quote:

Originally posted by Alan Bunn:
It may have been legal, but the ethics of killing these lions are extremely doubtful in my opinion.

Namibian wildlife authorities should take action to protect fragile lion populations and set some guidelines about what lions can be shot or not, with a eye towards increasing their numbers.

Then why was a permit even issued if this lion population was/is so fragile?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
From a personal point of view, I would not knowingly shoot any animal that is collared.

I think we are doing ourselves a great disservice by shooting an animal that is being part of a research project.

Nicely said, Saeed.

Regards, Tim

The photo of Big Boy in Kathi's post is a huge big black maned cat. I can understand if the hunters never saw the collar. In fact, I can't see in the well lit photo either.

Just like human/wildlife conflicts are inevitable in Africa, so are issues like this where hunting and tourism and/or research coexist. They are complex, with no easy answers, partly because it is "Africa" and if there is the possibility to exploit, somebody will find a way. And the reality is that you have two sides, each very passionate in their beliefs.

Desert Lion Conservation appears to be a reputable organization, and they say they are not anti-hunting (if anybody knows differently, please feel free to speak up). I've been interested in this project for years, and on the surface at least they would seem to have a compelling story and justification. Looking at the website there is documented data of lion movement, and they were actively following these particular lion. These lion do not appear to be somebody’s pets, or their meal ticket.

http://www.desertlion.info/news.html

Interestingly, Desert Lion Conservation does not appear to the be ones making a huge deal out of this, it is the news media…and those with an agenda.

Anyway, I think it is safe to say that this is a reputable organization, well-known to hunting and non-hunting entities alike. With this in mind, the ASSUMPTION is that while the PH knew of the project, he did not purposely “entice” the lion to bait, noting that with the publicity bound to accompany the killing I don’t know what PH in his right mind would knowingly shoot a research animal.

But hey, who knows, greed does funny things to people.

I have talked to PH’s who have accidentally shot collared lions and they say it is very difficult to see the collar in typical hunting conditions (low light, brush) and they truly did not until they walked up to the dead animal (and check out the dark mane on this cat, and the dark-colored collar that he wore). And what about if it was collared, but collared somewhere else or a “problem lion” and was “ok” (deemed acceptable for whatever reason, possibly as evidenced by there being no public outcry) to shoot.

If it is the intent to protect all research animals in Namibia, or just this group given their fragility, fine/good, then I think they need to: (1) come up with a system to better mark the lion (branding and/or brightly colored tags, as unsightly as this may be); (2) make sure that the lions collared are indeed part of an active research project and not somebody's pet or tool for financial gain; (3) make reasonable efforts to insure that all PH’s are made fully aware of the particular collared lions (pictures, documentation of movement and ranges, anything that would be helpful in identifying the animals and anticipating their presence); and (4) formalize the game law/regulation. And who knows, soon maybe all lions will be wearing collars!

Personally, if I were a client hunting lion in Namibia, I would look into any local research projects and talk it over with my PH along with my other hunt concerns and expectations, and specifically express my desires to not shoot a collared animal. I would not have thought that one would need to even remotely consider this possibility 6 months ago, but one does. I also think that right or wrong, we as hunters need to educate ourselves regarding the game laws of the country we will be hunting in…just like we do when hunting across our State line. Ask to see your hunting license and related documentation (including for any freebee's or "PAC" animals), talk to your PH about non-shooting zones (roads, buffers, water), and let him know that hunting by the rules is more important to you than the trophies. If the laws are stupid, and it bothers you, hunt someplace else until they change them. If you cannot fathom going home without your intended game, and will do "whatever it takes", strongly consider staying home.

Just some ramblings as I reflect back on my 13 safaris, and the stories that I have heard along the way...

On a side note, per the link above, a female lion was just killed assumedly by locals, which I suspect will not make the papers:

quote:

9 Nov 2010. Hoanib lion killed. The young lioness (Xpl-58) of the Hoanib Pride has been killed. Presumably because of raiding livestock - although there has not been any reports of lion problems in this area. On return from Hobatere late last night, the radio signal of Xpl-58 was picked-up. Early this morning it was confirmed that she had been killed by people, approximately 4 km east of Elephant Song campsite in the Hoanib River. The tracks indicate that she took refuge in a dense Salvadora bush (photo: bottom left) where she was killed.

Here is the full text from the article:

A black-maned lion nicknamed "Old Boy" has been shot in Etosha National Park, Namibia. This is the second lion to be killed in the park in the past five months. Both lions were collared, meaning park rangers were studying and protecting them.

"Old Boy" had been a favorite among visitors for years because he lived near Hobatere Lodge. Conservationists believe he was the most frequently seen lion in the country. The park has a no-shoot policy towards collared lions, which didn't stop a professional hunter from killing "Old Boy."

The hunter had a permit, but officials want to know why he targeted a lion that was being studied. The hunting party claimed they didn't see the collar until the lion was dead. They also claim the lion attacked them, something "Old Boy" had never done before, although in a separate interview the hunters didn't mention any attack.

The incident highlights the troubles conservationists face in trying to preserve animals on a continent where big game hunting is still popular.



Hmmm, in one interview it appears that Jan du Plessis, Peter Thormalen, and Phillip Fourie claim to have been attacked, yet in another they didn't mention it at all! I ask everyone on this forum...if you had killed a charging lion, wouldn't you be telling anyone and everyone about the most exciting hunt you had ever been on???

Well, wouldn't you? Hell yes, you would! It appears there maybe something irregular with their account of how the event transpired.

I think they may have known exactly what lion they were after, and furthermore it appears they may have known exactly where to find him. And, with the success that Keith Wright had in killing 'Leonardo' five months ago and not only getting away with it, but also keeping the pelt and skull... it was an easy (alleged) $75K to pocket.

My question is, with most of the prides without an Alpha male at this time, what are the long term chances that the desert lions will survive?

But despite all of that, did you notice how the reporter wrapped up the article?

The incident highlights the troubles conservationists face in trying to preserve animals on a continent where big game hunting is still popular.

This is a gift from God for the fanatical animal rights organizations. PETA, HSUS, and Greenpeace will collect millions of dollars in donations, and with all the photos and videos of Old Boy and Leonardo floating around, you can expect to see this squeezed for every drop of bad publicity they can conjure up for a long time to come.

Well done, Jan du Plessis, Peter Thormalen, and Phillip Fourie... you may have dealt a blow to the safari industry that its worst enemies could only dream of inflicting. (/sarcasm)

Cheers,

~ Alan

quote:

Originally posted by Alan Bunn:
My question is, with most of the prides without an Alpha male at this time, what are the long term chances that the desert lions will survive?

I think they'll survive just fine. IF the desert lions are in such trouble, then why would a permit be issued?

After seeing the photo, I would bet a lot of people would have buck fever so bad they would never even notice a collar under that HUGE black mane. Your mind is not going to be focused on looking for collars on wild animals (it's not normal), I would venture a guess it is going show you only what you expect to see. How many of you guys have been so excited to shoot a deer that every stump or boulder looks like a deer? Same idea.

Has anyone here tried to take a collar off of a live / healthy Lion? If so, post the video and address to send flowers to the widow.

quote:

This is the second lion to be killed in the park in the past five months. Both lions were collared, meaning park rangers were studying and protecting them

Begs some questions:

How many lions do they have collared in the park?
Are they studying and "protecting" all of the lions in the park?
Do the park rangers also serve as game rangers?

quote:

Originally posted by Alan Bunn:
Here is the full text from the article:

[i]A black-maned lion nicknamed "Old Boy" has been shot in Etosha National Park, Namibia. This is the second lion to be killed in the park in the past five months.

Both lions were shot IN Etosha Park? And MET issued a permit to do so? I don't believe it.

The PREVIOUS lion Xpl-44 (aka: "Leonardo") was shot in the "Sesfontein Conservancy" per the Desert Lion Conservation website. It also says that:

quote:

A detailed spoor re-construction at the place where the Hoaruseb male (Leonardo) was shot, revealed new information and a better understanding of the sequence of events. The hypothesis mentioned yesterday, that the lion may have been baited and attracted with sound playbacks, can now be ruled out. It appears that the hunters came across Xpl-44 by chance. Lionesses of the Hoanib Pride ("Bianca" & co.) killed an oryx on the north-facing slope of a mountain during the night of 19 Apr 2010. It is likely that Xpl-44 heard the commotion and moved rapidly down a long valley to join the lionesses on the kill. Xpl-44 then dragged the oryx carcass for 775 metres to a small cave [where it was shot]

http://www.desertlion.info/news10apr.html

It also says that the current lion Xpl-20 (aka "Old Boy") was killed in the "Ehirovipuka Conservancy, north of Hobatere". I don't know where either of these Conservancy's lie in relation to the Park...?

Here's a link to an short yet interesting (and un-spun) article which gives a good idea of the big-picture, including the real threat to wild lion populations (local killings + loss of habitat + of course a cup of greed):

http://www.tournamibia.net/con...an-predator-conflict

quote:

LION KILLINGS HIGHLIGHT HUMAN-PREDATOR CONFLICT
10 November, 2010
Willie Olivier

The recent death of a young lioness about 20 km west of Sesfontein in the Kunene Region has highlighted the conflict between humans and predators in the Sesfontein Conservancy.

Details about the latest incident remain sketchy, but initial reports suggest that the lioness had been killed by people. The incident took place 4 km east of the Elephant Song Campsite in the Hoanib River in the Sesfontein Conservancy.

Contacted for comment, Sesfontein Conservancy Chairperson, Bennie Ganuseb, told TourNamibia he had not been informed of the killing of the lioness.

Asked whether he had received any received any recent reports of lions killing livestock in the area, Ganamub said he was aware that lions had been killing donkeys at the settlement of Ganamub, west of Sesfontein between January and October this year. He had, however, not been informed of any recent incidents.

Sesfontein Regional Councillor Hendrik Goabeb was also unaware of the latest incident. He said he saw no reason for the latest killing as people bring their animals to stockades at night once they become aware of the presence of lions in an area.

Goabeb came out strongly in favour of the sustainable utilisation of natural resources, but pointed out that the benefits derived by conservancies in communal areas must be ploughed backed into the communities. He said recent reports of lion killings “… suggest that (hunting) lions are becoming money-making projects.”

No comment could be obtained from the Ministry of Environment and Tourism.

The latest incident follows a string of lion killings in the Sesfontein Conservancy. An adult male was shot near a village west of Sesfontein in November last year following stock losses which could not be attributed directly to the animal.

In April this year, a collared male lion was shot by trophy hunter Keith Wright in the Sesfontein Conservancy. Wright, however, had a permit to hunt a lion in the adjacent Anabeb Conservancy. It was initially suspected that the lion had been lured into the Sesfontein Conservancy by sound playbacks, but further investigation showed that he moved into the area following the killing of a gemsbok by lions in the area.

In yet another incident, also in the Sesfontein Conservancy, two lions were poisoned in August this year. It was suspected that the animals had been poisoned by members of the local community, but the incident was never reported to the Ministry of Environment and Tourism.

It was reported earlier this week that one of Namibia’s most photographed lions, a collared male of the Hobatere pride, had been legally shot by a trophy hunter in the Ehirovipuka Conservancy – to the north of the Hobatere tourism concession.

http://bushwarriors.wordpress....mibias-desert-lions/


Article with additional photos including radio collared male.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill C:
It also says that the current lion Xpl-20 (aka "Old Boy") was killed in the "Ehirovipuka Conservancy, north of Hobatere". I don't know where either of these Conservancy's lie in relation to the Park...?

Both conservancies share a boundary with Etosha.

Needless to say, sport hunting inside the park is prohibited. The article is clearly wrong about that.

It appears that neither of these lions was a problem animal, but that each of them was legally shot in a legal hunting area with lion on quota.

Even if one subscribes to the debatable view that a collared animal in a legal hunting area where the animal is on quota should not be shot - the practical realities of the situation may prove problematic.

From firsthand experience, I will tell you that it is very difficult to see a collar on a heavily maned lion.

quote:

I

If someone can go to the trouble of collaring a lion an extra bit of effort in applying a visible ear tag shouldn't be much of an added problem.

Whilst the collar may be hidden from view by the mane the tag should stand out and be pretty visible to the hunter.
If a collar + transmitting device is acceptable there should be no problem with a flag on one or both ears.

Furthermore, assuming the tracking device is functional and the whereabouts of the collared animal known to its "trackers" one would expect the concession owner to be forewarned that this animal is now in the area and "kindly refrain from killing it".

Alternatively shave the mane off before the collar is attached?

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Alternatively shave the mane off before the collar is attached?

Could well be an alternative solution - though there are hunters who don't mind a 'mane-less' lion and go for skull and body size. Not sure how the tree-huggers would react to their pride and joy getting shaved.

tree huggers always go nutt's when you mention lion hunting. They are like liberal inner city dwellers you jut can't talk rationally to them they don't understand normal English

Big orange ear tags, both ears, with reflectors. Why do they put black collars on them anyway? My dog wears a fluorescent orange collar with reflector strips.

So what if the orange collar and ear tags make for poorer tourist photos.

you nailed it Ann you know you can not offend the tourist/tree huggers

I know Jan and do not think he would have shot a collared lion knowingly.

I for one would be be very irate if I was a researcher and had to go through the effort of having to collar another suitable lion and gather another year or two of research data because of this. It certaily will leave a sour taste in the mouths of those doing research on this individual animal, and will not help hunting in any way and can only damage the relationship between hunters and researchers. If it was an honest mistake then fine, but if they knew the animal was collared then they should know better.

I’ve debated a few days about posting on this…. initial “reports” aren’t always accurate and that may be proven again in this case…i.e. initially reported killed inside a park, and also now there are some photos posted of the lions.

Questions a reasonable person might be asking:

1. Why was a permit issued for the area if the prides were having trouble maintaining “breeding” prides as was “reported” in media articles.

2. If these lions are part of a “research project” and the GPS is “supposedly” reporting the lions position on regular enough basis as one article reports the high cost of the satellite bills, then did the “researchers” notice the lion was out of the park and in one of the adjoining conservancies and if they did, did they notify the conservancy to be on the watch for a “collared” lion? If they didn’t do either of these things why not?

3. If the “researchers” did notify the conservancy did the conservancy notify the outfitter or the PH? If not why not?

4. In the photos posted of the lion did anyone see a collar? If not, how many would be lion hunters “in the heat of the moment” would pass up a shot at one like that IF you didn’t know ANYTHING about a collared lion in the area and couldn't see anything “unusual” about it - i.e. a collar or ear tag(s) or brand etc.

5. The news reports seemed to indicate that the lion was “well known” and would leave a casual reader to believe that “everyone” should immediately recognize “Old Boy” from all other male lions in NW Namibia. If this is the case I would be willing to bet that no one posting on here could pick out “Old Boy” from a set of two dozen photos of other similar black mane males – unless you could see a black collar buried under the mane.

All I am getting at is there where only 3-4 people who where actually “there” and know all the circumstances and everything else is just supposition. It is kind of like when doing an aircraft accident investigation. There are always “links” in the chain of events that had something happened differently the accident would not have occurred.

I have known and hunted with Jan for the past three years. I do not believe that had he known of a “collared” lion in the area or had seen a collar or any other unusual marking he would not have let it been shot.

m3taco,

Ehi Rovipuka used to get one Lion per year on a trophy basis and one on PAC basis. Both were exportable. There are Lions around there, on all sides, but no resident prides.

I have hunted Lion in Ehi-Rovipuka. I have been to Hobatare as well.

These Lions come across the borders, come in, kill a Cow, eat it and leave. Sometimes they hang around.

I had a client kill a collared Lion in Namibia. He actually shot the collar. (Not in Ehi-Rovipuka)

When he saw that it was collared, he went to them, returned the damaged collar, paid to have it replaced and gave an additional $500 donation.

The researchers were upset at the loss, but knew that "It happens" especially when a Lion goes out and starts killing cows.

They were not mad at my client, they recognized it as part of the job. Lions die. Sometimes they die by other Lions, sometimes by hunters, sometimes they are destroyed by locals.

Which of these is the most noble death?

I guess it depends on who you ask.

quote:

Originally posted by Nzou:
I for one would be be very irate if I was a researcher and had to go through the effort of having to collar another suitable lion and gather another year or two of research data because of this. It certaily will leave a sour taste in the mouths of those doing research on this individual animal, and will not help hunting in any way and can only damage the relationship between hunters and researchers. If it was an honest mistake then fine, but if they knew the animal was collared then they should know better.

To me, here's the part some are missing! If the true essence of the study of lions is to gather data, any/all data that might play a part in a lion's life, then hunting is part of that equation/data too!!! Especially if the lion lives where hunting is legally allowed. Any good researcher should have factual/real application data, including the likelyhood of a particular lion being shot, etc. If a WILD animal, in an area that is legally open to hunting, is "off-limits", then the data is altered, period!

If any collared animal lives in hunting areas, they are and should be fair game. "Researchers" get plenty of opportunity to collar lions in parks/preserves, etc. Places where hunting is totally off-limits. Now we should not allow collared animals, in hunting areas, to be hunted too??? B.S. Use the data for what it is, and accept the potential outcomes when you collar animals in hunting areas, or areas adjacent to hunting areas.

Besides, nothing is more dis-respectful to a big, beautiful lion, than a damn collar around its neck.

Did you guys know, those doing this "study" also brand the lions??? Look up XPL-15, you will see the branding on him. What a disgrace!

Aaron,

Good point about this whole collaring industry. I never thought much about it until I read Along the Hunter's Path by Kai-Uwe Denker. He thought the whole concept of collaring an animal completely disrespectful of the animal and the mystery of nature. We know what wildlife needs to prosper and that is lots of territory. The more territory the better. To be honest that is part of the reason I wouldn't hesitate to shoot such an animal. I just don't like the whole notion of it. I have seen a collared leopard and lioness in non hunting areas and it just looked wrong.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by BigBoreCore:
Aaron,

Good point about this whole collaring industry. I never thought much about it until I read Along the Hunter's Path by Kai-Uwe Denker. He thought the whole concept of collaring an animal completely disrespectful of the animal and the mystery of nature. We know what wildlife needs to prosper and that is lots of territory. The more territory the better. To be honest that is part of the reason I wouldn't hesitate to shoot such an animal. I just don't like the whole notion of it. I have seen a collared leopard and lioness in non hunting areas and it just looked wrong.

Mike

I saw a brown bear in Ak that had outgrown his collar and his neck was festering around the collar...I can see the science/nature benefits of getting gps info but there has to be a better way.

Bigger collars perhaps?

quote:

These folks at Desert Lion Conservation aren't tree huggers

But you appear to be Alan.

Any sort of animal abuse in the name of "science" is okay, eh?

Considering the number of trees that have fallen to my chainsaw, and the number of animals that have fallen to my gun, this is an idiotic statement.

Where is there any animal abuse in this story?

Have you been drinking, are you off your meds, or are you just seeking attention?

Cheers,

~ Alan

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
To me, here's the part some are missing! If the true essence of the study of lions is to gather data, any/all data that might play a part in a lion's life, then hunting is part of that equation/data too!!! Especially if the lion lives where hunting is legally allowed. Any good researcher should have factual/real application data, including the likelyhood of a particular lion being shot, etc. If a WILD animal, in an area that is legally open to hunting, is "off-limits", then the data is altered, period!

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Did you guys know, those doing this "study" also brand the lions??? Look up XPL-15, you will see the branding on him. What a disgrace!

Very well said on both points!

There seems to be a trend among researchers in which they seem to believe that they own the animals that they are conducting research on.