What's the difference between shooting a deer at 80yds, or 50yds and an elephant? Nothing, except that the shot on the deer is more difficult because it is a smaller target.

Dangerous game isn't dangerous unless you are at spitting distance. In fact, DG before the shot is almost limited to ele, tracked lions, tracked leopard, hippo out of water, all only when CLOSE.

If you don't want to approach close you are cheating yourself and, imo, the game as well. Might as well stay home, save the $'s and hunt deer.

JPK

Hunting dangerous game exciting, YES! Tracking closing the distance to yards and sometimes feet and making the shot.
You do not have the time to worry or even think about what can happen. After the incident, charge you may get the shakes. Unless one runs and then he has to look at his mettle in the mirror.
I have been fortunate to be good at the game of hunting and I have not lost any zeal to whatever animal I am pursuing. But I have practiced my trade and prepared for the hunt.

Hunting DG is like playing a game at its highest level, but it is for real, the game of life and death.

Mike

Many thoughtful posts here, some almost lyrical. Thank all of you.

I concur. The (maybe "a")principal allure of DG hunting is the potential for danger. For my own part, let the next guy have it. The "D" in DG is why I am such an admirer of plains game hunting.

One other thing. You men do realize, I'm sure, that we are perilously close to another Mark Sullivan thread. Perilously close. Continue to post at your own risk.

Is Facing Danger The Attraction?

This reminds me of something Woody Allen said when asked, "Do you think sex is dirty?" His reply, "Only if it's done right."

There is more to consider when approaching a DG animal to close distance than just how dangerous it is to you and your PH. You must also consider how your actions will affect the rest of the herd. Let's say you are trying to take a tuskless cow elephant out of a herd. The danger may be more from the herd matriarch than from the tuskless cow herself. If you get too close the risk of the matriarch charging you goes up exponentially. You may have to shoot her in a self defense situation that was unnecessary, if you had taken the tuskless from a greater distance that allowed you to slip out of the area before the matriarch found you. If you have to shoot the matriarch and she has a one month old calf by her side, will you live up to your responsibility and shoot that calf? How will you explain it to the Parks Dept?

465H&H

So there are those who do it for the danger afterall, and there are those for whom it's the love of hunting generally and for whom the dust of Africa on the boots takes the old game to the highest level.

A couple more analogies come to mind. Bull fighting and bull riding. I'll never do either, but I do have a relative who was a professional rodeo cowboy. Of the two, does the matador not come closest to hunting dangerous game? At least in spirit? Is it not the same culture and art with the unique beauty about it? I think it is.

As far as the other analogies, I've never tried sky-diving but I agree with the statement that you must feel like a by-stander watching your own fate be revealed without a lot you can do about it. Same with bungee jumping I imagine. Or going over the falls in a barrel.

The race car driving and the deep sea diving are different. You're the master of your fate - up to a point anyhow. You do get to influence the result through your training. Provided you were paying attention.

For instance, can you guess what happens if you don't exhale the whole way on ascending from 100 feet down with scuba? It's completely different free-style, but in scuba you'd be dead from the bends. That's just one way to "buy the ranch" in that sport. Another is to panic. They say never panic and you can usually work your way out of a tight spot. On the other hand, if your situation truly is hopeless, then I guess it's OK to go ahead and panic...

Oh, one other little tip about scuba then on to other things. Some intentionally don't bother learning how to identify man-eating sharks or sharks of any kind. Then you'd be trying to figure out what shark this is instead of concentrating on what you're there to do.

Now, being in a war I think is a whole different category. It's answering the call of duty. I'm told by several elderly WWII guys the key to functioning properly as a combat infantryman is easy. You give yourself up for dead and go forward. And no, I haven't done that.

So, does all this apply to dangerous game. In some ways. It all seems a question of how bad you really want it and if it's enough that the risks are outweighed. Really it's a question with many different answers. Kind of like trying to pin down the real definition of the old expression, "I've seen the elephant". And that just might apply in this context..

For me its getting in close and outsmarting whatever it is that I'm hunting. The big stuff (Ele & Buff) is just waaaay to fun to get in on top of....I get a sense that I'm outsized and am at a disadvantage....this makes me feel alive and humbled....taking the shot is just a small part of the overall experience, but should a charge happen then we do what we have to do....The most fun is determining what is a mock and what is a real charge....I think it is just plain thrilling...

...Some folks like to ride in airplanes, some like to jump out of them....Some ride horses for relaxation, some ride rank-ass'd bronchos for the thrill...I expect it is the same with DG hunting


To each his own as far as I'm concerned.

In hunting, the quarry may not be the most dangerous part of the endeavor.
I have become extremely anxious hunting mountain goats on a very steep shale slide in BC.. All those saucer sized rocks sliding under your feet and "IF" you go, it is a Loooooong way down! I have been far less nervous checking on cached meat in the alders when bears were present.
Too me it is simply the adventure!

EZ

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:

Too me it is simply the adventure!

EZ

Me too.

Then there is this oscillation stuff – you know the thrill of extremes like hot&cold, up&down, love&hate, drunk&sober … I would agree that being in the middle is sweet, however it gets bloody boring after time …I need that deviation to admire and appreciate the other end – the bigger the deviation the nicer it is (that other end that is ).

And you can get that stuff when DG hunting aplenty – hard to imagine bigger deviation from quiet walk on tracks with quarry on your mind to feasible snapshot terror moments just to earn that crazy hyena like giggle when dust settles…equilibrium is much more than just a boring middle .

Quoted from Shaks post above:

quote:

The race car driving and the deep sea diving are different. You're the master of your fate - up to a point anyhow. You do get to influence the result through your training. Provided you were paying attention.

For instance, can you guess what happens if you don't exhale the whole way on ascending from 100 feet down with scuba? It's completely different free-style, but in scuba you'd be dead from the bends. That's just one way to "buy the ranch" in that sport. Another is to panic. They say never panic and you can usually work your way out of a tight spot. On the other hand, if your situation truly is hopeless, then I guess it's OK to go ahead and panic...

Oh, one other little tip about scuba then on to other things. Some intentionally don't bother learning how to identify man-eating sharks or sharks of any kind. Then you'd be trying to figure out what shark this is instead of concentrating on what you're there to do.

Shack,

Your lungs will burst before you rise 10' if you breath compressed air a 100' and then ascend without exhaling. You won't even get the opportunity to die from the bends, whic result from nitrogen which has disolved in your blood becoming gaseous as and after you ascend.

By a "free ascent" I meant breathing from a tank at 100' and then abondoning the tank and ascending feely, without additional air. You'll have enough in your lungs from that one breath at 100' to exhale continously through your ascent, since the air in your lungs will expand constantly as you ascend, and pressure will also constantly drop.

Panic will ensure that the situation is hopeless.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
For me its getting in close and outsmarting whatever it is that I'm hunting. The big stuff (Ele & Buff) is just waaaay to fun to get in on top of....I get a sense that I'm outsized and am at a disadvantage....this makes me feel alive and humbled....taking the shot is just a small part of the overall experience, but should a charge happen then we do what we have to do....The most fun is determining what is a mock and what is a real charge....I think it is just plain thrilling...

+1 Well put, Jeff!

It's not danger, per se, that attracts many of us to hunting dangerous game, but rather an amalgam of emotions that make it so compelling, including a unique sense of adventure, history, romance, the unknown, and yes, danger too.

Speaking from a modest sense of authority, no matter the adrenalin sport you may choose, there is no other activity that is more comprehensively enjoyable while you're doing it, and more conspicuous and thought consuming when you're not.

quote:

Speaking from a modest sense of authority, no matter the adrenalin sport you may choose, there is no other activity that is more comprehensively enjoyable while you're doing it, and more conspicuous and thought consuming when you're not.

Most accurate statement I've read here, including mine.

JPK, you're right. Entirely right. That's how I understand it too. At first I assumed free ascent meant the kind from the surface down and back up, where the air compresses on the way down and expands back with no harm done.

With scuba, I've never tried this (for obvious reasons) but I believe if you had to ascend in a hurry for some reason you'd actually need to virtually scream the whole way up to get rid of the air as it expands.

It's a dangerous sport. No question about that although it can be as dangerous as you want to make it.

Btw, I went on a dive trip once to Cayman and there was a retired 75 year old dentist along, who just wanted to prove he could do it. He did the training, checkout dives and became certified, or otherwise he wouldn't have been there. But he'd never been on an open ocean dive. He did just fine.

Some folks I think have kind of a "list of things to do" before they really get too old. And there's no reason why "seeing the elephant" can't be one of them.

Another man I knew about was elderly and actually dying when he decided to do that which he'd always wanted...an African shooting safari. He went and carried through with as much as he could before he finally weakened and had to be brought home.

Of course it's a factor! Then there are night traps...jorge

Yes.

And I make no apology for it.

One reason I love to hunt elephants is because you can hunt them close...

It is not only about the shooting, but the getting close, into the herd.

DG is only Dangerous when you are close...

It is all about the Thrill of Victory... And the Agony of Defeat...

If you are "scared" of Danger... then hunt deer.

PS in North America deer kill more people every year than bears...

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
JPK, you're right. Entirely right. That's how I understand it too. At first I assumed free ascent meant the kind from the surface down and back up, where the air compresses on the way down and expands back with no harm done.

With scuba, I've never tried this (for obvious reasons) but I believe if you had to ascend in a hurry for some reason you'd actually need to virtually scream the whole way up to get rid of the air as it expands.

It's a dangerous sport. No question about that although it can be as dangerous as you want to make it.

Btw, I went on a dive trip once to Cayman and there was a retired 75 year old dentist along, who just wanted to prove he could do it. He did the training, checkout dives and became certified, or otherwise he wouldn't have been there. But he'd never been on an open ocean dive. He did just fine.

Some folks I think have kind of a "list of things to do" before they really get too old. And there's no reason why "seeing the elephant" can't be one of them.

Another man I knew about was elderly and actually dying when he decided to do that which he'd always wanted...an African shooting safari. He went and carried through with as much as he could before he finally weakened and had to be brought home.

Shack,

I have free ascended from 100', at a moderate, easy going pace, and you can - really must - exhale a light but steady and contiuous stream of bubbles throughout the ascent.

As easy as diving can be in calm or moderate seas, and light current, open water diving can become challenging in heavy seas and stiff current. I have seen divers who thought the were experienced, and were in easy conditions, have a lot of trouble when it was rough and the current running strong.

I gave up tank diving long ago, prefering at the time to free dive, without the encumbrance of a tank or tanks and all of the gear. Much of my motivation was spear fishing, which was and still is illegal with tabks or a trigger gun where I spent time.

JPK

Yes, a slow steady ascent while gently exhaling is how I've done it. The deepest I did was 120' and I took some photos. The scenery didn't look like much while down there, just shades of blues and greens. But after being developed the colors were brilliant because of the light supplied by the flash.

The fascination with exploring that whole new (at the time) and gorgeous world trascended fear and pushed it way back. Watching your own bubbles rise, following the anchor chain upwards and seeing that beautiful blue above you gradually become a surface is so amazing you're not really thinking your life's on the line, although it is. Add to that what you just might find down there and you've got something.

But, you know, it's hard to say if these other activities really compare to facing an elephant or buffalo up close. Bull fighting was the one I thought might be closest, but really how many matadors get killed or maimed compared to dangerous game hunting? I sure don't know.

Perhaps DG really is both the most dangerous hobby and occupation of them all.

quote:

Bull fighting was the one I thought might be closest, but really how many matadors get killed or maimed compared to dangerous game hunting? I sure don't know.

Yes, I think bull fighting would be close. The matador is in control so long as he handles everything well and doesn't screw up... He is relying on himself, with help from his crew in case things go awry. Not unlike elephant hunting up close.

JPK

You don't see that many "brave" bull fighters anymore like you did in the 60s and 70s, but when you do, it's a thing of beauty. Over the top, between the horns, and buried to the hilt; not that media estocada and bail-out quickly shit.

That's how your DG hunt should be. Move in tight, place the shot perfectly, and stand your ground 'til he drops. If you've done that, you've done all you can do, and you can walk away with a sense of pride. There won't be a crowd yelling TO-RE-RO, but you'll have a sense of what he feels; particularly if the DG was coming-on when you dropped him.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
There is more to consider when approaching a DG animal to close distance than just how dangerous it is to you and your PH. You must also consider how your actions will affect the rest of the herd. Let's say you are trying to take a tuskless cow elephant out of a herd. The danger may be more from the herd matriarch than from the tuskless cow herself. If you get too close the risk of the matriarch charging you goes up exponentially. You may have to shoot her in a self defense situation that was unnecessary, if you had taken the tuskless from a greater distance that allowed you to slip out of the area before the matriarch found you. If you have to shoot the matriarch and she has a one month old calf by her side, will you live up to your responsibility and shoot that calf? How will you explain it to the Parks Dept?

465H&H

I am still waiting for some of you that prefer getting in close to elephants,( let's define close as less than 10 yards) to answer the above questions!

465H&H

Aerial combat in WWI comes to mind too. No parachutes. Canvas planes. No armor. Weapons malfunctions. Shooting your own propeller off (until they synchronized it). Plane catches on fire and you have four choices. What that must have been like...

They were literally knights of the sky. Geniune gallantry in pre humanist-socialist times when gallantry was much respected and admired.

Not much different than fighting a duel. One out of two chance and willing to sacrifice everything.

War is a great analogy, maybe the best, maybe even better than bull fighting. Except for one major difference. The motivation is different. It's done for duty or principle or collective self-defense. As a practical matter those probably amount to the same thing. And, in conscript times there was no choice about it.

At any rate, I prefer somewhat better survival odds. I'll get the enemy or a buffalo if I can. But I don't want to do a suicide charge or get right in the buff's face if it's not required.

Its a whole range of attractions of course, being on vacation, the countryside, enjoying your favorite gun, the tracking etc.

As to the post question, I would say regarding the bloody part of the sport, the attraction is 'the kill'(which 90% of people can do) more than 'the facing real danger'(which only about 2% of us enjoy doing)

If 50% or even 10% of us were getting killed by the animals, ie real danger you would have a completely different breed of guy doing it, ie the old white hunters- more along the lines of the danger loving duellist shack described above, and pro's.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
There is more to consider when approaching a DG animal to close distance than just how dangerous it is to you and your PH. You must also consider how your actions will affect the rest of the herd. Let's say you are trying to take a tuskless cow elephant out of a herd. The danger may be more from the herd matriarch than from the tuskless cow herself. If you get too close the risk of the matriarch charging you goes up exponentially. You may have to shoot her in a self defense situation that was unnecessary, if you had taken the tuskless from a greater distance that allowed you to slip out of the area before the matriarch found you. If you have to shoot the matriarch and she has a one month old calf by her side, will you live up to your responsibility and shoot that calf? How will you explain it to the Parks Dept?

465H&H

I am still waiting for some of you that prefer getting in close to elephants,( let's define close as less than 10 yards) to answer the above questions!

465H&H

There is nothing to answer that I see. First, lots of jr's get adopted by the herd in the event their mother dies or is killed. Second, no mercy killing in Parks areas. That means the calf becomes lion bait if not adopted.

Have had a tuskless fall on the calf of another ele twice. Once the little one got free with help from its mother, the matriarch. She would have come but for her calf. Kept coming at us and then running back to the stuck calf... Finaly stuck with the calf and freed it. The other was stuck for good, and we killed it so we could recover. I was about to raise my rifle to shoot it when the PH beat me to it.

Neither incident was the result of too close an approach. Just an example of s--t happens, like when a matriarch attacks and needs to be killed.

I would define close as within 15yds. While tuskless hunting, maybe 20yds in some circumstances.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
There is more to consider when approaching a DG animal to close distance than just how dangerous it is to you and your PH. You must also consider how your actions will affect the rest of the herd. Let's say you are trying to take a tuskless cow elephant out of a herd. The danger may be more from the herd matriarch than from the tuskless cow herself. If you get too close the risk of the matriarch charging you goes up exponentially. You may have to shoot her in a self defense situation that was unnecessary, if you had taken the tuskless from a greater distance that allowed you to slip out of the area before the matriarch found you. If you have to shoot the matriarch and she has a one month old calf by her side, will you live up to your responsibility and shoot that calf? How will you explain it to the Parks Dept?

465H&H

I am still waiting for some of you that prefer getting in close to elephants,( let's define close as less than 10 yards) to answer the above questions!

465H&H

There is nothing to answer that I see. First, lots of jr's get adopted by the herd in the event their mother dies or is killed. Second, no mercy killing in Parks areas. That means the calf becomes lion bait if not adopted.

Have had a tuskless fall on the calf of another ele twice. Once the little one got free with help from its mother, the matriarch. She would have come but for her calf. Kept coming at us and then running back to the stuck calf... Finaly stuck with the calf and freed it. The other was stuck for good, and we killed it so we could recover. I was about to raise my rifle to shoot it when the PH beat me to it.

Neither incident was the result of too close an approach. Just an example of s--t happens, like when a matriarch attacks and needs to be killed.

I would define close as within 15yds. While tuskless hunting, maybe 20yds in some circumstances.

JPK

JPK, my friend!

You said no mercy killing allowed by Parks but then you say you did just that or your PH did. I believe the proper protocol is to radio Parks headquarters and they will give permission to euthanize the calf or any other animal not on license that is wounded and needs to be destroyed. Perhaps neither would have happened had you waited until the tuskless was well clear of other members of the herd. Please don't take that as a criticism of you or your PH but as something we can learn from for the future. I ended up shooting through a cow and killing a young bull that we didn't know was there. It made us look much more closely on the next several elephant we took.

The question is still on the table of what responsibility we have if we cause a matriarch to charge, and have to kill it when we could have avoided it by shooting from a further distance.

I think your definition of close is very reasonable in most cases.

465H&H

Ever heard the expression dangerous game?

I have a tiny bone to pick with many of the posts here. In hunting dangerous game, you are not fully in control. You may think you are but Murphy hunts, too, and he has a nasty sense of humor. Bahati knows this. His main PH, Marius, saved my a$$ last trip when the perfectly shot buffalo refused to admit that he was dead and tried to put me out of his misery. There was no screw-up on my part. The bullet was perfectly placed and Mari said the old bull was dead on his feet. Unfortunately that old worry about a buff's adrenaline is well placed. This is always a possibility on DG. It's the "Tabasco in the gravy" that isn't there when you hunt other game. So while danger per se may not be the true appeal, the threat therefrom is ever present. Either enjoy it or don't go.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
There is more to consider when approaching a DG animal to close distance than just how dangerous it is to you and your PH. You must also consider how your actions will affect the rest of the herd. Let's say you are trying to take a tuskless cow elephant out of a herd. The danger may be more from the herd matriarch than from the tuskless cow herself. If you get too close the risk of the matriarch charging you goes up exponentially. You may have to shoot her in a self defense situation that was unnecessary, if you had taken the tuskless from a greater distance that allowed you to slip out of the area before the matriarch found you. If you have to shoot the matriarch and she has a one month old calf by her side, will you live up to your responsibility and shoot that calf? How will you explain it to the Parks Dept?

465H&H

I am still waiting for some of you that prefer getting in close to elephants,( let's define close as less than 10 yards) to answer the above questions!

465H&H

There is nothing to answer that I see. First, lots of jr's get adopted by the herd in the event their mother dies or is killed. Second, no mercy killing in Parks areas. That means the calf becomes lion bait if not adopted.

Have had a tuskless fall on the calf of another ele twice. Once the little one got free with help from its mother, the matriarch. She would have come but for her calf. Kept coming at us and then running back to the stuck calf... Finaly stuck with the calf and freed it. The other was stuck for good, and we killed it so we could recover. I was about to raise my rifle to shoot it when the PH beat me to it.

Neither incident was the result of too close an approach. Just an example of s--t happens, like when a matriarch attacks and needs to be killed.

I would define close as within 15yds. While tuskless hunting, maybe 20yds in some circumstances.

JPK

JPK, my friend!

You said no mercy killing allowed by Parks but then you say you did just that or your PH did. I believe the proper protocol is to radio Parks headquarters and they will give permission to euthanize the calf or any other animal not on license that is wounded and needs to be destroyed. Perhaps neither would have happened had you waited until the tuskless was well clear of other members of the herd. Please don't take that as a criticism of you or your PH but as something we can learn from for the future. I ended up shooting through a cow and killing a young bull that we didn't know was there. It made us look much more closely on the next several elephant we took.

The question is still on the table of what responsibility we have if we cause a matriarch to charge, and have to kill it when we could have avoided it by shooting from a further distance.

I think your definition of close is very reasonable in most cases.

465H&H

465H&H,

Yes, we killed the stuck little one. We relied on the game scouts ok and did what needed to be done. But that is an entirely different situation than a free ranging abandoned calf. That is where the no mercy killing rules apply, as well as to other wounded game. They are lion feed.

As I know you know, there are times when waiting might be possible and appropriate and times where it just isn't possible. One cannot predict with certainty how an elephant will fall, eh? (Or even if it will fall!)

Allowing the perfect to become the enemy of the very good or excellent will actually cause more trouble elephant hunting I think, with more charges, bluff and real. From 30 or 40 or so yds you look for your opportunity with tuskless, when it looks like its coming you move in and if it is there your continuing approach takes you as close as you can get before the tuskless turns to you. Bang, all hell brakes loose...

Of course, there are days and herds where you just can't get closer than, say, 20yds without inciting a charge, or at least a bluff.

As I said, s--t happens... Take your chances, live with your decisions.

JPK

To answer your question directly: YES.

That's what I like, a straight answer.

There have really been quite a few thoughtful responses here. I've learned a lot from them.

I only have one regret about this thread however. It appears I have a knack for bad timing. I had to go and start it at the exact same time there were three, no, four threads relating to exploits of the famous PH Sullivan.

At any rate, danger is then what it's all about for some but not for others. And who knows, maybe there are still others who don't even consider it dangerous in the first place.

Speaking of which, I once knew a highly decorated WWII vet, a combat forward artillery observer. They got up real close to the enemy and radioed in the fire. He was someone who wouldn't take credit for bravery and when told how lucky he was to be alive after that, said.."you know Bubba, that's what they all say..I just wish someone told me that beforehand..if I knew it was all that dangerous I probably wouldn't have done it.." In his case, he'd have done it.

Mike Smith:

You are so right about what adrenalin can do. I found myself looking at a buff turning to face me at about 30-35 yards.(I insisted that my PH help me next day but we just couldn't work out an exact distance) I felt a sensation as if time had stood still. The thought of "danger" never entered my mind. I had to make the shot-that much I understood. When the bullet hit him on the point of the shoulder as he turned (375 -300 gr. solid) he staggered and went almost to his knees. I had never in my life fired at an African DG before - but I recognized the sign of an animal very hard hit -and immediately felt triumph. I will admit that I saw cow elephants close up who trumpeted at me and made "false charges" -and who gave me3 a sense of real danger. (I told my PH that if that was a false charge that I never wanted to see the real thing!) I think that reasonable hunters don't place themselves in a situation of obvious danger -or so they tell themselves (including me)because we are confident that the rifle we carry will get us out of difficulty. It's when things suddenly go wrong that the real "danger" occurs.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
There is more to consider when approaching a DG animal to close distance than just how dangerous it is to you and your PH. You must also consider how your actions will affect the rest of the herd. Let's say you are trying to take a tuskless cow elephant out of a herd. The danger may be more from the herd matriarch than from the tuskless cow herself. If you get too close the risk of the matriarch charging you goes up exponentially. You may have to shoot her in a self defense situation that was unnecessary, if you had taken the tuskless from a greater distance that allowed you to slip out of the area before the matriarch found you. If you have to shoot the matriarch and she has a one month old calf by her side, will you live up to your responsibility and shoot that calf? How will you explain it to the Parks Dept?

465H&H

I am still waiting for some of you that prefer getting in close to elephants,( let's define close as less than 10 yards) to answer the above questions!

465H&H

There is nothing to answer that I see. First, lots of jr's get adopted by the herd in the event their mother dies or is killed. Second, no mercy killing in Parks areas. That means the calf becomes lion bait if not adopted.

Have had a tuskless fall on the calf of another ele twice. Once the little one got free with help from its mother, the matriarch. She would have come but for her calf. Kept coming at us and then running back to the stuck calf... Finaly stuck with the calf and freed it. The other was stuck for good, and we killed it so we could recover. I was about to raise my rifle to shoot it when the PH beat me to it.

Neither incident was the result of too close an approach. Just an example of s--t happens, like when a matriarch attacks and needs to be killed.

I would define close as within 15yds. While tuskless hunting, maybe 20yds in some circumstances.

JPK

JPK, my friend!

You said no mercy killing allowed by Parks but then you say you did just that or your PH did. I believe the proper protocol is to radio Parks headquarters and they will give permission to euthanize the calf or any other animal not on license that is wounded and needs to be destroyed. Perhaps neither would have happened had you waited until the tuskless was well clear of other members of the herd. Please don't take that as a criticism of you or your PH but as something we can learn from for the future. I ended up shooting through a cow and killing a young bull that we didn't know was there. It made us look much more closely on the next several elephant we took.

The question is still on the table of what responsibility we have if we cause a matriarch to charge, and have to kill it when we could have avoided it by shooting from a further distance.

I think your definition of close is very reasonable in most cases.

465H&H

465H&H,

Yes, we killed the stuck little one. We relied on the game scouts ok and did what needed to be done. But that is an entirely different situation than a free ranging abandoned calf. That is where the no mercy killing rules apply, as well as to other wounded game. They are lion feed.

As I know you know, there are times when waiting might be possible and appropriate and times where it just isn't possible. One cannot predict with certainty how an elephant will fall, eh? (Or even if it will fall!)

Allowing the perfect to become the enemy of the very good or excellent will actually cause more trouble elephant hunting I think, with more charges, bluff and real. From 30 or 40 or so yds you look for your opportunity with tuskless, when it looks like its coming you move in and if it is there your continuing approach takes you as close as you can get before the tuskless turns to you. Bang, all hell brakes loose...

Of course, there are days and herds where you just can't get closer than, say, 20yds without inciting a charge, or at least a bluff.

As I said, s--t happens... Take your chances, live with your decisions.

JPK

JPK,

Excellent reply and my thoughts exactly. It is too easy to get into more danger and trouble than you want or need with cow elephants to push the envelope with them. My PHs have shown much , much more respect when dealing with cow herds than with bulls.

465H&H

With DG, the adrenaline rush is simply bigger than it is with PG -- justified or not.

I, for one, am addicted to adrenaline and pursue lots of "dangerous" activities in life just for the rush. I'm always careful to prepare well for any risky activity -- I don't have any desire to get hurt and proper preparation minimizes the possibility that will happen. But, with no danger whatever, adrenaline is usually in short supply.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I do it to get out of the house and avoid chores.

That is a dangerous game.