Once they had him cornered it would have been more of a challenge if they had approached him on foot

The Bushman did all of the "hunting" and the other two were "shooters" shooting from the protection of a truck.

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:
Seriously guy's would you really call this HUNTING??

I'm sure that it was exciting as hell but you didn't hunt this cat...you simply shot it from the back of a truck! There was even a nice short fence back there to keep you safe.

If you were following the dogs on foot and not from the comfort/safety of the truck then I would say that you did the ultimate dangerous game hunt as surely you would have faced a point blank charge/shot. The way it was done....sorry fellas to burst your bubble but I was rooting for the Leopard.

I'm sure that I will get flamed from some of you but this is my opinion....you posted on a public forum so you have to expect comments.

I have no problem with your hunt since it is legal but don't pat yourself on the back doing hi-fives thinking that you faced death...because you took the safe way out.

You actually cheated yourself ouf of a legit hunting experience.

As you say the above is your opinion and you are intitaled to it. It seems a little disingenious to call foul about shooting from a truck in the open on a mad leopard when most take their leopard from a blind sitting in a lawn chair with a rifle rest, over bait.

To each his own! This was a PAC animal that had to be taken out, but you are all wet about the danger being negated by the little fence around the back of the hunting car. If that leopard had not taken a full blast by Rann before he got to that truck the leopard would have been inside that fence with the shooters, and more than one of these people would have been in serious trouble. An unwounded leopard would not have to CLIMB the truck, but would simply have jumped into the truck in one bound.

In one frame Rann fired one shot that went right through the square frame of the gate.

If these people had been on foot with those shotguns someone would have been in real trouble, because the leopard took about six or seven shots to stop, and he would have been on top of someone in that party if on the ground and shooting a leopard off someone with a shotgun would have been a disaster! A leopard is hard to stop with a shotgun under any condition, and two people shooting at that leopard under these conditions was almost not enough, and if they had been on the ground it wouldn't have been enough without someone getting hurt badly and maybe killed either by the cat or the other shotgun while trying to shoot the cat off him.

Hunting a leopard with dogs in country where he cant tree, is a sure fire way of getting someone hurt or killed if followed on foot.

Of all the big five the leopard is the animal most likely to get to you in a charge, and if approached on foot behind dogs will always charge humans in country where he can't get into a tall tree! I think if you had approached this cat on foot behind the dogs in the same place, your take on the outcome would be quite different than your post above would indicate! I can assure you Jeff Rann wouldn’t allow you to wade into that cat on foot!

The above film is a fine indication why a full 90% of all leopards are taken from a blind over bait!

Monday morning quarter-backing is a more safe way to state what should have been done, than to make the call under fire!

.............................................No flame, just stating another opinion!
............................................................................................................

Mac, If you read over one of my posts then you will see that I have no problem with their method since the animal needed to be killed...trapping, etc. whatever....they were simply removing a pest the same way you would kill a problem racoon in your backyard. If you shot a racoon out of your bedroom window with a 22 would you call that "hunting"?? I wouldn't.

The whole bait vs. dogs is a whole other discussion but I just don't call shooting a Leopard from the truck like they did "hunting".

It deminishes the word.

BTW..my opinion does not apply to the Bushman trackers...how they were able to track this animal for 3 days in that terrain, men like us will never know.

Just my 2 cents.

Mac: With all due respect, that is not an even comparison. With baiting you are matching your wits against the cat's in trying to get that cat to come back to the bait, and they always don't come back to the bait as we leopard hunters know. Here, they literally chased down the cat, at high speed I might add, and then shot it when it turned on them and attached the truck. Some will say that was a hunt-good for them-book one with Jeff Rann while you can. Others will say it was a shoot-and wouldn't book something like that in a million years. We all know the facts. We have all made up our minds. No one is going to change anyone's opinion. This is like a Bible bash-all the arguing in the world does nothing but solidify the other's position. I respect your opinion as I do Frank's. I personally know Frank(Leopardtrack) and he is a seasoned leopard hunter and knows leopard hunting. He has also been involved in assisting in leopard research in Zimbabwe. Ryan Trenka's definitely gotten his money's worth in posting this on AR!

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:
Mac, If you read over one of my posts then you will see that I have no problem with their method since the animal needed to be killed...trapping, etc. whatever....they were simply removing a pest the same way you would kill a problem racoon in your backyard. If you shot a racoon out of your bedroom window with a 22 would you call that "hunting"?? I wouldn't.

The whole bait vs. dogs is a whole other discussion but I just don't call shooting a Leopard from the truck like they did "hunting".

It deminishes the word.

BTW..my opinion does not apply to the Bushman trackers...how they were able to track this animal for 3 days in that terrain, men like us will never know.

Just my 2 cents.

LT, I understood your position from the start, because you explained it well in your post above this one!

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
Mac: With all due respect, that is not an even comparison. With baiting you are matching your wits against the cat's in trying to get that cat to come back to the bait, and they always don't come back to the bait as we leopard hunters know.

UEG, I understand both situations, and my point was not to put down any type of Leopard hunting. I know that knowing where and what type of baits to place a bait is not something that is done haphazardly, if success is to be expected. I also understand the most will normally make two or three safaris before the connect with a shootable leopard. Never let it be said that I consider bait hunting of leopard to be easy.

However you must know that in the Kalahari the normal way to hunt leopard has always been to take a couple of bushman trackers on the track trotting along on the track with the hunting car following along behind till the leopard was spotted. The bushman then jump on the back of the car because the leopard will always charge the people exposed on top of the truck. My question is, how is that different from the use of dogs instead of bushman? In Namibia, and Botswana this has always been considered about the only way to hunt leopard in that low bush open country. IMO is simply another way to hunt leopard, along with baiting, and dogs. Assuredly none of these methods will be the right one for some because things are done differently in different parts of the world, and as you say nothing will make all hunters agree on which is the PROPER WAY!

For several years I hunted the New Mexico mountain country black bear, and lion with a pack of walker plot mixes and Black & tan hounds, and I can assure you that you don’t have to get very old before you can’t do that. Staying up with those hounds going across canyon after canyon at 9000 feet above sea level was damn sure hunting.

Many people who had never tried following dogs on the trail told me that these bear and lions didn’t have a chance hunted with dogs, and that is total BS, Not ten hunters who hunt Africa every year could even keep up with those hounds and the dogs couldn’t hold an animal in a tree for long enough for the hunter to get there. If treed on the ground which is the only way a leopard could be brought to bay in the terrain in that film,two or three dogs would be seriously injured or killed before you could get there. Even in the hunting car the people still don’t get to the leopard any faster than the dogs, so I guess this is an indictment on the hunting with dogs as well!

I'm not saying any of the methods are better than the other, but I'm not condemning any of the methods either! If any or all of these mathod are your choice who am I to say nay?

In any event I say hunt your conscience, and be happy with your trophy, my opinion nor anyone els's matters to you because it is your hunt, not thiers!

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:
Mac, If you read over one of my posts then you will see that I have no problem with their method since the animal needed to be killed...trapping, etc. whatever....they were simply removing a pest the same way you would kill a problem racoon in your backyard. If you shot a racoon out of your bedroom window with a 22 would you call that "hunting"?? I wouldn't.


The whole bait vs. dogs is a whole other discussion but I just don't call shooting a Leopard from the truck like they did "hunting".

It deminishes the word.

BTW..my opinion does not apply to the Bushman trackers...how they were able to track this animal for 3 days in that terrain, men like us will never know.

Just my 2 cents.

call me stupid but i never equated a raccoon with a leopard. they just seem a bit different.so sitting in a camp chair with the rifle laying in a dead solid rest( hell you don't even need to hold it- it isn't going anywhere and it's already pointed right at the bait- which by the way is about 75 yards away or less) is sporting?? lots of folks here complain about shooting plains game at a waterhole.i guess a bait tree with an impala hanging in it is different,eh? and if you can keep up with Bushmen trackers and a pack of dogs running across the kalahari, you should have entered the NYC Marathon. oops, my bad- it was cancelled.

Problem with all of this is anyone can rationalize any situation to say it is hunting, and have. We could go on and on ad naseum about hunting from blinds, using vehicles, hunting fenced concessions, using roads, firearms, spotting scopes, hunting decoys, scent controlled clothing, etc, etc, etc. Bottom line with all of this is simply just this: Does it float your personal boat? Can you live with it every time you look at the trophy? And, can you honestly explain to those that ask, just how you took the trophy? After all, you and only you have to live with it. Beyond that no one else really cares do they? Mac: I agree with your comments. Hunting on foot behind a pack of dogs is a real experience. While growing up, I had a great uncle, Edward Jones of Thistle, Utah, that regularly hunted mountain lion, and in fact, kept one caged up in his front yard at all times to use in training his dogs. He would quite often tree a mountain lion with the dogs and then two of them would lasso it out of the cedar tree-just for fun! Try that one on for size!

It was nice seeing those Italian semi-auto shotguns in action.I`ve hunted small game with Berretta shotguns and they are for the most part reliable if you feed them quality ammo.

Looks like a rush to me. Knowing alittle about hounds and cats, treeless country like that ends only one way, with a bayupt that will most likely end in dogs getting killed.
The lack of trees also never allows the hunters to catch up to a bayed cat.
If this cat needed to die the truck was the only answer.
I would have done this hunt over a baited leopard hunt any day.
How many time are shot leopard, lions and followed up by the back of a track. Dark or not I always thought this was the chickens way out.

If you are going to hunt dangerous game from a blind and bait you should atleast have the balls to follow up the shot cat on foot.
What is the difference here, given the opportunity I am sure the hunter and PH would have exited the truck, the cat gave them no chance.
Ryan was the intent to shoot the cat from the truck?

quote:

If you are going to hunt dangerous game from a blind and bait you should at least have the balls to follow up the shot cat on foot.

Putting a thin screen of grass between you and maybe a Lion(s), maybe a pride, maybe a female with cubs is exhilarating. There are very few who do not opt to follow up on foot and this situation is potentially far more dangerous and definitely more sporting than blasting away at a cat with a brace of semi automatics from the back of a truck.

A noble animal and his butchers.
What a shame!

Hunting? - Never!

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:
Mac, If you read over one of my posts then you will see that I have no problem with their method since the animal needed to be killed...trapping, etc. whatever....they were simply removing a pest the same way you would kill a problem racoon in your backyard. If you shot a racoon out of your bedroom window with a 22 would you call that "hunting"?? I wouldn't.


The whole bait vs. dogs is a whole other discussion but I just don't call shooting a Leopard from the truck like they did "hunting".

It deminishes the word.

BTW..my opinion does not apply to the Bushman trackers...how they were able to track this animal for 3 days in that terrain, men like us will never know.

Just my 2 cents.

call me stupid but i never equated a raccoon with a leopard. they just seem a bit different.so sitting in a camp chair with the rifle laying in a dead solid rest( hell you don't even need to hold it- it isn't going anywhere and it's already pointed right at the bait- which by the way is about 75 yards away or less) is sporting?? lots of folks here complain about shooting plains game at a waterhole.i guess a bait tree with an impala hanging in it is different,eh? and if you can keep up with Bushmen trackers and a pack of dogs running across the kalahari, you should have entered the NYC Marathon. oops, my bad- it was cancelled.

I am not sure if you are reffering to one of those camp chair and rest on the frame of the blind set ups but I think shooting offhand is steadier than one of those.I used one to shoot my leopard and that was one of the worst rests I ever used.Shooting from a limb and kneeling would be a million times steadier.The frame holding the blind was far from sturdy and the pivoting swivel the rifle was attached to made things worst.I will never want to use one of those again.The camp chair is not the steadiest thing either.Any shift in position and the support goes out from under you.A rock or stump is far better.

Shootaway:

quote:

I am not sure if you are reffering to one of those camp chair and rest on the frame of the blind set ups but I think shooting offhand is steadier than one of those.I used one to shoot my leopard and that was one of the worst rests I ever used.Shooting from a limb and kneeling would be a million times steadier.The frame holding the blind was far from sturdy and the pivoting swivel the rifle was attached to made things worst.I will never want to use one of those again.The camp chair is not the steadiest thing either.Any shift in position and the support goes out from under you.A rock or stump is far better.

From what you have just described, you are implying your PH on that hunt had not the slightest clue on how to build a blind and set up a sturdy shooting rest the way it suited you though you should have tried it for size first.
Pole Sana!

I tried it and the chair was first in a depression or slope in the ground and that made things almost impossible.We filled in the depression then I noticed that the frame bar could use a support beam in the middle but it seemed that we had no time...but what I am saying is that a camp chair and a portable frame and blind set up is not a gaurantee for steadiness.Nothing is more steady than resting a rifle on a rock or limb and planting your ass down on solid ground-I took a nice buff at 200yds this way using open sights.It could of been my fault if I said the rest was OK-I can`t remember.

and the bullshit just keeps piling up.... i never realized that buffalo sniping with open sights was popular in Canada.

better than a grown man hunting squirrels with air rifles

Was reminded of Teddy Roosevelt writing of coursing everything from turkeys to lions from horseback. Having not done anything like it, it is not in my comfort zone and it seems like the animal would not have as sporting a chance as with other methods. However, I am easily able to make the distinction between sport hunting and taking a problem animal.

Much more sporting than shooting pigs from a helicopter - but much the same motivation, and the element of excitement comes from experiencing something unique (not to mention the adrenaline dump that comes from the inherent danger).

I don't think everything fits into nice neat different packages.

And though I have sat over bait a goodly number of days and nights, this doesn't offend my sensibilities.

Dave

Maybe we should just booby trap a bait, drink beer at the fire, go to sleep, wake up and go collect the dead Leopard...

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
better than a grown man hunting squirrels with air rifles

your are right. i probably should use a scoped .300 Win Mag-since it is the ideal rifle for a dog hunt for leopard( at least according to an unnamed poster from the great white North), it should work equally well for squirrels....do you remember that famous post, shootaway?

quote:

Originally posted by Acer:


I don't think everything fits into nice neat different packages.



Dave

Aint that the truth?

Fairgame,

Maybe we can borrow the "Pope Mobile" for our next exciting Leopard "Hunt".

Since it's totally enclosed in bulletproof plastic, we can even "Hunt" with the airconditioner on.

Whatdaya think??

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

If you are going to hunt dangerous game from a blind and bait you should at least have the balls to follow up the shot cat on foot.

Putting a thin screen of grass between you and maybe a Lion(s), maybe a pride, maybe a female with cubs is exhilarating. There are very few who do not opt to follow up on foot and this situation is potentially far more dangerous and definitely more sporting than blasting away at a cat with a brace of semi automatics from the back of a truck.

quote:

I'm not saying any of the methods are better than the other, but I'm not condemning any of the methods either! If any or all of these mathod are your choice who am I to say nay?

In any event I say hunt your conscience, and be happy with your trophy, my opinion nor anyone els's matters to you because it is your hunt, not thiers!

Above is probably the best statement made on this thread.

For me personally knowing hunters and PH's that have done this type of hunt the only part that I don't like is that the client might not even get a shot at the cat let alone the first or killing shot.

As for following up a possibly wounded cat with a vehicle it would seem that some might think this is not proper and is the cowards way of doing it. To me the PH's first responsibility is to not get his client killed or maimed. If the terrain will allow which it often it will not using a vehicle for the follow up is unquestionably the way to go.

Three very experienced PH's that I have hunted with Barrie Duckworth, Arthue Taylor and Johnny Du Plooy having 25-40 years experience all use a vehicle if they can. One has a seriously scarred arm from holding off a wounded leopard while Cotton Gordon shot it off him at point blank range. I don't think anyone would be silly enough to accuse these guys of being cowards.

Mark

I wouldn't have a problem with sorting out a WOUNDED Leopard, especially if the client was not on top of his game, etc But this Leopard was not.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:

quote:

I'm not saying any of the methods are better than the other, but I'm not condemning any of the methods either! If any or all of these mathod are your choice who am I to say nay?

In any event I say hunt your conscience, and be happy with your trophy, my opinion nor anyone els's matters to you because it is your hunt, not thiers!

Above is probably the best statement made on this thread.

For me personally knowing hunters and PH's that have done this type of hunt the only part that I don't like is that the client might not even get a shot at the cat let alone the first or killing shot.

As for following up a possibly wounded cat with a vehicle it would seem that some might think this is not proper and is the cowards way of doing it. To me the PH's first responsibility is to not get his client killed or maimed. If the terrain will allow which it often it will not using a vehicle for the follow up is unquestionably the way to go.

Three very experienced PH's that I have hunted with Barrie Duckworth, Arthue Taylor and Johnny Du Plooy having 25-40 years experience all use a vehicle if they can. One has a seriously scarred arm from holding off a wounded leopard while Cotton Gordon shot it off him at point blank range. I don't think anyone would be silly enough to accuse these guys of being cowards.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Shootaway:

quote:

I am not sure if you are reffering to one of those camp chair and rest on the frame of the blind set ups but I think shooting offhand is steadier than one of those.I used one to shoot my leopard and that was one of the worst rests I ever used.Shooting from a limb and kneeling would be a million times steadier.The frame holding the blind was far from sturdy and the pivoting swivel the rifle was attached to made things worst.I will never want to use one of those again.The camp chair is not the steadiest thing either.Any shift in position and the support goes out from under you.A rock or stump is far better.

From what you have just described, you are implying your PH on that hunt had not the slightest clue on how to build a blind and set up a sturdy shooting rest the way it suited you though you should have tried it for size first.
Pole Sana!

This is the exact blind Shootaway shot his leopard from. Was owned by Rich Tabor, now owned by Blake Wilhelmi. I shot my leopard from it in June of 2011. It is rock solid. You put your rifle in the double supported rest, and your elbow on the cross support on the side. As you can see, it has a substantial metal frame. The cross bars and the rifle support can be moved by sliding the connectors, then locked into place with a wing nut. The support can be placed in the exact position you need it for to make the shot. The side support can be slid into the exact position to rest your elbow. Rock solid.

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:
Fairgame,

Maybe we can borrow the "Pope Mobile" for our next exciting Leopard "Hunt".

Since it's totally enclosed in bulletproof plastic, we can even "Hunt" with the airconditioner on.

Whatdaya think??

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

If you are going to hunt dangerous game from a blind and bait you should at least have the balls to follow up the shot cat on foot.

Putting a thin screen of grass between you and maybe a Lion(s), maybe a pride, maybe a female with cubs is exhilarating. There are very few who do not opt to follow up on foot and this situation is potentially far more dangerous and definitely more sporting than blasting away at a cat with a brace of semi automatics from the back of a truck.

Leopard track-

since you are such a'purist"

keep us updated on your swim to africa
next time--since you would never use anything like airplanes or autos on a hunt

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Shootaway:

quote:

I am not sure if you are reffering to one of those camp chair and rest on the frame of the blind set ups but I think shooting offhand is steadier than one of those.I used one to shoot my leopard and that was one of the worst rests I ever used.Shooting from a limb and kneeling would be a million times steadier.The frame holding the blind was far from sturdy and the pivoting swivel the rifle was attached to made things worst.I will never want to use one of those again.The camp chair is not the steadiest thing either.Any shift in position and the support goes out from under you.A rock or stump is far better.

From what you have just described, you are implying your PH on that hunt had not the slightest clue on how to build a blind and set up a sturdy shooting rest the way it suited you though you should have tried it for size first.
Pole Sana!

This is the exact blind Shootaway shot his leopard from. Was owned by Rich Tabor, now owned by Blake Wilhelmi. I shot my leopard from it in June of 2011. It is rock solid. You put your rifle in the double supported rest, and your elbow on the cross support on the side. As you can see, it has a substantial metal frame. The cross bars and the rifle support can be moved by sliding the connectors, then locked into place with a wing nut. The support can be placed in the exact position you need it for to make the shot. The side support can be slid into the exact position to rest your elbow. Rock solid.

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It doesn`t look like the same set-up to the pig.

It's the same frame, just not the cloth backing. I looked it over again two weeks ago. It is a different chair than I used however. Looks like the rifle swivel has been modified as well but if I remember correctly, Rich had that rifle rest also and could switch them out.

Here it is being set up again two weeks ago on a Hyena blind.

Last comment. Not going down this road again!! I don't need another "Award" from Rusty!!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
It's the same frame, just not the cloth backing. I looked it over again two weeks ago. It is a different chair than I used however. Looks like the rifle swivel has been modified as well but if I remember correctly, Rich had that rifle rest also and could switch them out.

Unbelievably BLIND!!

Cross, that was such elequent writing...did you ever consider writing a book or magazine artical?? You could be the next Boddington for the young generation

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:
Fairgame,

Maybe we can borrow the "Pope Mobile" for our next exciting Leopard "Hunt".

Since it's totally enclosed in bulletproof plastic, we can even "Hunt" with the airconditioner on.

Whatdaya think??

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

If you are going to hunt dangerous game from a blind and bait you should at least have the balls to follow up the shot cat on foot.

Putting a thin screen of grass between you and maybe a Lion(s), maybe a pride, maybe a female with cubs is exhilarating. There are very few who do not opt to follow up on foot and this situation is potentially far more dangerous and definitely more sporting than blasting away at a cat with a brace of semi automatics from the back of a truck.

Leopard track-

since you are such a'purist"

keep us updated on your swim to africa
next time--since you would never use anything like airplanes or autos on a hunt

keep crying sucker

Take Care my Friend

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:





keep crying sucker

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
better than a grown man hunting squirrels with air rifles

your are right. i probably should use a scoped .300 Win Mag-since it is the ideal rifle for a dog hunt for leopard( at least according to an unnamed poster from the great white North), it should work equally well for squirrels....do you remember that famous post, shootaway?

Unnamed poster? My name is shootaway!!

Very nice leopard!

I know Ryan personally and he is a stand up guy that works harder than most and would not associate himself or his camerawork with anyone that was not on the up and up as far as hunting. I have hunted several leopards with hounds and the bushman trackers and have run the tracks with them, it is the most intense hunting experience you can have in my opinion. These guys did nothing wrong and at least the cat was dealt with before anyone was hurt or killed. Nice work Ryan...

This proclaimed PAC Leopard was hunted down using a vehicle - legal or not?
Do the Botswana Game Laws make an exception to the rule if it involves a PAC animal?

As it stands, with no mention of PAC animals being indicated, the Botswana Game Laws state:

"Shooting from a vehicle is not permitted, though the vehicle can be used to reach the area from where hunting on foot can begin".