The ‘first blood rule’ – the animal ‘belongs’ to the first man to hit it...

Is this an ethical hunter’s tradition? What happens if the second shot killed the animal and the bullet wasn’t from the same weapon...?

Does the PH pay for the trophy if he administered the second shot; delivering the ‘kill shot’ or does the onus falls back on the client who took ‘first blood’?

Does the ethical hunters rule not say; the moment an animal has been wounded, any effort must be made to end its life as quickly and humanely as possible.

Did the PH not only react on what he was trained for? Most Plains game hunting clients always say no, I am not going to pay if i don’t kill the animal myself, but on dangerous game safari’s he wants you to do a backup shot – Just in case something goes wrong...

I know I am generalizing and cannot speak for each and everyone out there but my opinion is that the ‘first blood' rule must apply – the animal belongs to the first man to hit it.

I would in general say that an animal belong to the person who delivered the "kill shot".
In a PH/client situation I would say that the client need to pay the trophy fee if he wounds an animal, even though the PH delivered the "kill shot". No doubt.

Every animal deserves to be hunted as humanly as possible. But as a client I wouldn't quite feel it was my animal if I just wounded it with the first shot, and it was later killed by the PH. I would definatly pay the trophy fee though, and appreciate the PH "cleaning up" after my bad work.

Just my humble opinion.

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Most Plains game hunting clients always say no, I am not going to pay if i don’t kill the animal myself

This is the sort of client who has no business going hunting.

If the rules are pointed out in the beginning then there should be minimal issues (blood =$$). However I know I would not enjoy someone "opening up" seconds after I shot.
If a follow up then is required, then It makes sense that if there are more weapons available, then for the animals sake they should be carried.

Just one of those issues the Client must resolve with his PH before the hunt begins. If a client is involved in the First Blood scenario - the animal is his; period.

One of the challenges as a PH is taking novice hunters out. Personally I love teaching them how it is done, and seeing them do it. Like most things in life - patience. The true PH will end up with a client for life, and a friend.

The normal rule is if the hunters bullet produces paint or pins, then the trophy fee is payable. (Although there might possibly be a bit of leeway if it's just a few pins)

Just one of many things that should be agreed in writing in the safari contract and indemnity form before the hunt begins.

These might be of help to some members:

http://www.shakariconnection.com/hunt-contract.html

http://www.shakariconnection.com/hunt-indemnity.html

Clearly in every situation the rules are made to suit the conditions.

If you are shooting driven pheasants and break the leg of a bird going over you and it is then killed by your neighbour, it is considered his bird and an 'eye wipe' since you failed to kill it and he managed.

If you put a solid into the chest of an elephant and the PH follows up and drops it as it takes to its heels, it must still be your animal as the PH is just helping make sure you don't have aproblem to deal with later if your shot was not as good as you thought.

I think the client has to decide what he wants to hunt and then discuss how it will be done with the PH. If you knee-cap a warthog surely the PH is better off dropping it than you both watch it bolt and disappear down a hole? Still your animal.

If you have an impala in open territory you probably don't want your PH double tapping it as soon as your shot strikes the chest: just not necessary or desirable.

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Originally posted by Neil-PH:
The true PH will end up with a client for life, and a friend.

It's why I would see a price tag hanging from buff horns every time I shot!!

You shoot, you pay.

I paid half trophy fee for a three leg red hartebeest, with a wonderful trophy, previousy wounded by another hunter a pair of week before and already full paid.

Luckily I did not have this kind of problem because I could always follow the wounded animals.

I've seen a couple of DVDs where the PH is so quick to follow up that it sounds like an echo!
More "B-BANG" not "BANG------BANG"

I would have no issues with a follow up if really required, but that was just not on in my opinion.

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Originally posted by UKhunter:
I've seen a couple of DVDs where the PH is so quick to follow up that it sounds like an echo!
More "B-BANG" not "BANG------BANG"

I would have no issues with a follow up if really required, but that was just not on in my opinion.

FWIW, some hunters occasionally ask the PH to shoot on report and that might possibly be what you saw on the video.

A few years ago I conducted an early 2x1 (Texan) father and son hunt in the Selous and took the son into the long grass. We knew if we found a Buff it'd be a close - very close shot and he'd asked me to shoot on report if I thought it necessary......... We found a good 'un and as the range was just 4 yards, I reckon his asking me to shoot on report was very sensible.

Those Texans had BALLS!

To answer the original question, there is nothing to wonder about. Every safari company policy I've ever read indicates the trophy fee is owed for any animals killed or "wounded and lost." So, if you extend that to an animal a client has wounded, the trophy fee is owed regardless of whether he shoots it again, the PH shoots it later, or it is lost. I had this happen with Roy Vincent many years ago, and there was no question at all about how it was going to be handled. I'd badly shot a kudu bull, which headed off into some nearby hills. As we tracked it, we fanned out as we came to the ridgeline, and it so happened that when Roy crested the ridge, the kudu was right in front of him. I was probably 50 or so yards off to his left, and never knew the kudu was there. He promptly dispatched the bull, and there was never even the slightest doubt in my mind about how it was to be handled. And, that is the proper way.

Anyone who thinks they should not pay the trophy fee becuase a PH has to clean up their mess should stay home and hunt vicariously on the television.

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Originally posted by shakari:

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Originally posted by UKhunter:
I've seen a couple of DVDs where the PH is so quick to follow up that it sounds like an echo!
More "B-BANG" not "BANG------BANG"

I would have no issues with a follow up if really required, but that was just not on in my opinion.

FWIW, some hunters occasionally ask the PH to shoot on report and that might possibly be what you saw on the video.

A few years ago I conducted an early 2x1 (Texan) father and son hunt in the Selous and took the son into the long grass. We knew if we found a Buff it'd be a close - very close shot and he'd asked me to shoot on report if I thought it necessary......... We found a good 'un and as the range was just 4 yards, I reckon his asking me to shoot on report was very sensible.

Those Texans had BALLS!

hmmm... mental note to self. Talk to PH before hunt about filing those damn reports before he shoots. That bull is coming now... do you we really have to file that report in triplicate before the PH does something? Geez, I go to the bush to avoid office work.

So far it's been easy. Client wounds animal=trophy fee paid whether or not animal found.

What if client has a clean miss: PH puts in "backup" shot into escaping animal that is otherwise uninjured? Maybe more of a theoretical question than reality, because how do we know whether the animal was hit or not?

How about client wounds animal, PH doesn't shoot, animal escapes and the client actually ends up paying MORE then the trophy fee to make up for not being able to sell the meat.

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Originally posted by JohnHunt:
How about client wounds animal, PH doesn't shoot, animal escapes and the client actually ends up paying MORE then the trophy fee to make up for not being able to sell the meat.

John,

I've never known it to work like that.

Not all countries sell the meat anyway and in those that do, the landowner would accept the loss of the lost meat.

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You shoot, you pay.

Amen Brother Bill... seems it has always been pretty cut and dried to me. I agree with what others have said before; "if you are not comfortable with the shot, don't take it". If you pull the trigger and there is blood... you bought him. It's called responsibility and it is in our hands and only our hands as hunters.

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Originally posted by shakari:

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Originally posted by JohnHunt:
How about client wounds animal, PH doesn't shoot, animal escapes and the client actually ends up paying MORE then the trophy fee to make up for not being able to sell the meat.

John,

I've never known it to work like that.

Not all countries sell the meat anyway and in those that do, the landowner would accept the loss of the lost meat.

I was with an outfit last summer in Namibia that did this.

John,

I've gotta say it's the first time I've heard of that in very close to 30 years of hunting Africa.

It was a surprise to me as well.

http://www.atsafaris.com/e-brochure.pdf

Look on page 14. There is a 30% penalty if they can't sell the meat.

John,

Thanks for posting.

All I can say is that it's a completely new one on me but as they tell you in advance, they're not misleading you.

I guess it's up to the individual to look at the terms and conditions and decide if they're happy with that.

Personally, I wouldn't entertain it for a second.

What about wounding an animal and the PH only makes a half-hearted effort at tracking? This did happen to me with a warthog. We found blood-- lots of it-- but it appeared that I only hit "meat." Still, we only looked for it for as long as we did (about an hour) because I pressed the guy to help me look. I paid for it, but I was not very happy.

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The normal rule is if the hunters bullet produces paint or pins, then the trophy fee is payable. (Although there might possibly be a bit of leeway if it's just a few pins)

Just one of many things that should be agreed in writing in the safari contract and indemnity form before the hunt begins.

At the least, this needs to be included in the pre-hunt discussion with your PH along with trophy expectations, etc. If you don't have a clear understanding with your PH on what you want as far as back-up, don't blame him for using his best judgment!

Bill: +2

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Originally posted by JohnHunt:
It was a surprise to me as well.

http://www.atsafaris.com/e-brochure.pdf

Look on page 14. There is a 30% penalty if they can't sell the meat.

i would find another outfitter/ game ranch.

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Originally posted by CAelknuts:
To answer the original question, there is nothing to wonder about. Every safari company policy I've ever read indicates the trophy fee is owed for any animals killed or "wounded and lost." So, if you extend that to an animal a client has wounded, the trophy fee is owed regardless of whether he shoots it again, the PH shoots it later, or it is lost. I had this happen with Roy Vincent many years ago, and there was no question at all about how it was going to be handled. I'd badly shot a kudu bull, which headed off into some nearby hills. As we tracked it, we fanned out as we came to the ridgeline, and it so happened that when Roy crested the ridge, the kudu was right in front of him. I was probably 50 or so yards off to his left, and never knew the kudu was there. He promptly dispatched the bull, and there was never even the slightest doubt in my mind about how it was to be handled. And, that is the proper way.

Anyone who thinks they should not pay the trophy fee becuase a PH has to clean up their mess should stay home and hunt vicariously on the television.

Amen. Remember you are paying PH for his or her judgment of the given situation. Far too many shoot and stop to admire their poor shot and then are offended when PH has to make the quick call. And there are those who in desire of "the one shot one kill" even with a poor shot do not want anyone else to step in even at risk of injury. I once was told " if I make a bad shot I do not want the PH to shoot... I will take the penality" Well that is not good for business,tourism and the game department mortality records. Self centered to the end with no regard to the animal or the safty of others to follow. . CAelknuts..excellent post. They should stay in front of the TV and off the forum.

In America, on crowded public land, this can be a problem. A first fatal shot can allow the animal to run up to 100 yards.

If shooter number 2 then shoots the running animal, and it drops to his shot.... Then when the 2 hunters meet, their can be problems...

When hunting with a guide or in Africa a PH different more defined rules apply.

The PH is legally bound to not let a wounded animal escape.

I always tell my PH that I want to kill all my own animals... But I also tell him, is he thinks he needs to shoot, TO SHOOT.

After all he is the PROFESSIONAL HUNTER, and he is ON THE JOB.

It is MUCH BETTER IMHO for the PH to shoot and keep an animal from undo suffering, getting over a hunting consession boundary, escaping and being lost, or even causing a several hour follow up.

It is real simple, IF you do not want your PH to shoot, do not make bad shots.

In Africa if you draw blood, you pay for the trophy, whether it is recovered or not.

Blacktailer,

I apologise for not making that clear in my earlier atatement.

You're quite right, it should of course also be discussed and agreed beforehand.

Bushwack, I have a serious question for you. Are you looking for support for the notion that if the PH shoots an animal after the client has shot at it, that the PH should cover the trophy fee? I only ask this since I found your exact same question posed over on Africa Hunting.com

Did you have a problem with this, and want someone to take up your view?

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Originally posted by CAelknuts:
Bushwack, I have a serious question for you. Are you looking for support for the notion that if the PH shoots an animal after the client has shot at it, that the PH should cover the trophy fee? I only ask this since I found your exact same question posed over on Africa Hunting.com

Did you have a problem with this, and want someone to take up your view?

No, not at all - luckily for pre-negotiated contracts; but i know that this happened with other PH's.

Answering your first question; How i see it is why didn't the client take down the animals with his first shot, a 100 yards in a busveld invironment is bloody far to wait and see if the wounded aminal is going down or not...

PH's are suppose to be professionals (if i may generalize...) if he feels that the backup shot was necessary why put a disbelieve in his judgement, but yes not all have the necessary experience...

I don't think there's any question that when an animal poses a threat to human life it is the responsibility of a PH to step in.

All waivers I have seen cover the stepping in of a PH in the event of a wounded animal and I have never had any issues with any of my own clients in this regard. I personally won't shoot at a PG animal because I "think" it may have been hit badly or even if I KNOW that it was hit badly. In other words, I won't fire a back-up shot at a departing animal directly after the client's shot. In my opinion it is better to first inspect the area where the animal took off from and first show the client sign that the animal had been hit before taking out my own rifle. I have heard of too many PH's firing a shot at a "wounded" animal and recovering the animal with only one bullet hole (the PH's) in it...

In my beginning years as PH I used to carry a rifle with me on all hunts - PG and DG. Nowadays, whilst my rifle is always somewhere nearby, I mostly do not carry it with on PG hunts except when I'm hunting PG in DG areas. I will only call for my rifle after I have shown my client sign that the animal he had shot at had indeed been wounded.

A question on a similar topic to clients out there:

Client shoots a bushbuck through the guts on a riverbank, client is not in good enough physical shape to follow up on the wounded animal and stays behind while the PH goes in to clean up. The PH finds the bushbuck, shoots it and with its last bit of adrenaline the bushbuck gets up and jumps into the river, immediately going down in deep water. The trophy is irrecoverable and the client refuses to pay - accusing the PH of having made a bad backup shot... Who is right - the PH or the client?

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Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:
A question on a similar topic to clients out there:

Client shoots a bushbuck through the guts on a riverbank, client is not in good enough physical shape to follow up on the wounded animal and stays behind while the PH goes in to clean up. The PH finds the bushbuck, shoots it and with its last bit of adrenaline the bushbuck gets up and jumps into the river, immediately going down in deep water. The trophy is irrecoverable and the client refuses to pay - accusing the PH of having made a bad backup shot... Who is right - the PH or the client?

client pays in my book.

There has to be a certain amount of trust as well in these scenarios. When trust breaks down then you start examining these scenarios. And there are millions of potential what-if's

What if a client wounds an animal and it starts to run off... should the PH shoot?
what if it is the sun is setting and it is the last day of hunting, does that change it?
What if the client is fit or isn't or whatever.

To me an African Safari is the whole package. I won't sweat a trophy fee over something that is a judgement call. A pattern of bad behaviour may change my attitude but not something like this.

Some of the scenarios posted here are mind boggling!

To me, anytime you pull the trigger, and there is blood, you pay.

No questions about it.

The minute you pick up a rifle to go hunting - with the intent of shooting an animal - then you as the shooter/hunter are RESPONSIBLE for the humane kill of that animal - period !
Everything else is academic.

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Originally posted by Saeed:
Some of the scenarios posted here are mind boggling!

To me, anytime you pull the trigger, and there is blood, you pay.

No questions about it.

Pretty simple formula: Blood = Pay

Once we start talking about PH error, poor back-up shots, too quick back-up shot, or no back-up shot, we have opened up a can-o-worms.

Keep it simple. If you draw blood you pay.

That said, I am against charging for lost meat, missed shots or shots that don't draw blood(only shave hair).

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Originally posted by sdirks:
What about wounding an animal and the PH only makes a half-hearted effort at tracking? This did happen to me with a warthog. We found blood-- lots of it-- but it appeared that I only hit "meat." Still, we only looked for it for as long as we did (about an hour) because I pressed the guy to help me look. I paid for it, but I was not very happy.

The hunter is paying the daily rate. The PH should look as long as that client wants, even if he is "sure" that the animal is lost.

The PH should make sure that the client is ready to give up.

The only animal I have lost in Africa was a Baboon. The land owner wanted them shot as vermin, so I was not paying a trophy fee. The land owner did not see a reason to try to find it as it was "just a bloody baboon". I am still bothered by the fact that I wounded and lost this animal even though nearly a decade has passed.

On PG there are a handful of reasons I can think of that would require a PH to fire a backup shot on a wounded animal...a) animal is about to cross a border of concession or into a national park. BAM! PH should shoot, client still pays. b) client has gun malfunction c) client repeatedly hits animal in wrong spot d) and in rare instances if PG animal charges client...In any of the above scenarios the PH should shoot to kill and client pays.

What bothers me is when I see an animal hit with an obviously fatal shot, and the client is ordered by his PH to shoot him again. Isn't that the job of the PH---to be able to determine if the animal has been struck with a bullet in the proper location. For a shooter who stays in his gun and doesn't violate follow through, it's very hard to see if you've executed a fatal shot. That's because you're blinded momentarily as the scope is knocked off alignment as you keep your head on your gun absorbing the recoil.

I rely heavily on the PH to tell me what happened the split second after I shoot. Sometimes I can hear the bullet hit or see the animal flopping so I know he's dead. But it bothers me when I see guys shoot "too much" or unnecessarily. There is such a thing as a clean kill right?

On DG it's different. There are so many factors that play into the follow-up shot a) skill level of shooter/hunter b) time of day c) dangerous nature of situation d) possibility of a charge e) ability to track wounded animal considering terrain. i.e rocks, sand, jesse...and so on and so on, but yeah Bushwack, if you wound it you pay for it. It's that simple. But it's a judgment call for the PH when to back you up. That's not so simple.

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Originally posted by MD375:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Some of the scenarios posted here are mind boggling!

To me, anytime you pull the trigger, and there is blood, you pay.

No questions about it.

+1. Well said Saeed

+2

Brett