baseball. None of it is easy.

I am not sure about elephants, but, I can assure you one can drop a buffalo with a shot in the head that did NOT hit the brain!

I have shot a number of bulls in the head, many times not touching the brains at all.

In every instance, the bull dropped to the shot and remained down. Most of the times they died from loss of blood. But, on a few occasions, from additional shots.

Bottom line is, from my own experience, if a buffalo is charging, HIT HIM IN THE HEAD! That is your best chance of stopping him.

This year I shot a bull smack on the shoulder. The bullet must have hit something on the way, and turned side ways. It pulverized his shoulder to pieces, turning it into a bloody mush.

He ran a few yards and was hoppling along. Luckily he is in a clear area, about 100 yards away. His body was at an angle, but his head was turned towards us, and by the look of things, he would have been a perfect candidate for Mark Sullivan. Because I am sure he would have charged us if we got closer. A bullet into his eye brow dropped him in his tracks, to never get up again.

Another bull came back to investigate, and as he saw us he turned towards us looking at us with his nose up. This offered a perfect shot into his chest. I aimed just under his chin, dropping him with a frontal spine shot.

The only charge I have faced was a Russian boar that committed suicide on the spear I had pointed in his direction.

The lion charge would give me more heebie jeebies: Faster moving smaller lights-out switch to toggle.

Elephant and buffalo should be a piece of cake by comparison.

If a gay blade like Markie Mark Sullivan can do a buffalo, anyone can.

No, no Lott for me, but I've also discounted the Weatherby. Liking the Dakota a whole Lott as I can always load it down whereas the Lott is maxed out to get 2300 fps. jorge

Rip, during a charge, nothing is a piece of cake!

Saeed, what you mentioned, the frontal spine shot is my favorite frontal shot. You have a box, 6" wide by 10" tall under the chin and it it drops them like they fell in a hole! Much easier if the buff is facing directly toward you.

Geronimo

quote:

Originally posted by Geronomo:
Rip, during a charge, nothing is a piece of cake!

Saeed, what you mentioned, the frontal spine shot is my favorite frontal shot. You have a box, 6" wide by 10" tall under the chin and it it drops them like they fell in a hole! Much easier if the buff is facing directly toward you.

Geronimo

I thought the at the bottom of my post would cover the "piece of cake" comment too.

The neck shot, from whatever angle would not be the thing to go for in a charge though, just to clarify, as I am sure you did not mean to purposely imply that.

Great if he is just standing there looking at you as if you owed him money.

A low miss on a brain shot will hopefully get the spine in a charge, or the hunter will be eating dirt instead of cake.

My one cape buffalo was a one shot kill. My two water buffalo both required a neck shot after the first chest shot.

One bison was a one shot kill. Then there was the fleeing bison that required a Portuguese-Texan Heart Shot after the initial chest shot. This was a reverse-charge.

And this brings up the corollary question, a situation more common: the fleeing wounded animal.

Which is easier to stop: with a Portuguese-Texan Heart Shot (buffalo), or hip shot (elephant)?

Or do you go for the foramen magnum and atlas-axis head/neck shot on an elephant if you have any chance as it turns to go?

IMO, the target for a buffalo is, if faceing you, as they usually are when chargeing, is a 6", to 8" wide box that extends from just under the boss, to mid way down the neck. This also applies if the buff is standing looking at you with his head up, looking down his nose at you! This covers the only CNS that is available to you from the dirrect frontal shot!
If he is chargeing in a simi curve, as they sometimes do, then the brain shot is out,but a head shot can stop him, momentarily, without hitting the brain, if you don't hit the horn/boss, giveing you time to get one in him from a better angle, and the only real switch you have is the spine,from a quartering side shot. This is a difficult shot to make, but if that is all you have, OH WELL..................

I've only had one charge from a Buffalo, in all the years of hunting, and that one was unprovoked, other than we got too close, not knowing he was there. So it isn't something you will alawys be faced with!

... This brings up the corollary question, a situation more common: the fleeing wounded animal.

Which is easier to stop: a Portuguese-Texan Heart Shot buffalo, or hip shot elephant?

Or do you go for the foramen magnum and atlas-axis head/neck shot on an elephant if you have any chance as it turns to go?

Rip,

I have only shot one elephant and wounded a buffalo but the hip shot stops an elephant I can tell you.

As does a hit anywhere in the head with a 450 Dakota.

This was a tuskless cow, not a bull, but very close range and I felt well armed with a 450, and able to "rock her world" with each shot.

The hip shot on going away elephant is probably alot easier shot than tha tlas/axis neck shot. The bony pelvis, esp late season when they are thinner, is a very prominant target!

Andy

Andy,
I'll go for the ball in the socket. Once slowed down by that hip shot, I will then pose in front of the three-legged elephant, like 500 grains' crippled elephant charge shot with Buzz. Maybe I can make it look like it is charging me while I cooly take the frontal brain shot, as the PH stands beside me in the frame, inspecting his manicure, with is double rifle at port in the African carry.

A hip shot could have smashing results.

I have never had to shoot a buffalo that was charging me but did shoot one that was chasing a tracker so it really doesn't count as it was a mostly broad side running shot. In my somewhat limited experiences with charging elephants, they can usually be at least turned with a suitably heavy bullet to the head but at least from what I have read, a buff is less likely to be turned with a head shot that misses the brain. Once hit in the head an elephant seems to forget what it was trying to do and runs off to escape. A buff usually doesn't forget and even if you knock it down it will jump up and continue the charge. So I would have to say that the buff charge is harder to stop than an elephant charge. On a going away shot on a wounded animal things are different. Much depends on how acute the angle is on the escaping animal. If an elephant is running directly away from you, your choices are limited to a hip or spine shot. The hip gives you a larger target than the spine so there is a greater margin for error on a hip shot. If it is angling away from you the rear brain shot is a possibility but IMHO is a poor choice. That is the most difficult of all brain shots and I would not advise it unless you are really close and the angle is just right. If the angle is right for that shot than a slanting shot into the heart/lung area is easy and again IMHO the preferred shot. If the ele is quartering away a heart/lung shot is a poor choice in that you have to go through the vegetation filled stomach and possibly part of the thigh muscle to reach the heart/lung area. In spite of what you hear about the amazing pwenetration of modern wonder solids out of the latest super stopping calibers, few if any calibers/bullet combinations can be counted on to provide the amount of penetration necessary to accomplish this shot. Better the hip shot.

On buff most good solids whether steel jacketed or monometal flat nosed solids from good penetrating calibers such as the 375 H&H, 4216s, 458s etc. will have enough penetration to reach the heart lung area on a buff from rear raking shots even if they go through a ham and stomach before reaching the heart/lung area. Even some of the better soft nosed bullets have eough penetration to do the same.

4365H&H

Jorge,

If you don't get a Lott, I'll never feed you ribs again. Next time you come to my house bring a buffalo and and elephant. We'll turn dem sumbitches loose and shoot them with my Lott and see which one goes down the easiest. Don't that make sense??

Oh man, that's blackmail! Those WERE the best ribs I've ever eaten..Rib-daddy I'll get a 45 eventually, but it's going to be a while. jorge

Hot Damn, Dale when they arrive count me in..I bring my Lott, Jorge shot it here in Pa.

Mike

Mike,

Jorge came to my house, shot my Lott a few times, ate a bunch or ribs and is still thinking about buying a 460 Weatherby. Must be the recoil. That's the only thing I can think of.

Having spent 59 years.... it will be 60 next week.. I've tried ribs in various joints and homes. There can be no doubt that 1115 cooks the best by about 10-fold.

As to stopping elephant/buff/lion, in my limited experience, I'd vote for lion/buffalo/elephant in that order due to the relative difficult of hitting the CNS... but I'll bet that if the respective animal actually counts coup on you, the elephant is the most consistant killer.

I know folks who have been mauled by cats and/or gored by buffalo, but never met anyone who was converted into toe jam by an elephant.

I seen the OLN episode where the elephant folded and both guys missed the brain but the shock of the second bullet hitting the head knocked the Bull down take a didnt kill it then the 2 proceeded to finish it off, seems like it take a bit more for an Elephant to get up when its down compared to a buff.