Ann brings up some good points. In addition to the initial investment, there would need to be an escrow account. I think it could be done.

quote:

Originally posted by RBHunt:
Ann brings up some good points. In addition to the initial investment, there would need to be an escrow account. I think it could be done.

Of course as Ann points out there are a HUGE number of other considerations. Another very important one would be the corporate constitution and how such an investment is to be governed and managed?

The original post was put up as a bit of a joke but with serious intentions. It should be looked at with serious analysis as well.

Would there be a proper propectus issued as this is a VERY public offering? A prospectus exists for very good reasons as it is there to protect would-be investors.

Also if such a thing would be done, why only look at this ONE property? I am sure there are dozens on the market. Peter's idea isn't bad, but if I invest, I want the best deal possible.

An independent market valuation of property and stock.

Who would manage the investment ie receive monies? What commission would this person want? What happens if the offer is not fully subscribed? Will Balla Balla underwrite it?

What is the RETURN to shareholders? ie I assume shareholders would end up booking out the place each year, so a fee for animals and daily rates would be necessary. For those shareholders not able to pay, they want a monetary return. Why would the non-hunting members want any thing else than full market prices charged for hunting?

Any impediments to foreign ownership which in this case would be 100%?

Is their any native claim on the property?

Not throwing spanners into it, but there are serious questions to ask in any million dollar investment.

quote:

Let's get down to the nitty gritty. Stuff for future land owners to think about!

A good contact to the local police wouldn't be bad either:

British writer jailed after "defending himself"
By: Frans van der Merwe

MAKHADO (LOUIS TRICHARDT) – A spate of contentious and possibly unlawful detentions in Limpopo Province culminated this week in the arrest of a prominent British subject, who received death threats and requested police protection against intruders who allegedly assaulted him in his home on a farm near the town.

The police at Makhado police station, who were summonsed to protect the victim against physical intimidation and death threats, arrested the victim and locked him up in the police cells, whilst allowing the intruders to freely roam the unlocked and unprotected farm property. The victim was arrested on a charge of “attempted murder†after he fired two warning shots into the roof and one into the floor of the house, to scare off his attackers who assaulted him at his home. At the police station he was locked up in the notorious Cell 2, allegedly reserved for known roughnecks and those who are held in connection with the most heinous offences.

The retired British businessman and writer, Mr Gordon Stephen Spence of the farm Nooitgedacht in the Soutpansberg Mountains, said he was not allowed to lock his house and at the police station was denied access to his lawyer. He described the actions of members of the local CID as “an unbelievable display of dangerously unprofessional and amateurish conduct by a bunch of buffoons.†He said they acted like “a bunch of Girl Guides†and warned that their unprofessional conduct will not be conducive to foreign investment and indeed foreign visits to this part of the country.

“South Africa should be ashamed of such policemen.â€

Mr Gordon said as a British subject he is accustomed to civilised standards.

“I was appalled and indeed frightened by the total, utter abuse (of power). They are supposed to be policemen, not judges, jurors and executioners. I received no protection from them. Instead it seems that all they wanted to do was to hurt me.†He indicated that he is seriously reconsidering his considerable investments in South Africa after his ordeal.

Mr Spence singled out individual policemen for their highly professional and humane actions. He had high praises for inspector Junior Pauer.

“He was a real Guardian Angel. He quite literally saved my life. I feel desperately sorry that such professional and highly competent and caring officials should be afflicted with such buffoons.†Pauer, seeing his predicament, activated professional assistance. The charge of “attempted murder†was altered by the public prosecutor to a charge of negligent discharge of a firearm and he was eventually let out on bail of R500 after continuous professional intervention to end his ordeal of several hours. He appeared in court on Wednesday. The case was postponed to 22 July for a decision by the DPP.

An attorney in Johannesburg, Mr Anton van Aswegen, who initially requested the local police to assist Mr Spence against his attackers, said he was astonished to learn that his client - the victim of serious intimidation and physical attack – was locked up by the police.

“When I requested the policeman on duty to move my client to a safer cell, he said that they do not have another cell available. When I insisted that they protect him against inmates who threatened to sodomize him, the policeman said: ‘That is not our problem’. When I asked him his name, he refused to identify himself and slammed down the telephone.â€

The policeman’s identity is known to Zoutpansberger.

Mr Spence said what happened immediately after the policemen slammed him into the cell, convinced him that it was indeed a setup by the police, who was obviously annoyed by his continued objections against his unlawful arrest.

“They did not like my ‘pompous English attitude’ and I had the impression that being locked up with hardened criminals was to teach me a lesson.†Almost immediately he was confronted by four inmates who first wanted to steal his jacket and shoes, and then bluntly informed him of their intention to sexually violate him. Only a courageous robust counter-warning by him scared them off.

Mr Spence said he was joyfully surprised by the prompt support he received from farmers, who are members of the local farm watch. They arrived at the police station and demanded to know: ‘Where is the Englishman.’ Thank Lord Jesus that they were there. They remained there until I was released, and in fact escorted me back home, after the police refused to do so. The Boere insisted on seeing my wife and I safely home. When we arrived there, one of the intruders, whom the police left there, was in fact still in my house. They requested him to leave, which he immediately did.â€

Local lawyer, Mr Charles Pieterse, said there are several worrying aspects in the whole incident:

Mr Spence was taken to the police station at 5:30 and held there until 21:00 when Pieterse arrived there to assist him. There was no docket available and the policemen who arrested him were also nowhere to be found. The docket only arrived more than an hour later, which means that he was in the mean time being unlawfully detained.

Although Mr Spence was a complainant, nobody bothered to open a docket against his attackers. When the police escorted Mr Spence out of his home, they left the house unguarded with the people he complained about.

At the scene of the incident two shots were clearly visible in the roof and one in the floor. Mr Spence made a statement that those were warning shots. The police nevertheless arrested him on a charge of attempted murder.

“The fact of the matter is that one must first look at the affidavit, properly investigate the scene, and then decide what the charge should be. If I did not request the prosecutor to come, the charge would have remained and he would have been refused after hours bail. He would have had to spend the entire night in the cell and his wife would have had to return home alone, without police protection, to where the assailants, against whom the initial charge was laid, were still present.

“When I requested the station commissioner to send a police escort with the couple, she said: ‘I won’t do it if the farmers are going along. What if the farmers attack the police?’â€

“It is highly unprofessional to have a person detained without a docket and without an investigator. Luckily the farmers gave support and made sure that the situation was safe.â€

“It seems as if there are policemen who consider arrest as a form of punishment which they can mete out at will. The police, who are supposed to assist in crime prevention, were well aware that Mr Spencer’s attackers could still be at the house. Yet they still, after taking away his firearm, refused to escort him back home.†Mr Pieterse thanked the concerned farmers who escorted the couple home and also the prosecutor for their assistance. “The police can be assured that this matter will be taken further and that the culprits will be identified and dealt with.â€

It was, in the mean time, reliably established that police at the Makhado police station and in the rest of the Vhembe district are under pressure to increase the arrest statistics for the area.

When the Police Communication Officer for the Vhembe District, Supt. Alwei Mushavanamadi was approached about the incident, he furnished the newspaper with a media release which stated that the police at Makhado have opened a case of negligent discharge of a firearm against 56 years old Mr Gordon Spence, following the allegation that he fired three rounds next to the complainant, Mr Thomani Simon Nenghovela, after a short argument.

According to the media release the police were phoned and on their arrival found three empty cartridges on the scene and Spencer was arrested. According to the media release Spencer on his arrival at the police station made a bail application through his representative and bail of R500 was granted and paid.

The official police statement makes no mention of the initial charge of attempted murder or of Mr Spencer’s incarceration in the police cells.


HUNTING ONE HOUR FROM CAPE TOWN
http://www.kapstadt.de/lemberg

Sunshine

WE are not immune anywhere in the world from this type of thing, of cource Africa and SA is bad /// One wonders how over 4 million whites live there

You guys wil of cource know that good old NZ is the clean green best place on earth to live by now ///

Hey check this out:

Leader of Maori security force arrested
04 July 2005

The leader of a self-styled Maori security force was this morning locked up in a Gisborne police cell and unable to comment on a nationwide furore that has erupted over her group's "sovereign orders" for rent.


Sue Nikora, "the prime minister of the Maori Government of Aotearoa", is due to appear in Gisborne District Court tomorrow morning, charged with being a party to people impersonating New Zealand Police, District Commander Inspector Waata Shepherd said this morning.

The rest of her "troops" would probably be joining her today, he said.

The group went to ground last week after police issued an alert to local moteliers, warning them that they could be approached by members of the group demanding money.

But inquiries since then had enabled police to identify most members and Mr Shepherd said they would all be "rounded up" today.

Police initially believed the group were Maori activists promoting sovereignty claims but inquiries since then indicated that their intention was based on a fraudulent scam, Mr Shepherd said.

Anyone approached by members of the group should ignore their request and contact police.

Just wondering if there may be more to the personal safety issue.

quote:

Many refer to South Africa as the crime capital of the world.


http://www.iss.co.za/Pubs/CRIMEINDEX/01VOL5NO1/World.html

quote:

South Africa and Southern Africa are probably the most murderous societies on earth, even with the probable under-reporting.

...

With the massive increase in organised crime, and violent crime in South Africa, it is all the more incomprehensible that the government should be turning their attention towards disarming the potential victims through more rigid firearms control laws, rather than re-instating the death penalty as a deterrent for violent crime.

http://www.rense.com/general39/reose.htm

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:
Beautiful ranch, Peter! Interesting concept on group ownership, but, let's get down to the nitty gritty.

What are the monthly expenses to run the facility? Such as:

How many staff are needed and do they live permanently on the property? What do they expect in wages, feed, housing, transportation, medical and child schooling? What happens if staff get killed by game or even a client?

What do the property taxes cost?

Fence maintenance, how much a year? Is it electrified for the rhino? What's the electricity cost? How much is spent replacing stolen and damaged wire?

Utilities, costs for phone, cable or satellite and electricity?

Poaching? How much game is lost per year? How much is spent to guard game like rhinos?

Predators? What is usually on the property and how many big kudu, impala, nyala, etc are they eating per yer?

Breeding programs? How much new blood is normally brough in, if any per year to stay genetically diverse?

Invasive plant species and maintenance? I know in Natal there are some very nasty alien weeds that need a large amount of management. Does the same happen here?

Game, does it need supplimental feeding at all during the year? Cost of lucerne if so? Any recent droughts, are the plant species diverse and of high quality and able to support a high density of game in good condition?

How many clients are needed a year to make the property pay for itself?

And just how often do those thatch roofs need replacing? Are the bore holes and equipment in good working order?

What other expenses have I passed up that owners need to be aware of?

Stuff for future land owners to think about!

Hi ~Ann

Hope all is well in the good OL USA foy you /

My brother Alan is out on a hunt with some USA clients from TX at this moment or might even be returning with them from Kruger Park, but I will briefly answer your questions, bearing in mind we are not into any serious discussions more a bit of a giggle and fun at the moment, so I will be brief

As I said in a previous answer somewhere, the ranch is not set up by Balla-Balla as a cash cow per se, we ONLY do a handful of hunts per year, sort of speciality botique clients whom want (comparitive luxury) easy going hunting and want to bring their wives girlfriends children grandmother or whatever along, and the guests want to shop sightsee ride elephants or laze aroung the pool or pop off the Kruger Park for a night ot two etc / WE are only about 3 hours max driving to the park entry gate.

With the above in mind, we dont do a profit loss sheet at all, it is essentially HOME for my family, they live on the ranch and offer hunting and safaris more for a pleasent lifestyle meeting people aspect than to make a profit, so to be honest I dont know their expenses ///

BUT this might help give you a general idea ....

Proberbly 5-8 black men and women at any one time in total run the operation, with 1 farm manager white guy, and then my brother & his wife and kids chip in as required. Two of the staff would be at my brothers house looking after things there, couple of guys on the fence patrol repairing and checking for breakages /// dont know the wages but proberbly around the minimum wage + perks of the job etc /// if staff did get taken out it would be rare or very rare, as (apart from the rhino) plains game only habitat the property.

If a client was taken out we would hope they had medical cover as all our contracts state that is the clients care

I dont know the taxes cost

Fences are patrolled daily looking for breaks and YES it is a totally electrified compliant game fence, maintainance per year would be the cost of not more than a a few Impala proberbly unless there was a major problem, to date we have been lucky with no major out of the ordinary problems of wire theft /// In SA the villians prefer to steal the copper telephone wires than game fence wire, at least where we are it has not been a problem

Utilities, again I dont know as I live in NZ but it would not be close to what you pay in USA, especially when trading back to the USA currency equavalent

WE have poaching, no where in Africa is anyone immune. Mainly poachers with dogs and they go for warthogs impala or anything small that the dogs can get hold of, some use spears and dogs. Basically we manage it well and shoot the dogs and also infrequently we might use the services of a local anti poaching company, only if we are too busy ourselves with other matters like hunting on the other farm in the mountains /// it is hard to tell how many animals are poached per year, I would guess maybe 10-20 maximum !!

Preditors are not a problem, we have some good field practice taking out black backed jackal's //// more animals would die from natural causes than from jackal ///

I dont know the answer to the new blood issue, there is no special programme based upon any magic scientific studies

Plant species are also not a problem, prickly pears and allows are not in any abundance

In the 10+ years the ranch has been operational we would have brought in about 2-3 loads of lucerne only, and that has been within the last 3-4 seasons or when we have had drought conditions, which of course take out some game animals, but it is quite amazing how resilient wildlife is, generally speaking

I dont know how many clients are needed per year, as I said we dont do a profit and loss schedule, we just hunt as required. I would say 6-10 hunts per year would (more than cover) all the running costs, but I cant be specific ///

We from time to time replace some thatch, and we also have to maintain borehole pumps etc, that is part of farm life and impossible to avoid /// when I was at the property two years ago the thatch was just fine

We have a grader which we own and use it to grade the roads after the rainy season as the roads can become a bit rougher in the wet, but it is nothing major really

From my experience when I lived on the property for a year about (2 years ago) there were NO major expenses, all seemed to run well from what I could see, but then I was a guest living the good life I guess (-:

At the end of the day as I said and from what I can gather, most or a lot of those whom consider buying a ranch property ( in africa) seem to do it for the lifestyle more so than for the money, as until you sell you have the money tied up in the land and the game animals.

Game meat and the sale of animals is profitable, but we are not really into that in any big way /// we occasionally shoot for the pot for biltong or for local butchers whom may want meat. WE are pretty free and easy going in general terms and not intensive ranches

Peter

You could come up with a time share type arrangement. 30 blokes put up U$35K each for one week every other year, in a few years you would have your hunting free.

Poster above is correct about British pound and Euro exchange rates. A Brit or a Paddy with a half decent 4 bed detached house could sell up and buy the whole bloody place on his own.

Now, I wonder what the wife would say...

Reagrds

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
Not throwing spanners into it, but there are serious questions to ask in any million dollar investment.

NitroX brings up all valid points IMHO //

My personal and very general opinion which please dont hold me to is /

a) I need to FIRST ascertain from my brother is he genuinly keen to part with the property, and if so does he WANT a total sale ( Walk in Walk out ) inclusive of all game animals

b) provided the answer to a) is YES then we want a firm price offer from him so we know if it is even worth a starter

c) thirdly then once a) & b) are known then we can try to find out how to make a dream into a reality and with all pro's cons and bases touched ...

As pointed out by NitroX it would require a WATER TIGHT contract or whatever explaining very clearly what each share holder would get or expect as it is toooooo easy to say WOW we own aranch lets hunt till we drop /// it dont work like that in real life and the worst thing is to have a bunch of crazy cowboys plunder the resources

In an IDEAL WORLD I would think that the most important aspect was that a totally trustworthy (bunch of people) MANAGERS that are street wise and mature would need to reside on and manage the property, be careful of those outsiders well intentioned whom will offer to do the management for you, this is the most important aspect to resolve after an expression of interest might be agreed upon //

What is a good idea as well is to TRY and locate or contract a local SA resident whom will help with a bedding in period say 2-3 months maximum !!!

quote:

Originally posted by Claret_Dabbler:
You could come up with a time share type arrangement. 30 blokes put up U$35K each for one week every other year, in a few years you would have your hunting free.

Poster above is correct about British pound and Euro exchange rates. A Brit or a Paddy with a half decent 4 bed detached house could sell up and buy the whole bloody place on his own.

Now, I wonder what the wife would say...

Reagrds

If the wife had any sense she would say THANK GOD I got rid of the bugger and all those DAMN rifles and armoury clogging up the house / She can then look around for some NEW AGE metrosexual well manicured rosy cheeked BANKER or HIGH FLYER stockbroker operating in HIGH BROW London town

What is the female equivalent of a metrosexual /// I am looking for one of those especially if her father own's a brewery

Peter

Peter, my wife really doesn't like the metrosexual types. She like's 'em big and hairy. In any case, I've told her the day she finds someone who can afford to keep her in the style she has become accustemed to, she can piss off...

Actually, she is great, and loves cooking vension.

Brian.

quote:

Originally posted by 577NitroExpress:
Hell, for $1000 a share, count me in! I piss more money away each year buying s**t I don't need.

If we're going to use that rule, count me in for 5 shares!

Dave

Hey guys this idea sounds great but if your not a resident don't you have to hunt with a PH? Also on private land do you own the animals like cattle and harvest at will or do you need game tags? How exactly does it work?
Steve

A-Team

Someone would have to manage a property anyway.

Now if JudgeG retired, became a SAf PH and worked for free nyama it may just work.

If you guys are serious about this ranch thing, I have some race horses I can sell you too...

Forget the race horses, damn lawyers anyway. What you really need is to be in the metal fabricating business...

AR Guests

Dont panic ///

I will get you an update soon on the place and also a firm price and if possible a species list as well ....

Just out of interest -

With a lodge/client chalets, PH chalet, owners house and two outside rooms, and a managers house, I would say we can accommodate 20+ at any one time ( Man thats going to be a good night around the braai )

Someone mentioned race horses, if you want to bring the race horses along that is fine, there is a bush airstrip on the property so you can run the horses to keep them in shape.

WE can have WALTER as the local CLOWN and RAY JUDGEG as the OLD TIMERS bluegrass band

Maybe I can be local piss he.d, trouble maker bottle washer and cork remover, and FREE OBSERVER guest of cource

Maybe we can talk Steve (AKA Shakari) into being Ranch Manager and master of ceremonies, that is if he renounces his peerage and becomes one of us peasents

Peter

quote:

WE are not immune anywhere in the world from this type of thing, of cource Africa and SA is bad

I'd have to say bullshit to this. You ain't from Texas are you?

quote:

If you guys are serious about this ranch thing, I have some race horses I can sell you too...

I must disagree 500.
I think the Brooklyn Bridge may be a better investment. Bridges don't eat.

"Russian lady clients?"

Surely they were there just to take pictures, not shoot... right???

Russ

Peter,

I could never renounce my peerage? - I appreciate I don't use the title much but it's very useful for getting me a good seat whenever I fly. To say nothing of the fact it's hereditary and I want to be able to pass it on..... I make a pretty good Master of Ceremonies & Toastmaster though.

By the way, would we have to dress for dinner?

Hey....This sounds groovy...count me in for a couple of shares....hell depending on the per share valuation don't limit me to only a couple!

Hey if you realy want this thing sold contact me I am a commercial farm and ranch realtor and I may have a buyer for you.
Also i think the undivided intrest or shares in this kind of property is a great idea.

quote:

Originally posted by Russell E. Taylor:
"Russian lady clients?"

Surely they were there just to take pictures, not shoot... right???

Russ

Russ

Firstly from all I hear you are a credit to your country putting yourself in harms way for others and doing the hard yards so to speak ..

On a less serious note //

The Russian lady on the left in that picture is a hunter and she DID hunt as well as her husband, her daughter was the observer guest ...

WE also took them on a side trip to the very upmarket Londolozi Private Game Reserve exclusive safari destination situated in the Sabi Sand Game Reserve on the border of the Kruger National Park /// dont ask me the rates for Londolozi as it will bowl you over

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

Peter,

By the way, would we have to dress for dinner

YES that would be mandatory ///

Maybe the dress code could well be what WALTER WORE in the (2004 Tan Zan extravegansa) DVD wildlife production where he was seen to terrorise RAY

quote:

Originally posted by CRUSHER:
Hey if you realy want this thing sold contact me I am a commercial farm and ranch realtor and I may have a buyer for you.
Also i think the undivided intrest or shares in this kind of property is a great idea.

Crusher

I believe my brother will sell ///

He is just on a hunt @ his mountain ranch today and will be heading to Zambia later this week so I will pressure him for a FORMAL PRICE and an estimate of (existing animals) on the property as when I spoke to him a few days back he indicated he would only sell as a 100% going concern land/animals combined NOT land only.

Hang in there

Peter