For you that know. Would a 13 year old lion be a pride male? This seems old to me? I noticed he does not have a scratch on his face? All this seem odd. My Tan. lion was scratched up.

A thirteen year old male in territory bordering other younger males in their prime, being in possession of multiple breeding age females, is in line with finding a three legged ballerina.

Ya Jeff, I too have questioned the age of said lion! Just the fact that a wild lion could/would live to be 13 would be a miracle in itself - but to hold a pride, cubs, etc. I'm not buying it, and I said that 1-2 weeks ago when I offered my opinion on the subject in the first place.

Not that the lion's age has anything to do with the other extenuating circumstances of this case, but it seems many of the facts have been mis-represented.

I don't think a true wild lion at 13 years of age would have any teeth left..

He was in very good condition for a lion of 13. A typical 13 year old looks like vulture crap.

If he really is that old it could be a result of the dynamics of the pride being altered by the constant presence and interaction of the park visitors. The Rangers may even run off new males if the current male plays nice with the tourists. A new male that is nippy would ruin the image the park is trying to achieve.

Mark
Not a lion expert.

I will ask and can find out the truth on the age of this lion and report back. The Oxford scientists are liaisons and there are good pro-hunting folks with that group.

P.S. In the setting that this lion lived...it is possible.

quote:

he Oxford scientists are liaisons and there are good pro-hunting folks with that group.

Well, it would be quite something if a few of those folks spoke up.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

he Oxford scientists are liaisons and there are good pro-hunting folks with that group.

Well, it would be quite something if a few of those folks spoke up.

As I said before BaxterB...financially they operate on money given predominately by anti-hunting people. The scientists realize the role hunting plays but if they speak out...they will be defunded. Therfore, they strive to remain neutral.

In other words...don't hold your breath.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

he Oxford scientists are liaisons and there are good pro-hunting folks with that group.

Well, it would be quite something if a few of those folks spoke up.

As I said before BaxterB...financially they operate on money given predominately by anti-hunting people. The scientists realize the role hunting plays but if they speak out...they will be defunded. Therfore, they strive to remain neutral.

In other words...don't hold your breath.

Dr. Loveridge did make a favorable comment or two regarding hunting within the past 2 weeks, and he was not upset in the least when I met him and returned his collar to him in 2002.

quote:

Originally posted by jeff h:
For you that know. Would a 13 year old lion be a pride male? This seems old to me? I noticed he does not have a scratch on his face? All this seem odd. My Tan. lion was scratched up.

Finding a 13 yr old pride male in the wild is about as likely as finding a quiet muzzle brake, a unicorn or a brilliant Crimson Tide fan ....

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
P.S. In the setting that this lion lived...it is possible.

Agreed. There are examples of this in Serengeti

quote:

Originally posted by nhoro:

quote:

Originally posted by jeff h:
For you that know. Would a 13 year old lion be a pride male? This seems old to me? I noticed he does not have a scratch on his face? All this seem odd. My Tan. lion was scratched up.

Finding a 13 yr old pride male in the wild is about as likely as finding a quiet muzzle brake, a unicorn or a brilliant Crimson Tide fan ....

Quite correct...however this lion did not live in a "truly wild" place. Many documented park lions living to this age with a pride. This lion spent most of its time in Hwange.

quote:

Originally posted by nhoro:

quote:

Originally posted by jeff h:
For you that know. Would a 13 year old lion be a pride male? This seems old to me? I noticed he does not have a scratch on his face? All this seem odd. My Tan. lion was scratched up.

Finding a 13 yr old pride male in the wild is about as likely as finding a quiet muzzle brake, a unicorn or a brilliant Crimson Tide fan ....

I got a good laugh at you Crimson Tide fan comment and had to post this. ROLL TIDE

Ha! Love it! Got a few Bama friends and never miss an opportunity to poke at em!

I have just received confirmation from a trusted friend from the Oxford lion research team.

The so-called "Cecil lion" was indeed 13 years of age and was holding a pride in coalition with another male...the so-called Jericho lion.

Apparently this Cecil lion had been collared for quite some time.

Oxford research of the lions in Hwange National Park

#Loveridge, A. J., Searle, A. W., Murindagomo, F., and MacDonald, D. W. (2007). The impact of sport-hunting on the population dyamics of an African lion population in a protected area. Biol.

Conserv. 134: 548-558. Keywords: 1ZW/Hwange NP/infanticide/lion/Panthera leo/population dynamics/protected area/safari hunting/sport hunting Abstract:

Between 1999 and 2004 we undertook an ecological study of African lions (Panthera leo ) in Hwange National Park, western Zimbabwe to measure the impact of sport-hunting beyond the park on the lion population within the park, using radio-telemetry and direct observation. 34 of 62 tagged lions died during the study (of which 24 were shot by sport hunters: 13 adult males, 5 adult females, 6 sub-adult males). Sport hunters in the safari areas surr ounding the park killed 72% of tagged adult males from the study area. Over 30% of all males shot were sub-adult (<4 years). Hunting off-take of male lions doubled during 2001-2003 compared to levels in the three preceding years, which caused a decline in numbers of adult males in the population (from an adult sex ratio of 1:3 to 1:6 in favour of adult females). Home ranges made vacant by removal of adult males were filled by immigration of males from the park core. Infanticide was observed when new males entered prides. The proportion of male cubs increased between 1999 and 2004, which may have occurred to compensate for high adult male mortality.#

So even females and sub-adult males are hunted!
I don't call this conservation but extinction of a specie who has roamed this world long before mankind arrived on the scene.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Ya Jeff, I too have questioned the age of said lion! Just the fact that a wild lion could/would live to be 13 would be a miracle in itself - but to hold a pride, cubs, etc. I'm not buying it, and I said that 1-2 weeks ago when I offered my opinion on the subject in the first place.

Not that the lion's age has anything to do with the other extenuating circumstances of this case, but it seems many of the facts have been mis-represented.

In areas where lions are not hunted it happens. The Duba Plains boys held a territory for over 12 years and they were estimated to be 17/18 when they died. But in this case it makes sense, and all the facts are out there, for everybody to see.
Cecil was born in the park, and was collared in 2008. At that time he must have been around 5-6 years old, which is an age you can age lions pretty easy still (especially when immobilized). But since the study has been going on for much longer I wouldn't be surprised if he has been known to the study much longer than that. So why you are questioning his aging I don't know.
Secondly, he held a territory inside the park, surrounded by other male coalitions and was ousted a few years back. After that he met up with Jericho and formed a new coalition (it's not uncommon for male lions to form coalitions with males which are not their brother). They got a hold of a territory at the edge of the park, at the edge of the extent of the lion population (why would hunters need to bait routinely just outside the park if they had a good lion population in their hunting area?) Being a lion on the periphery of the lion population the competition is much less, thus it's easier to keep at territory. And this story is exactly what Andrew Loveridge wrote about in a scientific paper years ago. Lion hunting on reserve boundaries had an effect on the lion population up to 50 km inside the park. Male lions get shot on the park boundary, creating an attractive area (there's female lions and no competition from other male) for male lions living deeper in the park, they males from deeper in the park move to the boundary to attend the females, they get shot, males from even deeper in the park move to the boundary.

Liz,
You have to remember that the whole concept of hunting block buffer zones around parks is to keep lion from exiting the park and encountering cattle and families on the hunting block periphery.

Therefore...it would make sense for the hunting area buffer zones to NOT have the same density of lions as the park interior...for if they did...lions would frequently exit hunting block boundaries and encounter agriculturally based families...thus defying their purpose and the buffer zone concept.

Always GREAT information here. Thanks guys

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Clark:
He was in very good condition for a lion of 13. A typical 13 year old looks like vulture crap.

If he really is that old it could be a result of the dynamics of the pride being altered by the constant presence and interaction of the park visitors. The Rangers may even run off new males if the current male plays nice with the tourists. A new male that is nippy would ruin the image the park is trying to achieve.

Mark
Not a lion expert.

Maybe he was the "Jack Lalanne" of lion-dom? It could happen! Right?

quote:

Originally posted by Lizzy:
(why would hunters need to bait routinely just outside the park if they had a good lion population in their hunting area?)

because baiting allows a PH the opportunity to age a lion and determine if the lion is worthy/legal for taking...

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Liz,
You have to remember that the whole concept of hunting block buffer zones around parks is to keep lion from exiting the park and encountering cattle and families on the hunting block periphery.

Therefore...it would make sense for the hunting area buffer zones to NOT have the same density of lions as the park interior...for if they did...lions would frequently exit hunting block boundaries and encounter agriculturally based families...thus defying their purpose and the buffer zone concept.

LEDVM argument that the buffer zone is to keep lions from exiting the park refutes the whole 'if it pays it stays argument'.
You don't need good habitat to keep a lion from exiting a park and then shoot it. No hunting dollars protected this lion for the first 11-12 years of it's life, when it never set foot outside the park, never ate any animal who was living outside the park.

quote:

Originally posted by Lizzy:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Liz,
You have to remember that the whole concept of hunting block buffer zones around parks is to keep lion from exiting the park and encountering cattle and families on the hunting block periphery.

Therefore...it would make sense for the hunting area buffer zones to NOT have the same density of lions as the park interior...for if they did...lions would frequently exit hunting block boundaries and encounter agriculturally based families...thus defying their purpose and the buffer zone concept.

LEDVM argument that the buffer zone is to keep lions from exiting the park refutes the whole 'if it pays it stays argument'.
You don't need good habitat to keep a lion from exiting a park and then shoot it. No hunting dollars protected this lion for the first 11-12 years of it's life, when it never set foot outside the park, never ate any animal who was living outside the park.

I never said "keep lions from exiting the park"...I said keep them from entering agricultural land...which they are designed to do. And, it totally goes along with the "if it pays it stays" concept. See how long Antonette or the other land bordering Hwange stays habitat for wildlife with out hunting...you will have cattle grazing the fringes and while lion prides getting poisoned.

BTW...what makes you think that lion never left the park before??? I will make a bet with you that that assumption is incorrect. Want to take it?

quote:

Originally posted by Lizzy:
Oxford research of the lions in Hwange National Park

#Loveridge, A. J., Searle, A. W., Murindagomo, F., and MacDonald, D. W. (2007). The impact of sport-hunting on the population dyamics of an African lion population in a protected area. Biol.

Conserv. 134: 548-558. Keywords: 1ZW/Hwange NP/infanticide/lion/Panthera leo/population dynamics/protected area/safari hunting/sport hunting Abstract:

Between 1999 and 2004 we undertook an ecological study of African lions (Panthera leo ) in Hwange National Park, western Zimbabwe to measure the impact of sport-hunting beyond the park on the lion population within the park, using radio-telemetry and direct observation. 34 of 62 tagged lions died during the study (of which 24 were shot by sport hunters: 13 adult males, 5 adult females, 6 sub-adult males). Sport hunters in the safari areas surr ounding the park killed 72% of tagged adult males from the study area. Over 30% of all males shot were sub-adult (<4 years). Hunting off-take of male lions doubled during 2001-2003 compared to levels in the three preceding years, which caused a decline in numbers of adult males in the population (from an adult sex ratio of 1:3 to 1:6 in favour of adult females). Home ranges made vacant by removal of adult males were filled by immigration of males from the park core. Infanticide was observed when new males entered prides. The proportion of male cubs increased between 1999 and 2004, which may have occurred to compensate for high adult male mortality.#

So even females and sub-adult males are hunted!
I don't call this conservation but extinction of a specie who has roamed this world long before mankind arrived on the scene.

Lizzie,
nothing in the above would indicate the doomsday scenario you are trying to potray!

Pls consider the following in context of what was reported by the researchers above:
- Period 1999 to 2004 was mostly prior to the release across hunting states of a scientific based strategy promoting the hunting of 6+ year old male lion. Today, hunters have voluntarily adopted (in fact, in most instances, hunters were part of the formulation and promotion of the strategy ) this sustainable strategy across much of lion hunting range states. Mistakes do still happen but I would confidently suggest that today's sub-adult lion off-take is less than 30%! The aged based lion hunting strategy errors on the side of caution to accommodate such a margin for error.
- The increase of lion off take, no doubt correlates with the peak of the Zimbabwe political turmoil wich negatively impacted the hunting industry (in fact all business sectors) and unfortunately welcomed a number of unscrupolous outftters who took advantage of the instability in the tourism industry. Upstanding and ethical outfitters and hunters across the globe stood up and distanced themselves from what was going on. Today the situation is much closer to what it should be.
- Female lion were legal for hunting back then. It no longer is in Zimbabwe, except perhaps on private land. A decision that had the wide support of the great majority of the hunting community around the world.
- Infanticide occurs but not 100% of the time. The best lion experts agreed that infanticide resulting from the removal of a 6+ year old male from a pride by hunting or otherwise HAS NO LONG TERM effects on the survivability of that local population. Other factors are much more of a threat to the lion, eg. habitat loss through human encroachment (refer to the importance of hunting zones acting as "buffer zones")


The point here is that hunting when practiced sustainably, is a great conservation tool.

Ms. Lizzy,
Ma'am, if you want to be mad at someone, be mad at Honest Trymore Ndlouv, the person who illegally possesses Antoinette and who conspired to host a knowingly illegal hunt.

It is black Africans like these, Ma'am, who are the true enemy of the lion and wildlife in general. For them, if you can't get a pocket ful-o-cash from shooting them...the next best thing is a jug of Temik.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Lizzy:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Liz,
You have to remember that the whole concept of hunting block buffer zones around parks is to keep lion from exiting the park and encountering cattle and families on the hunting block periphery.

Therefore...it would make sense for the hunting area buffer zones to NOT have the same density of lions as the park interior...for if they did...lions would frequently exit hunting block boundaries and encounter agriculturally based families...thus defying their purpose and the buffer zone concept.

LEDVM argument that the buffer zone is to keep lions from exiting the park refutes the whole 'if it pays it stays argument'.
You don't need good habitat to keep a lion from exiting a park and then shoot it. No hunting dollars protected this lion for the first 11-12 years of it's life, when it never set foot outside the park, never ate any animal who was living outside the park.

I never said "keep lions from exiting the park"...I said keep them from entering agricultural land...which they are designed to do. And, it totally goes along with the "if it pays it stays" concept. See how long Antonette or the other land bordering Hwange stays habitat for wildlife with out hunting...you will have cattle grazing the fringes and while lion prides getting poisoned.

BTW...what makes you think that lion never left the park before??? I will make a bet with you that that assumption is incorrect. Want to take it?

Does the cat (pun intended) have your tongue?