quote:

We used to operate on joints by cutting into them and laying them wide open (arthrotomy)...now the gold standard is surgery through .5 cm incision using a telescopic camera (arthroscopy).

If one looks hard enough...one can find an ole Doc to fillet his knee open if one would like. For me...I'll have mine scoped ...and that is certainly what I give my patients.

Did the arthrotomy patients get up and walk again??? Yep...most did and some even better. Arthroscopy patients just do it in 1/3 of the time with >80% chance for improvement.

Will Woodleighs work to kill an ele...yep. Are they the best we have...no.

Comparing solids to surgery? Lane, seriously?

Brain... I think you are point on! Shoot what works best and what your PH approves and don't look back.

Sorry Russ, but I must disagree with the PII theory. Enough inconsequential increments added together is what took us from hot air balloons, to the Wright Flyer, to Prop Planes, to Jets, to the Moon, the Shuttle, etc, etc. It also took us from the slide rule, to computers that filled an entire floor, to laptops, to smartphones; wait - maybe you do have a point!

Todd

quote:

Sorry Russ, but I must disagree with the PII theory. Enough inconsequential increments added together is what took us from hot air balloons, to the Wright Flyer, to Prop Planes, to Jets, to the Moon, the Shuttle, etc, etc. It also took us from the slide rule, to computers that filled an entire floor, to laptops, to smartphones; wait - maybe you do have a point!

LOL... well since we let go with a couple of analogies on the BPE rifles and surgery, I have a question. Did you guys dress like M.C. Hammer back in the 80's because that was the style and seen as more progressive? I would pay good money to see Lane in those baggy-assed pants! Or did you still wear the classic Texas uniform of jeans, boots and a cotton long-sleeved shirt!

quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:
Comparing solids to surgery? Lane, seriously?

Actually...I comapre almost everything to surgery...'cause I'm a surgeon...easy for my feable brain to relate too.

But Russell if that one doesn't work...how 'bout this one???

Loan officers used to lend money on a hand-shake...probabably >90% got them payed back...will you loan me a couple hundred grand today on my hand-shake???

BTW...I think passing a bullet through the brain of an ele releates fairly well to surgery myself! Ever heard of a frontal lobotomy?

quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:

quote:

Sorry Russ, but I must disagree with the PII theory. Enough inconsequential increments added together is what took us from hot air balloons, to the Wright Flyer, to Prop Planes, to Jets, to the Moon, the Shuttle, etc, etc. It also took us from the slide rule, to computers that filled an entire floor, to laptops, to smartphones; wait - maybe you do have a point!

LOL... well since we let go with a couple of analogies on the BPE rifles and surgery, I have a question. Did you guys dress like M.C. Hammer back in the 80's because that was the style and seen as more progressive? I would pay good money to see Lane in those baggy-assed pants! Or did you still wear the classic Texas uniform of jeans, boots and a cotton long-sleeved shirt!

No man! I stayed with the Texan uniform, all the way. But I was never a Country Music fan. Rock and Roll all the way. I always believed that too much Country Music would cause a man's IQ to drop below 3 digits, at least temporarily!

Funny you brought that up though, my room mate on board the USS Roosevelt listened to that M.C. Hammer stuff constantly while we were on the Desert Storm Cruise. Man did that stuff drive me nuts! He used to go on for days about how M.C. Hammer and Vanilla Ice were the music of the future. Maybe you have another good point there! Any idea where I can get some Woodleighs?!

Cheers,

Todd

A couple of facts:

1. There is overwhelming evidence that solids with a large flat meplat will penetrate deeper than round nosed ones.

2. The Obamunists have ordered Barnes not to make solid bronze bullets because they are "cop killer bullets." Barnes has ceased while appealing.

Therefore I would not use Barnes, traditional Woodleigh, or Hornady. Copper bullets with a large flat me plat include North Fork, GS, and CEB. I think Woodleigh has also introduced a bullet of this shape.

Do not confuse North Fork cup point solids with their flat point solids. the only ones I have used in elephant are North Fork .458s and .375s. both worked fine.

Another advantage of flat points is that a 450 grain flat point will penetrate as deeply or deeper than a 500 grain round nose but recoil will be a lot less. You math be able to shoot more precisely.

Woodleigh solids might not be the best, but they're plenty good enough!

Keep them inside their velocity envelope and you'll be fine with them. I've used them to kill Cape buffalo, elephant and hippo, all with body shots and no drama whatsoever.

I confess, however, that I do prefer the Barnes FN solids these days.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:
Comparing solids to surgery? Lane, seriously?

Actually...I comapre almost everything to surgery...'cause I'm a surgeon...easy for my feable brain to relate too.

But Russell if that one doesn't work...how 'bout this one???

Loan officers used to lend money on a hand-shake...probabably >90% got them payed back...will you loan me a couple hundred grand today on my hand-shake???

BTW...I think passing a bullet through the brain of an ele releates fairly well to surgery myself! Ever heard of a frontal lobotomy?

Lane,

If your surgery is as bad as your grammar, God have Mercy on your patients - or are you in a spelling contest with Barringer?

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:
Comparing solids to surgery? Lane, seriously?

Actually...I comapre almost everything to surgery...'cause I'm a surgeon...easy for my feable brain to relate too.

But Russell if that one doesn't work...how 'bout this one???

Loan officers used to lend money on a hand-shake...probabably >90% got them payed back...will you loan me a couple hundred grand today on my hand-shake???

BTW...I think passing a bullet through the brain of an ele releates fairly well to surgery myself! Ever heard of a frontal lobotomy?

Lane,

If your surgery is as bad as your grammar, God have Mercy on your patients - or are you in a spelling contest with Barringer?

I came from deeeeeeeppp in the ranching country of Texas...in college my english teachers told me that they had their work cut out for them to get me where I could communicate well enough to even be a veterinarian.

Now I speak at international meetings and what am I most known for...my Texas dialect.

Brain 1,

I'll try to get back to your original question asking for responses from someone that has used both of the bullets you listed on elephants.

I have used both of them as well as the NF, CEB #13, and Woodleigh Hydro to take over two dozen elephants. Also I am a confirmed bullet digger.

The calibers that I have used include the 458 Win, 465 Nitro, 470 Nitro and 458 Lott. I haven't shot any elephant with the 500 Nitro so you will have to decide if my data from the above calibers is comparable to what you can expect from the 500. I think it is for the most part with the 500 probably doing somewhat better.

On full frontal head shots on elephant all of the listed bullets will exit the back of the skull. You will most likely find the Woodleigh RN in the first third of the neck, the Hornady DGS just in front of the shoulder bone and the NF, CEB #13 and Woodleigh Hydro in the loin meat just behind the shoulder. The major advantage that I see in using the Woodleigh Hydro is the immense amount of damage that it causes to elephant head bones compared to the other solids. The holes through the head bones with it were 1 1/4 to 1 1/2" across while the other bullets made holes of bullet diameter or slightly smaller. On behind the shoulder shots the Woodleigh RN will seldom exit but all of the others usually will, assuming no major bones such as the humerus, shoulder blade or spine are not hit. Heavy bones such as these will stop and mutilate even the toughest of bullets.

You have not said where in Zim you would be hunting and whether you will be hunting cows, management bulls or trophy bulls. Both answers could affect your bullet selection. When I hunt cow herds again, I will be using Woodleigh RN solids as they give all the penetration I need and with a greatly reduce the chance of bullets exiting my target elephant and hitting another behind it. That happened to me once and the resultant exchange with Zim Parks isn't worth it.

Several here have said that the various FN solids will out penetrate the RN solids but I can assure you that only pertains to soft tissue penetration. I haven't seen any FN design penetrate further in elephant skulls than the RN design. In fact the bullet with the greatest penetration on elephant skulls and the only one that I have tried that will consistently exit on head shots is the 550 grain Woodleigh RN solid at 2,150 fps from the 458 Lott.

My suggestion is to use whatever bullet that has been discussed here that suits you, know its limitations, including over penetration and load it to a full 2,140 to 2,150 fps and you will be very satisfied.

465H&H

Well, here is where my old friend 465HH and I are going to disagree on some things, and that is just fine, we are friends, friends can do that!

There are several of our own, AR guys, right here, that in the past have had Woodleigh FMJ Round Nose solids, veer off course, in elephant heads. I know them by name, but it is not my place to speak for them and I won't mention names. One of those individuals told me before his first elephant hunt that by testing I was basically wasting my time, just get some woodleighs and go shoot an elephant. Upon his return, he set up to immediately start his own test work, and decided the North Fork FN was his choice of bullets from then on. Others have had Woodleigh RN FMJ turn 90 full degrees from frontal and exit the side. Never touching the brain, had it not been for a quick second shot, that elephant would have been lost for sure.

I think Todd mentions here somewhere about how we all have seen the mighty elephant shot in the head, and run away! Many times! In each case, it's ALWAYS the shooter missed! Well, no doubt about it, misses happen, everyone misses one time or another. But NEVER EVER, NOT ONCE, do I hear anyone just QUESTION, what if the bullet veered off course? It happens, I know it happens, I know many other people who knows that they mighty round nose has a tendency to veer off course, but no one questions that? Why? Some are so devoted, and especially to Woodleighs, that it is a cult of sorts. Never would they admit any fault of the bullet. I will place a bet of any sort of money you want to wager, all those many many elephants we have seen run off after a head shot are NOT ALL MISSES, but yet, the fault of the bullet. We will never know this, as they are most of the time never recovered. Todd, I concur with you 100%.

I have shot elephant with round nose solids as well. The old barnes round nose. They do not give the depth of penetration, they do not produce any sort of trauma up front.

There is an old thread that I have, here from AR, about a fellow following up on a buffalo from the rear, I think with 500 Jeff, 570 Woodleigh FMJ, entered the rear, took a turn, exited the top of the back, not getting to the vitals, another one I think also from the rear, exiting the side.

Do not tell me that a RN will never veer off course in the field. It's a lie, plain and simple, they do. I have had and have personally seen RN bullets veer 90 degrees and exit. Not a woodleigh nor a barnes but a Lehigh designed .500 caliber, patterned directly after a Woodleigh. One cannot rely upon straight line penetration 100% of the time with any RN designed bullet.

Even a flat nose solid has to work within certain factors to give proper straight line penetration. Not all FN are created equal They need a 65% meplat of caliber, they need a proper nose profile, the top three nose profiles are BBW#13, North Fork, and the now soon to be obsolete Barnes Banded. The Barnes had a 65% meplat of caliber, the BBW#13 has a 67% meplat of caliber, and the NEW designed North Forks have a 68% meplat of caliber. Other factors that effect straight line penetration of solids are Twist Rate, Velocity, Radius of meplat, Nose Projection above bands or bearing surface, and now one of the last is Sectional Density.

I have worked with every single known solid projectile ever invented, thought of, or produced, 100s that have been nothing but wild ass prototypes. These factors are real. They can be taken to the bank.

I am the co-designer of the BBW#13 with SRose, and now in production with CEB. I have worked extensively with North Fork in designs that work in my own B&M cartridges. Sam says I have shot more solids than any man alive, or dead, and probably all combined. No doubt I have tested more. One might attempt to challenge the test work, but one cannot challenge the results. 100% of the time in the test work the RN fails. It fails so reliably that I have stopped testing them because of damage done to my indoor shooting range and range facilities. In every single test the proper designed FN solids--BBW#13s, North Forks, and old Barnes Banded, out perform by leaps, and bounds any RN design. Every Single Test--100% of the time. And it is not by fractions of a percentage it's by double and triple the straight line penetration. Samples a good Woodleigh, 465HH wonderful 550 458 caliber FMJ will drive sometimes 25-30 inches, never consistent because it's not stable, then veer off course and goes who knows where. Any good North Fork, BBW#13, or Barnes Banded even a 450 will drive dead straight to 55 + inches, 480s and 500s to 64-68 inches, depending on velocity, all dead straight.

OK, well and good for test work. Here is the deal, what is SUCCESSFUL in the Test Work--Is Successful In the Field--100% of the time! There are no surprises. It will not be successful in the test work and Fail in the field! Now, a RN does better in the field than it does in the test work. But so do all of the bullets! I have shot enough bullets in test work, enough in the field to be able to get correlating rules of thumb with both expanding, NonConventionals, and Solids. On average the rule of thumb is that any solid will penetrate 30% to 35% more in animal tissue than in the test medium. So of course, if a RN solid can drive to 30 inches straight in the test medium, rarely, but let's say 30 inches, then it can drive to nearly 4 ft in animal tissue. No elephant brain is further than 4 ft inside the head! So yes, it can be successful, IF IT DOES NOT VEER OFF COURSE BEFORE GETTING THERE?

I disagree with 465HH assessment of the head shot elephants, and especially the angled shot he is so fond of for some reason. I can't imagine taking this shot, but 465HH takes it on a regular basis. Neither frontal or side, but angled from the front through those most massive of bones in the head. A shot like that is not common, nor can be counted as common. I know that some of his decisions on some bullets are taken solely on observation of that shot. Successful, yes, but still not indicative of common. Personally, I am not good enough to take such a shot myself, and would never do so, I would opt for a much easier shot, frontal brain, side brain, and shoulder/heart shots.

465HH says everything one needs to know, he will use the Woodleigh FMJ where he knows he is scared to have too much penetration. Knowing penetration is limited with a RN design.

I believe in penetration. I have shot in herd situations many many many times. I do not count on a bullet that is limited in it's potential because I am afraid of penetration, I wait until a proper shot presents itself, this goes for solids or expanding. What happens if you need a shot and all the penetration you can get from the rear? OK, try this, a RN up front, who knows where it is going to go, upside down for all we know, then when the elephant runs off we can have proper solids for that job? Hmmmmmmm? Give me a break 465HH--Use a proper bullet to begin with, wait for a proper shot, then put an end to the affair altogether! Quit messing with less than the best!

Now, this discussion goes far beyond just straight line penetration, best terminal performance and what it takes to get there. Much has been said about Barrel Strain on doubles, and as I understand Brain 1 is using a double. As was also mentioned we have conducted very serious and conclusive tests that Woodleigh FMJ and Hornady DGS give higher barrel strain numbers than many other bullets, including the BENCHMARK BULLET--Woodleigh Soft. This is conclusive in several different tests, consistent in all tests, and different barrels and calibers, most recent in 500 Nitro. See those threads with that data, read it yourself.

Trauma produced up front! Flat Nose Solid Wins HANDS DOWN on this, every time. I know, I have seen it, and in fact believe this same trauma to have saved my own skin last June with an elephant at 3 steps away, while on my backside shooting up! Trauma to the heart was just incredible with a BBW#13 Solid--Something NEVER EVER SEEN with a round nose anything. Trauma is induced, I have seen it many many times on buffalo with flat nose solids. Yet, another PLUS in the Flat Nose Column!

I see it was mentioned that one should look at what his PH is carrying? That's the biggest load I have ever heard of. I have hunted with many many PHs, and they will use whatever has been left for them by prior clients, they will use whatever they can get their hands on, they don't have the choices we have here! They are limited in what they can get their hands on most of the time! So paying attention to that will tell you NOTHING in 99% of the cases!

Of course there are the PHs now that have seen some of the bullets at work first hand. They want them, and nothing but them. SRoses PH gave one hell of a testimonial, as did two of my PHs that have seen them work, Richard Cooke in Zimbabwe and Andrew Schoeman in South Africa. All of these are now working with BBW#13s. Those that have not seen or worked with these bullets have no real knowledge of such, so can't really make a comment on said! When they work with them, they won't go back to anything else, I bet rather large on that!

There is EVERY ADVANTAGE to Work with a Proper Designed Flat Nose Solid, and zero reason to not.

Michael

I found the testimonial from Sam's PH

Dear Sam:
I’m here in our camp in Rifa along the banks of the Zambezi River, reflecting on my hunts of the past season. I appreciate the cartridges you sent over loaded with the #13 solids and the Non-Con bullets. Their performance was truly remarkable.
The calibers that were used on my hunts included the .577 Nitro Express, .416 Remington Mag, and the .300 Jarrett.
I personally used my .577 to take down a charging hippo, a fleeing wounded Cape buffalo, and a backup shot on a trophy bull elephant. The bullets devastating and immediate shock and stopping power on the animals was as dramatic as I’ve witnessed in my 17 year professional hunting career. In all three cases, the animals hit the ground within seconds. The charging hippo plowed into the ground at my feet, the elephant dropped where it stood, and the fleeing Cape buffalo received a “Texas heart shot” and went down within 10-15 yards. I recovered the bullet from the buffalo under the hide of the chest. The bullet had blown through 5 feet of muscle, gut, and bone.
Most recently, my friend Doug Stein and I hunted Cape buffalo and various species of plains game. Doug was using the Non-Con bullet in his model 70 Winchester in .416 Remington mag. We ambushed a large mature buffalo after a brief stalk and Doug placed a shot behind the shoulder from approximately 35 yards. The stunning and swift shock on the buffalo’s system had him stumbling within a split second. The wounded buff tried to run with the other buffalo, however, he pulled up within 30 yards allowing Doug the time to place a 2nd shot behind the opposite shoulder. The 2nd shot literally swept the buffalo off his feet. I can tell you the geyser of blood rising from the wound was like none I have seen. Without being too graphic and over descriptive, I tell you this to properly describe the extraordinary amount of instantaneous hemorrhaging of the wound channel. Upon inspection of the buff’s vitals, I was amazed at the severity of the bullet wound including the multiple secondary wound channels from the bullet petals. No long walk required to follow up this buff!
Additionally, I was able to witness the .30 caliber Non-Con bullets used on a variety of other plains game species from Doug’s trusty .300 Jarrett. Without exception, each animal dropped in its tracks. The .30 caliber bullets included the plastic tip to help stabilize the bullets on longer shots over 200+ yards. The bullets performed with remarkable and consistent accuracy on each shot.
I plan to continue using these bullets in my rifle on all my future hunts. Thanks again for introducing me to these wonderful bullets.

Regards,

Cliff Walker
Professional Hunter
Walker/Watson African Safaris
wwalkerwatson@aol.com
Bulawayo, Zimbabwe

In Richard Cookes Annual Newsletter he makes mention of BBW#13s

Jim ---- , from Montana, has been threatening to hunt Elephant with me for several years, so we booked a hunt in October for Elephant only. Jim came with his wife Chris, and we again set up the luxury tented camp overlooking a waterhole for the 15 days. The camp was perfect – much better to be under canvas – and numerous animals were drinking day and night. Elephant numbers were good, and we passed up numbers of 50-60lb bulls before taking a 53lb bull on day 12.

A second bull was available, so we kept looking and 2 days later found a very old bull (66lb) which Jim also took . Jim was shooting an Army & Navy .450 N.E. built in the early 1900's. He shot both elephants perfectly.

Worth mentioning here are the excellent new bullets made by Michael McCourry and Sam Rose, called BBW # 13. These have come on the market recently and need to be looked at. They out-penetrate anything I have seen before (in fact out of 4 shots, Jim had two exit on a big Elephant bull – one body and one head shot!)



Now Richard is not quite correct, the bullets are not made by either Sam nor myself, but Cutting Edge Bullets. While Sam and I developed the bullet together, neither one of us is in the bullet business, neither of us receive any $$ whatsoever for any bullets by anyone. We do get a decent price on them since we gave the design to CEB. We just wanted a better bullet to do our hunting with, and by god we got it!

Michael

Well I can't top what Michael has said. Can't type well enough to try.
465H&H states rounds noses penetrate deep enough and don't penetrate too far as to hit animals behind the one you are shooting at.
If you can't count of a solid to penetrate and penetrate in a straight line then why use it. If a solid isn't going to penetrate a broadside body shot then why not just use a good soft point. Sure when there was nothing better available you had no choice. I like the looks of a round nose but looks ain't everything. Flats noses kill better on body shots and out penetrate any round nose made. Time is telling the story and those who have tried flatnoses aren't going back. Well maybe those that have rifles that won't feed anything but RNs. If I had to use one of those I'd still have a flat nose up the spout for the first shot.
I've shot both elephant and buffalo with RNs and FNs no not twenty or 50 but one each and I'm NEVER going to shoot a RN again.
Oh someone said look at your PHs belt to see what he is using. A lot of them have a collection of all brands and types of bullets because its what people left with them. My first PH had to borrow a 375 from another PH for my buffalo hunt and out of 10 shells he had I don't think two were the same make.
Sam

Michael,

What we are discussing is the question, "Does the FN solid always penetrate further than the RN steel jacketed solid?" Whether the angled shot is common or not or whether you would take it or not is irrelevant. Others besides me have and do use it. Face the FACT on angled elephant head shots, from the top of the head down shots and on well placed frontal head shots the 550 grain Woodleigh solid will out penetrate any 458 diameter FN solid. I have recovered two of these 550 grain Woodleighs from the stomach contents of elephant after frontal brain shots. The FN solids always stopped short of the stomach. Another case of the RN out penetrating the FN bullet. So it is incorrect for anyone to say that the FN solid will always out penetrate RN steel jacketed solids. I refuse to stick my head in the sand and refuse to see and try to understand why one bullet type does better in one type of tissue versus another. People that close their minds seldom learn anything useful. I do completely agree that FNs will do so on soft tissue only shots.

I stand to have my mind changed on the veering issue with good data. Unfortunately we do not have such data. Giving third person accounts where the person making the report is not available to answer questions about the shot is useless info. I have shot well over 125 RN steel jacketed solids into buff and elephants. I have yet to verify one case of veering. Does that mean that veering never happens? Absolutely not. But it does suggest that such bullet behavior is exceedingly rare. Why do FN supporters never report on FN bullets veering? Others have but for some reason FN supporters never seem to remember those. At this point in time we do not have enough verifiable data to say which if either bullet type is most likely to veer. But I stand to be convinced either way with the proper data.

465H&H

quote:

At this point in time we do not have enough verifiable data to say which if either bullet type is most likely to veer. But I stand to be convinced either way with the proper data.

What you and I will never agree upon is "What is Proper and Verifiable Data". Shooting into dead animal tissue is neither proper, consistent, nor verifiable. There are too many variables that cannot be repeated from shot to shot. I am sorry, we cannot concur on this. We never have been able to, and most likely never will.

Sorry, I cannot face the FACT on angled head shots either. For the life of me I can think of no reason to take such a shot? I concede you must be a much better shooter than I. Why on earth would one not wait a split second for either side brain, or frontal, or shoulder/heart? That has to be the worst shot ever, and I have never heard of anyone taking that shot on purpose. Never heard of anyone recommending that shot. Why? What better purpose is the angled shot over the frontal or side brain or shoulder/heart? Is it a more deadly shot for some reason? Certainly not something one would take on a charge, as that would be frontal, unless of course it was a drunk elephant coming at you sideways or sorta sideways? I am baffled somewhat on the why of this particular shot? Perhaps you might enlighten me.

As stated, I can show you data 100% consistent and reliable, but you want no part of it. You will never convince me either that you can verify data from an elephant carcass. I have been on site too many times, that test medium is fluid, constantly moving, and there is no possible way to verify, or measure exact data from test medium that is so inconsistent. On the other hand, in consistent aqueous material that can be studied and consistently verified you deny, because the results do not match what you would like for them to. And, when you do learn in animal tissue that a proper FN solid does in fact penetrate deeper, then it's too much penetration, and therefore not proper and in fact dangerous to hunt with because it penetrates too much. So my good friend, there is no way for you and I to ever agree, the "Woodleigh Cult" has you, and it's a strong hold. While you do everything possible to appear unbiased, you also find every way possible to dispute anything that might show the coveted RN in a bad light. I will stand by what I have always said, what is successful in the test medium is and always has been and can be verified successful in the field. Never once proven wrong.

There are folks right here on AR, they have presented their own accounts time and again over the last few years that you and I have been discussing this. Need I have to remind you every 6-8 months of this again? And yes, I know all too well how many hundreds of RN you have fired and never once had a failure of any sort. That is what they all say, even when they miss, or think they missed. I personally have never had a FN veer off course, so I cannot attest to that. I do recall your old buddy account for a North Fork veering, but as I too recall the nose had been damaged, and as I have always accounted, all FN nose are not created equal and that construction is part of the Factors of penetration, which I think I forgot in the post above, but rest assured it's on my wall in the lab. Remember the T' Rex tests? Common knowledge about construction, brass and copper, regardless of bullet maker.

I think that we must concur that we will always be at odds on this issue. I am more than willing to yield our disagreement and leave it to the future, and to let others decide for themselves. In time after enough use I am very confident that the old standby RN is on it's last legs, going very much the same direction as the lead ball and the bow and arrow.

HEH....

Thanks
Michael

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
We used to operate on joints by cutting into them and laying them wide open (arthrotomy)...now the gold standard is surgery through .5 cm incision using a telescopic camera (arthroscopy).

If one looks hard enough...one can find an ole Doc to fillet his knee open if one would like. For me...I'll have mine scoped ...and that is certainly what I give my patients.

Did the arthrotomy patients get up and walk again??? Yep...most did and some even better. Arthroscopy patients just do it in 1/3 of the time with >80% chance for improvement.

Will Woodleighs work to kill an ele...yep. Are they the best we have...no.

BTW...NF solids are great too. It just seems the CEB BBW #13 design makes it regulate better in a double. In a bolt...as long as both feed well...equal.

In regards to 465 Michael...I stick by my quote above.

The one person I know that as a client has shot about as much game as anyone I know of or have ever heard of is Saeed.

What do you see him recommend??? Monolithic expading likes Barnes X (but now his own make) and Monolithic solids.

Next...Aaron Neilson...now a died-in-the-wool CEB fan (shot Barnes prior).

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
A couple of facts:

1. There is overwhelming evidence that solids with a large flat meplat will penetrate deeper than round nosed ones.

2. The Obamunists have ordered Barnes not to make solid bronze bullets because they are "cop killer bullets." Barnes has ceased while appealing.

Therefore I would not use Barnes, traditional Woodleigh, or Hornady. Copper bullets with a large flat me plat include North Fork, GS, and CEB. I think Woodleigh has also introduced a bullet of this shape.

Do not confuse North Fork cup point solids with their flat point solids. the only ones I have used in elephant are North Fork .458s and .375s. both worked fine.

Another advantage of flat points is that a 450 grain flat point will penetrate as deeply or deeper than a 500 grain round nose but recoil will be a lot less. You math be able to shoot more precisely.

"A couple of facts"

Bullshit.



The type of bullet banned is a solid pointed bullet, not the bullets anyone with any sense would use on an elephant. And only the Barnes bullets have actually been banned.

The "traditional Woodleigh" as everyone knows is not a pointed solid bullet.



PS I sense commercial interests in the posts of this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Woodliegh for me. Although as Russel says pretty much all solids on the market will do the job but Woodlieghs are tried and tested.

I have recommended them for the last 15 years and have only had 1 case when there was a question on its performance as there was a fair bit of deformation. Other then that 1 bull I could safely say that clients of mine have taken over 100 eles with no issues which says alot for woodliegh.

Only two cow elephant, but both successful frontal brain shots. One of the .450 NE 480 gr Woodleigh Round Nose FMJ's exited out the back of the skull. Both had no problems reaching the brain. The other ele had brain matter oozing out of one of the ears.

If it works, don't see the need to use any other.

Michael,

I don't know where you got the idea that I was reporting on bullets shot into dead elephants. I have never done that except for a possible insurance shot. But they were so quick that the heart on a brain shot elephant would have still been beating. It takes several minutes for the heart to stop after a successful brain shot. I can assure you that each and every bullet that I have shot into elephants have been into alive animals. Are you maybe confusing me with 500grains?

As to your question about angled head shots. It is no where as difficult at you make it seem. Often the elephant is not looking at you but at someone else or perhaps another elephant. On a charge it may not be charging you but the PH or a tracker so you don't have a straight on shot. I have seen this on two occasions. Two more cases include an elephant that has just passed you and to make the shot you must place the bullet behind the ear and into the neck to reach the brain. The second is a case where you have missed a frontal and the elephant is running at an angle away from you and you have to place the bullet in a similar location. I have had all of these scenarios occur and have yet to not make the shot. I certainly don't claim to be anywhere near as good a shot as you obviously are. In my opinion, until you can reach an elephants brain from any point in a 360 degree circle around the brain you are an elephant hunting novice. Add maybe 150 Woodleighs used on 100 elephants reported by Buzz to my 125 and we are up to around 275 without failure.

Now I am all for you using whatever bullet that you have the most confidence in. Confidence is at least 75% of success. What I have a problem with is the fact that you have never used a RN steel jacketed solid on elephant or buff but don't seem mind telling us what they will do. I would suggest that you try some but I know you won't and that is fine with me.

You still haven't told me why the 550 grain Woodleighs I used out penetrated the FN solids!

Smile my friend, differences of opinion make the world interesting. Wouldn't this forum be dull if we all agreed on everything.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
A couple of facts:

1. There is overwhelming evidence that solids with a large flat meplat will penetrate deeper than round nosed ones.

2. The Obamunists have ordered Barnes not to make solid bronze bullets because they are "cop killer bullets." Barnes has ceased while appealing.

Therefore I would not use Barnes, traditional Woodleigh, or Hornady. Copper bullets with a large flat me plat include North Fork, GS, and CEB. I think Woodleigh has also introduced a bullet of this shape.

Do not confuse North Fork cup point solids with their flat point solids. the only ones I have used in elephant are North Fork .458s and .375s. both worked fine.

Another advantage of flat points is that a 450 grain flat point will penetrate as deeply or deeper than a 500 grain round nose but recoil will be a lot less. You math be able to shoot more precisely.

"A couple of facts"

Bullshit.



The type of bullet banned is a solid pointed bullet, not the bullets anyone with any sense would use on an elephant. And only the Barnes bullets have actually been banned.

The "traditional Woodleigh" as everyone knows is not a pointed solid bullet.



PS I sense commercial interests in the posts of this thread.

John,

Your statement is not 100% correct. The bullets currently banned are Barnes Banded solids of certain calibers that are deemed to be capable of being shot from a pistol. While most of your statement is true, a couple of noticeable exceptions exists. Specifically the Flat Nosed Barnes Banded Solid in .375 (375H&H and other variants) and the .410 (450/400) are currently banned. For that matter, so are the new Round Nosed Barnes Banded Solids in those calibers.

Those ARE certainly bullets people with any sense would use to shoot at an Elephant. Unless you are making a statement against using the 375 or 450/400 on elephant!

Indy does have some incorrect information in his post however concerning type of metal used and bullet shape of the different brands. More than I want to try and sort out.

465HH

quote:

In my opinion, until you can reach an elephants brain from any point in a 360 degree circle around the brain you are an elephant hunting novice.

Count me as a novice then, and will be the rest of my life. I think there are better shots than that angled shot, I would not take it.

quote:

. I certainly don't claim to be anywhere near as good a shot as you obviously are

I have made no such claims at all. I think it's getting late and you are confused a bit about what was said exactly. I claimed to not be as good a shot as you, as I could not attempt your angled shot.

275 Woodleighs--No Failures at all. No escaped elephants, no failures, 100% sure of that?

150 Woodleighs on 100 elephants on one hand, 125 Woodleighs ??? elephants on the other, no failures, no lost elephants, all 100% sure every single bullet drove dead straight, every time, and each and every time there is validation to that, measurements and validation? Kinda smells to me, But if you say so I won't nor cannot dispute that, it's your word remember. As a gentleman I will take it on your word.

You may continue to have a problem with me, as I will continue to tell you over and over, I don't have to use a Woodleigh steel jacketed bullet in the field to know what potential it has to fail. You say it HAS NO POTENTIAL TO FAIL IN THE FIELD? YOU SAY IT IS 100% Stable in the field and does not veer off course! Has no potential to veer off course. Cannot veer off course. Of 275 Woodleighs--NONE have Failed or veered off Course! Your words?

I have never stated they do so consistently in the field, only that they have by others that have used them, and that the potential is there for all RN designs to do the same. Yes, they are not stable in aqueous material, agreed? Of course, 100% of the time, they are unstable. Most animals I know of are made of aqueous materials, one cannot deny the nose design is unstable in aqueous materials, that is proven way beyond my work. Neither is a FMJ pointy bullet, not stable.

No, I WILL NEVER AS LONG AS I WALK THE FACE OF THE EARTH DIRTY MY BORE WITH A RN FMJ BULLET or ANY RN MONO DESIGNED BULLET WHILE IN THE FIELD and MY LIFE, or THE LIVES OF THOSE AROUND ME MAY DEPEND UPON MY BULLET DOING IT"S JOB! I WILL USE A BULLET THAT I KNOW BEYOND ANY SHADOW OF ANY DOUBT THAT I HAVE THE VERY HIGHEST PERCENTAGE OF SUCCESS WITH, AND IN THIS CASE OF WHICH WE SPEAK NOW, IT WILL BE A PROPER FN PROFILE, ABOVE 65% MEPLAT OF CALIBER SOLID.

As I know with zero doubt regardless of the millions of elephants shot by you and all the Woodleigh FMJ Cult, that a proper FN designed solid is the better bullet and in time will continue to prove itself over and over again.

quote:

You still haven't told me why the 550 grain Woodleighs I used out penetrated the FN solids!

Nope I can't tell you this. The only time I have ever seen or heard of such is from you. So being a gentleman, once again I have to take your word on that.

Oh 465HH, as always, there is a big smile on my face, no worries mate! It's been our bi-yearly match once again and as always a pleasure! HEH............ Now really, I have far more important matters in which to partake of, and I will leave you with it now, I think all that have been around a few years know that while being pals, we still bump heads on this subject and that is dandy. Stand Your Ground! I fully Intend to Stand Mine! Like a Stone, we may never waver!

Enjoy, and I am pleased you nor Buzz have never lost and elephant to those awful RN things you boys still play with, I suppose you guys have just been lucky chaps! Well, Luck is sometimes with us all my friend! More of it to Ya!

Later boys!
Michael

.465 H&H,

I gave you the perfect situation for the FMJ RNS in JudgeG's thread.

Michael,

In the interest of accuracy I must say that the number of Woodleigh RN solids that I have used on elephants is in the 50 to 60 range not 125. I included those used on buffalo. My bad! I haven't lost any elephant to Woodleigh RN solids but did lose one to a Woodleigh Hydro. A badly muffed body shot. I had one Woodleigh come apart at the seems and completely shed the jacket from the steel core. The elephant was killed though. A 550 grain 458 from a Lott. I sent the recovered bullet and the rest of the box back to Geoff McDonald at Woodleigh and the result was a bad batch of jacket material with the wrong hardness. So we have 125 + 55 for 180 Woodleigh RN fired into elephant with two bullets that showed significant deformation. That comes out to a bullet deformation rate of 1.1%. Since Buzz recovered the bullet no elephants were lost with the Woodleigh RN bullet. I missed the frontal shot on a large bull last year when using the CEB#13. It turned and ran after the shot but I was able to drop it with a spine shot before it got away. Now maybe I didn't miss the brain but the bullet veered. Actually, I don't think it did but it could have. The spine shot didn't exit and the bullet was found in the muscle opposite the spine. Now I believe the CEB #13 will prove to be an excellent solid for those requiring maximum soft tissue penetration.All together so far maybe 6, 8 or 10 elephants have been shot with the CEB #13? Hell, I have shot twice that number using Woodleighs by my lonesome. So the jury is still out on its use on elephant. I will be very surprised if it doesn't perform admirably.

465H&H

465HH

A little "accuracy" can go a long way eh! As for the total number of elephant currently with the BBW#13s I think it is around 16-17 right now, some have not been reported, in fact I have been waiting on some guys since last year, asked me not to report because they were doing some sort of article, and I have yet to see either report or article, so.........??? I have it 16-17 right now total. Still lot's to go for sure. I have all the confidence in the world they will turn out to be a "World Class" bullet.

At any rate, I have accomplished my mission with them, which was to find the right bullet for my B&M rifles, so that I might be more successful in my adventures afield. What the rest of you do, well, quite frankly does not effect me personally in any way. You are welcome to ride along, but if you choose not to do so, nothing to me. I am willing to share anything I do here, BBW#13 is part of that, but only a part, there is much I do here to increase effectiveness, I have even started blending powders last week, if I come up with something good, I have no economic interests in any of it, so it gets shared. What you choose to do with that matters little, I have made my choices. I do what I do for my success and to satisfy my own curiosity, I am a curious sort.

Good Deal, now I must get back to trimming that damned brass now! Whew...I have almost used up all my excuses not to return!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:
LOL... well since we let go with a couple of analogies on the BPE rifles and surgery, I have a question. Did you guys dress like M.C. Hammer back in the 80's because that was the style and seen as more progressive? I would pay good money to see Lane in those baggy-assed pants! Or did you still wear the classic Texas uniform of jeans, boots and a cotton long-sleeved shirt!

Russ,
I have never even owned a short sleeve shirt (other than a few T's for the lake) or any jeans other than Wrangler Cowboy Cuts so you got me there.

But brass solids are not contemporary. Someone not so long ago showed a pic of one with driving bands in an old NE cartridge made earlier in the 20th century by a European company I believe. Barnes has been making them for a while now too.

CNC machines have just made them economical to produce which always drives the market.

Michael and Sam just perfected the design for doubles with their Bastard Bullet Works #13 design. Cutting Edge Bullets ran with it. Michael and Sam have also shown beyond a shadow of doubt that they are safe to shoot in vintage doubles...safer tham Woodleigh steel jacketed solids in fact.