Apparently, a permit for a Black Rhino is available. This is one of only five to be issued this year according to the email I received.

Anyone know what the trophy fee is? 50 Grand? 75? 100? More? (Not that I'm interested.)

J and M Safaris
bob Jacobson, owner
Phone: (507) 209-1929
Fax: (507) 645-7010
E-mail: Bob@JandMSafaris.com
TAKE A STEP INTO ADVENTURE!

Even if it is affordable

Leave them alone

It's so rare it's a shame to Shoot it for pleasure

May be my grandson will get one

Someday

quote:

Originally posted by londonhunter:
Even if it is affordable

Leave them alone

It's so rare it's a shame to Shoot it for pleasure

May be my grandson will get one

Someday

Well, that statement doesn't say much for hunting as a conservation tool, eh?

The first one was offered to me a few years back for $250,000. The money was going directly to aid black rhino.

This is in Namibia? I have heard of trophy fees in excess of $100,000 there.

Geoff

quote:

Originally posted by londonhunter:
Even if it is affordable

Leave them alone

It's so rare it's a shame to Shoot it for pleasure

May be my grandson will get one

Someday

As said above, that is missing the role of hunting in conservation. As I understand it, the permits are for specific aged male rhinos that have been shown to be out of the breeding cycle. Their death, whether from bullet or hyena has no impact on the population. Unless of course some of the money from the hunt is put back into rhino conservation. I doubt CITES would issue a permit if that wasn't the case.

Dean

Shoot the old male or barren female and put that money into breeding more!

The first one shot was offered at 250k and ultimately sold for 220k IIRC. However, that was at a time that white rhinos could be hunted for 35-40k. Those days are over.

I'd say not less than 200k and possibly as much as 350k for a legal black rhino hunt in 2012.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by londonhunter:
Even if it is affordable

Leave them alone

It's so rare it's a shame to Shoot it for pleasure

May be my grandson will get one

Someday

Well, that statement doesn't say much for hunting as a conservation tool, eh?

You are almost correct.... Londonhunter's statement really shows his ignorance of hunting's role in conservation of the back rhino.

It is clear that he doesn't understand the fact that the +- 250k that is paid for a non-breading bull funds the effort to increase the population of black rhino.

No offense intended, but his logic is the same as that of the ignorant non-hunters.

Back in the good old days, in 1971, black rhinos were a pest, like this one.



The land owner had already called the Game Department to come and destroy this malefactor, who was escaping from the Aberdares Game Reserve and chasing his cattle and cattle herders. The cattle herder is the one on the right, peeking over the back.

Hunting is what brought South Africa's white rhinos back from the brink of extinction nearly a half century ago. Hunting black rhinos for prices approaching a quarter million dollars per animal will do the same.

Bill Quimby

@xausa
thx for sharing that picture. The days that black rhinos were considerd as a pest are over, for sure.

From the outfitter:

The tag is for a Trophy Black Rhino in South Africa on 25,000 acres in the Free State. It is one of only five permits issued this year.

With rampant poaching, it takes money to protect the animals. This hunt generates money to pay for the added protection and cost of maintaining and growing the ever dwindling Rhino population.

We need to stop the poaching before the poaching ends the species. This is a CITES Appendix I animal. This means that CITES countries will need an Import Permit from their country.

We have the Export Permit and all paperwork to complete the import of your Trophy. The lucky hunter will have all paperwork approved before the hunt so there is no room for error.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by londonhunter:
Even if it is affordable

Leave them alone

It's so rare it's a shame to Shoot it for pleasure

May be my grandson will get one

Someday

Well, that statement doesn't say much for hunting as a conservation tool, eh?

You are almost correct.... Londonhunter's statement really shows his ignorance of hunting's role in conservation of the back rhino.

It is clear that he doesn't understand the fact that the +- 250k that is paid for a non-breading bull funds the effort to increase the population of black rhino.

No offense intended, but his logic is the same as that of the ignorant non-hunters.

Jason, That is exactly my point!

I texted and got a reply of $350,000 but he's negotiating..Evidently some of the trophy fee goes for anti poaching efforts..

I can't think of any other African animal that is a better case for hunting as conservation than the white rhino.

And I'm betting this black rhino will sell to some Russian hunter for how ever many rubles $500,000 US is, or maybe that Angus Murray chap.

quote:

Originally posted by Caracal:
@xausa
thx for sharing that picture. The days that black rhinos were considerd as a pest are over, for sure.

They can still be a pest, but nowadays instead of a big bore, running and/or tree climbing are required.

Anybody who is advertising a hunt and saying that the proceeds are to be used for the conservation of the black rhino is seriously dillusional. Breeding rhino's is an extremely difficult process. As such the loss of one to the gene pool even for monetary compensation is not viable. Especially with the out of control poaching in the current climate. I would seriously rethink about doing a hunt of this nature..... No matter what permits you can get.

Anybody got a cell number for the Trump boys?...

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Fouche:
Anybody who is advertising a hunt and saying that the proceeds are to be used for the conservation of the black rhino is seriously dillusional. Breeding rhino's is an extremely difficult process. As such the loss of one to the gene pool even for monetary compensation is not viable. Especially with the out of control poaching in the current climate. I would seriously rethink about doing a hunt of this nature..... No matter what permits you can get.

So breeding rhino's is an extremely difficult process. I would think that "difficult" could also mean "expensive" in this case. Don't you think the rancher who receives the trophy fee will use a portion of that money to reinvest in purchasing or breeding additional rhino's?

Also, if the rhino being permitted is an old animal and no longer contributing to the gene pool, how is it that it's loss is not viable, especially when the rancher or breeder uses those funds to breed additional animals.

Seriously, I think YOU need to rethink your concept of how hunting is used as a conservation tool. IMO, this example is the very definition of how a species as a whole benefits from hunting dollars, at least under ranching conditions.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Fouche:
Anybody who is advertising a hunt and saying that the proceeds are to be used for the conservation of the black rhino is seriously dillusional. Breeding rhino's is an extremely difficult process. As such the loss of one to the gene pool even for monetary compensation is not viable. Especially with the out of control poaching in the current climate. I would seriously rethink about doing a hunt of this nature..... No matter what permits you can get.

So breeding rhino's is an extremely difficult process. I would think that "difficult" could also mean "expensive" in this case. Don't you think the rancher who receives the trophy fee will use a portion of that money to reinvest in purchasing or breeding additional rhino's?

Also, if the rhino being permitted is an old animal and no longer contributing to the gene pool, how is it that it's loss is not viable, especially when the rancher or breeder uses those funds to breed additional animals.

Seriously, I think YOU need to rethink your concept of how hunting is used as a conservation tool. IMO, this example is the very definition of how a species as a whole benefits from hunting dollars, at least under ranching conditions.

I agree with you Todd. But a case could be made ... in fact, I'll make it, that there should be a bank of genetic material for Black Rhino (assuming there isn't one already) in which a sample from every remaining Black Rhino is stored.

Maybe the Trump boys could finance it ... and I offer myself as managing director (I'll be hiring a plethora of consultants and technicians).

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Fouche:
Anybody who is advertising a hunt and saying that the proceeds are to be used for the conservation of the black rhino is seriously dillusional. Breeding rhino's is an extremely difficult process. As such the loss of one to the gene pool even for monetary compensation is not viable. Especially with the out of control poaching in the current climate. I would seriously rethink about doing a hunt of this nature..... No matter what permits you can get.

Paul, with you being an apprentice hunter I am shocked that you would make such an ignorant statement. Once a black rhino is past breeding age it is finished contributing to the gene pool(except for its sperm, which has undoubtedly been banked).

So what is the owner to do with and over-the-hill rhino? Should he put the rhino out to pasture so that it can eat leaves and make big piles of dung, all while being guarded around the clock to keep the poachers at bay?

Stop and think how much harder rhino owners will work(and how much more they will be willing to spend) if they can make a net profit from their rhino farming.

If we take away the financial incentive the only people who will go to the trouble to try to save the black rhino are the few people who not only love these animals enough to spend spend their own money to save them, but also have the millions it takes to raise them. Think of your own country: would the government work to protect your elephant if they were not able to collect trophy fees on them?

To SteveGI and JBrown,

Point taken. As u say as a learner ph it does seem like a mindless statement, as hunting does preserve and conserve the animals we hunt.

Thanks

Paul

The way I see it, All of Africa's Wildlife and their range (be it Ranch or reserve) now has to be treated like Stock farms, where game management, culling and controlled off take is a requirement for healthy stock.
With the income that is naturally required to run these "wildlife farms" successfully, they must be able to generate funds by the controlled off take.
Shooting an old Rhino past breeding age to produce a massive income that helps in the protection of his offspring and range can only be a good thing, right?

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Shooting an old Rhino past breeding age to produce a massive income that helps in the protection of his offspring and range can only be a good thing, right?

Unless you are one of the "animal rights wackos" who believes that it is better to allow a species to go extinct than to allow them to be hunted.

The black rhino that was offered to me for this year in Vegas was priced around 350k. This included all fees, including a life size mount.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Fouche:
Breeding rhino's is an extremely difficult process. As such the loss of one to the gene pool even for monetary compensation is not viable.

Paul,

An animal too old to breed is already lost to the gene pool.

Maybe some one can help with another rhino breeding wrinkle I vaguely recall. I thought one of the reasons CITES would grant black rhino permits was that very old males actually decreased breeding success. IIRC, the oldest bulls can still hold territroy and do the bulk of the (attempted) breeding, but their success rate was low. By removing those bulls while they were still strong enough to control breeding rights but too old to do it effectively, the breeding success of a population as a whole would increase. I'm not sure where I heard this or if it is even a credible theory. Anybody have some insight?

Dean

maki
I was told almost verbatum the same thing about plainsgame.
Even after an male animal is past breeding he still has the instinct to hold onto his girlfriends & usually can overpower the younger males, therefore stagnating the breeding process.
Take the old man out & you'll have a burst of new calves coming.
This is not my opinion, it is from a very reputable safari operator in Namibia who has owned his own property for almost 30 years.

Ozhunter, you pretty much nailed it.
With all due respect Paul and Londonhunter, one of the primary reasons that Rhino made such a great "comeback" was the fact that they could be hunted. This gave the species a "value" which made it a worthwile investment for the private landowner to consider.
I would hazard a guess that more than 50% of the current Rhino population is owned by private landowners. These landowners, hunters or non hunters alike are sitting with a large investment that is under attack by the current poaching epidemic. Putting a stop to the hunting/Utilization of this species would devalue the Rhino to the extent that the private landowner would not be willing to run risk having Rhino on his property.
We could then find ourselves in a position where Rhino are only found in National parks and government reserves where they are already losing the battle to poachers.

What John Luyt said!
If it pays, it stays.

John Luyt is absolutely correct. The story of Ian Player's successful efforts in Zululand to restore the critically endangered white rhino needs to be told around the world, especially his belief that hunting was needed if private landowners were to be partners in the program.

Bill Quimby

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:
John Luyt is absolutely correct. The story of Ian Player's successful efforts in Zululand to restore the critically endangered white rhino needs to be told around the world, especially his belief that hunting was needed if private landowners were to be partners in the program.

Bill Quimby

I think he's already told it (not that enough people have read it).

Ian Player

Ian Player's book was written and published nearly forty years ago and therefore could not cover the success of his vision.

Time has proven his belief that regulated hunting can save an endangered species, and that needs to be told to the masses.

What is surprising is that there are members of this hunting forum, including at least one who lives in South Arizona, who are unaware of this.

Bill Quimby

For anyone that may be interested, a taxidermist I know is finishing up a restoration of a shoulder-mounted Black Rhino, and it is for sale. I don't know the $$$ amount, but I can put you in touch with him. I have a photo of it he sent me...it's awesome.