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'Afternoon Gentlemen, I have a small problem in that I am going to South Africa in two and a half weeks time to hunt plains game with my 30.06. I had developed a load with 168 grain Barnes TSXs but subsequently discovered that I had been using bad data and was told by more than a few folk I trust not to use it. The problem is that due to one thing or another I have not been able to load up a few more rounds, let alone book some range time and I still don't have a new TSX load. I do however have an endless supply of 180 grain Hornady Interlock loaded cartridges, as well as 150 grain Speer BTSP rounds, that I hunt with over here. The question is will I be ok with the 180 grain Hornadys if I can't get the tsx sorted out in time or should I get a few boxes of factory ammunition loaded with TSXs? With thanks, A | ||
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I've taken 25 plus animals in africa with Federal Premium Ammo, I don't get all the hype about hand loads, if you can his a grapefruit at 150-250 yds, who cares if you loaded it yourself. My opinion would be go to the store, pick up some bonded bullets, and sight in the gun, and be done. | |||
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This question can only be answered with more info from your side. Where are you hunting? What are the species? What is the terrain & ranch size? What is the MV of your loads? African animals (plains game) die pretty well much the same as any other continents game. In fact because you are likely to be accompanied by a PH, a bunch of trackers etc. you are more likely to find your quarry if the shot is well placed than when hunting relatively self reliant such as in the USA or Europe. As a point on why the questions; I have just returned from a PG hunt in Botswana's southern Kalahari area. I used a .308 Norma Mag, 200gr Nosler Accubonds @ 2920fps. My 10yo son used a .308 Win 150gr PMP (Conventional) @ 2100fps (Reduced) I shot two Gemsbuck and recovered two bullets in the opposite skin (one at about 70m the other at about 110m). He shot a Blue Wildebeest and penetration was right through entering the shoulder and exiting just fore of the opposite shoulder (at 112m). This is again proof that killing power (penetration) is enhanced by reducing velocity and again, at reduced velocity conventional hunting bullets are adequate. The only need for additional velocity is to achieve "reach" (a flatter trajectory for long range shooting) and then, when heavy boned animals are encountered at close range, premium bullets are required to prevent bullet failure. At this same hunt a mate of mine loaded his .270Win with 150gr Nosler Ballistic Tips, This guy shoots well. I heard clearly a hit on a Gemsbuck which he shot at about 80m. There was not a sign of a hit and his tracker (of Nama origin) found no evidence after more than 1km on the spoor! Bullet failure? http://www.bigbore.org/ http://www.chasa.co.za Addicted to Recoil ! I hunt because I am human. Hunting is the expression of my humanity... | |||
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Stephen has it dead right..... and I've gotta say how nice it is to hear of a 308 Norma Magnum...... must be over 20 years since I saw one them but what a great calibre it is!  | |||
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308 norma  a thought has been planted I have an extra action  | |||
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I used a 30.06 and 180 grain Nosler partition reloads for plains game in Namibia. No problems at all. The reloads were chosen for acuracy rather than maximum velocity. Now, on larger animals, Zebra and Kudu I did use my 300WM but I suspect that the 30.06 would have worked just as well. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Funnily enough, I nearly suggested that to you the other day when we were discussing that action you mentioned. Funny how calibres fall in and out of fashion but the good old 308 Norma Mag just never seems to get discussed any more. | |||
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 the gun smith I work with was asking me what caliber to build that action to for you if you wanted something other that the one I mentioned before | |||
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Difficult mate... the one you mentioned previously is certainly very special indeed for the reasons we mentioned..... | |||
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This was the first proper outing for me with the Norma Mag. Throwing 200gr bonded .30 cal bullets at over 2900fps with sub MOA groups is a confidence booster! The main thing which I understand sets it above the 300 Win Mag is that it seems to work with all manner of fodder. I'm really looking forward to loading some variety in the off-season..... http://www.bigbore.org/ http://www.chasa.co.za Addicted to Recoil ! I hunt because I am human. Hunting is the expression of my humanity... | |||
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I've always felt the calibre never got the praise it truly deserved...... esp in recent years and esp in Africa. That said, it could be that I'm a bit biased because the guy who got me into African hunting was also a great fan of the calibre. Sorry to get off topic BTW. | |||
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What is the problem with the 168gr TSX? BigBullet "Half the FUN of the travel is the esthetic of LOSTNESS" Ray Bradbury https://www.facebook.com/Natal...443607135825/?ref=hl | |||
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I can vouch for the 308 norma mag. as well. Great calibre!! | |||
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I've gone to Africa with my 30-06. On my first safari I used 180 grain CoreLokts and afterwards Federal Premium 165 gr. BTSP. Quite frankly the results were the same and the rifle shoots them equally well. I've even shot different lots of the same ammunition and seen no difference on the range. Nothing personal but in this day hand loading is over rated as a hunting tool. If you can't find a factory load to work well with your gun, you have a gun or shooter problem not an ammunition problem. | |||
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I shot interbonds on my first safari to Zimbabwe. 300 Win Mag, 220 gr Interbond Round Nose, 2,800 fps. I recovered one bullet, from my Sable which was a quartering towards me shot. Here is a picture of that bullet.  I chose the interbond because it was the most accurate bullet for my rifle. Here is a picture of a 10 shot group.  Either option is fine. Having said all that, if you have any doubts, buy three factory boxes loaded with Barnes TSX or Swift A frames and go hunting. | |||
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Shoot the 180 grn interlocks in your 30-06. They will kill all that needs to be killing. The interlocks are a quality bullet and do what they are designed to do and 2750 fps is right in their performance envelope. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I used the federal premiums with the 180 grn swift a frames 3 years ago. Took Kudu, Gems, Black Wild, Impala and Wart with one shot kills from 50 to 250 yards. 3 recovered bullets were perfect mushrooms under the offside skin. | |||
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Thank you for the replies chaps and a special thank you to Steve for yet another fascinating insight into his burgeoning special relationship with DDRhook!  In answer to the questions I am hunting plains game up to the Wildebeest/Kudu in the northern provinces of South Africa. There are two main areas on the ranches, one open and one bush. The MV of the hornady load is just under 2700 fps or thereabouts, the muzzle velocity of the 168 tsx load is unknown but quickload predicts about 3000fps using the dodgy data, those rounds have been pulled. The TSXs were loaded to the wrong data and are suspected to be over-pressure by some way though not showing the conventional signs. 4-1 against, on the late. | |||
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If it were me on any guided hunt with lots of dollars involved, I would use the best of all equipment, including bullets which are pretty cheap in the grand scheme. Would I use an Interlock for the game you listed...sure I would, but I would prefer SAF, Partition or something along them lines. Thats why I voted for the premium factory loads. Can you share with us the load data from this "over-pressured" load? Rod -------------------------------- "A hunter should not choose the cal, cartridge, and bullet that will kill an animal when everything is right; rather, he should choose ones that will kill the most efficiently when everything goes wrong" Bob Hagel | |||
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Hi Rod, I certainly agree that it would be churlish to seek to economise on ammunition on a hunt like this. Sadly this is not the issue, that being the absence of a proven load for the tsxs, The data was 59 grains of H4350 in Norma brass with CCI LR primers at an OAL of 3.250". My rifle has a 22" barrel. I gather that this data is for a cup and core bullet and that the TSX data gives a maximum of 55.5 grains. The 59 grain load shows no pressure signs in my rifle apart from unusual recoil. This was the thread I posted about it a few months ago. http://forums.accuratereloadin...131013331#6131013331 Thanks for your help. A | |||
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I would buy some Federal ammunition loaded with Partitions, Bear Claws or Accubonds. I don't like TSX bullets on smaller game. I have had poor expansion on deer with the TSX bullets. I have mostly in the past used 180 Bear Claws in a 300 Win for plains game with great success. | |||
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Mate, I'd go for the 180 grain Hornadys if you already have a load for them and are happy with their performance in the UK.... but if you want to try something new, why don't you call Aftab at Reloading Solutions and have him send you some A Frames? They'll do everything you want and he should have them on the shelf. | |||
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I think they'll do fine, unless the African antelope have significantly denser muscles and bones than our species, but it always pays to ask just in case. Assumption being the mother and all that... I did in fact buy these TSXs at Aftab's, just to shock our American readers at the very competitive price of $85 per 50, after having looked at the A-frames, TBBCs and a few others. The Greek gentleman shoots TSXs for the fallow all the time here and more than a few seem to have had good experiences with them. Unfortunately if I bought the A-frames I would still be in the rather invidious position of not having a load for them. Out of interest do you rate the a-frames over the TSXs? | |||
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Mate they're both good but I guess I'd say the A Frame is a bit more versatile.... I don't know how they do it but they seem to be one of the very few bullets that work really well on everything from leopard to buffalo. All that said, your Hornadys will do the job well enough and as you already have a load worked out fo them that suits your rifle, it'd probably be better to stick to the KISS principle and stick with them. Don't know how you're getting to your hunting area but if you plan to pass through White River, let me know and I'll buy you a beer as you pass through. (If I'm around!)  | |||
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That sounds like a fine idea Steve, I'll find out where we'll be and drop you a line mate. | |||
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Never had the problem. Jim "Bwana Umfundi" NRA | |||
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Amir. I have taken a few roe and red with the 180 grn Hornady Interlock/ 30-06 combo back when I used that caliber. Usually no problems at all and exellent accuracy. They tend to spit the lead core around a bit hitting bone, but that seems to increase the internal bleeding. In the 30-06, and with the game you are planning to take, I would have no problems using them. Whish you a great trip mate, and look forward to your report Will you take the Fallkniven Hunter with you or have you already mislaid it somewhere under a bush or in a grassy field or in a larder or car or ... ? Arild Iversen. | |||
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Hi Ghubert Coming in somewhat late to this thread, but you absolutlely can not go wrong with Hornady ammunition these days. They have really poured the time and effort into making great bullets that shoot straight and perform after impact. I was in So Africa in April and took a 300WM with Superformance 165g Interbond ammo. Kudu, Blesbok, Impala and 2 Wildebeest were taken with my rifle. My Impala was shot at about 35 yards and my Wildebeest was shot at 350-450yds (They are TOUGH!). Superformance will give you higher velocity, but the regular loading use the same great bullets. Buy a few boxes, zero your rifle and concentrate on the hunting! Mike Michael Voigt | |||
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Buy a few different kinds of ammo. Shoot a couple groups with each. Hunt with which ever shoots the straightest. I normally hunt with reloaded ammo also but a few times have used factory loaded ammo. Although I prefer reloads just to be able to hunt with my own loads. The few animals I have killed with factory loads have died just as dead as the ones I killed with my own loads "Science only goes so far then God takes over." | |||
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Struggling.....to....remain....polite.....   Thanks Jim, I do understand what you are getting at, the 7 "P's" and all that. | |||
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As ever thank you Arlid for your kind advice and I'll keep you updated as we go. That Fallkniven hunter will be going to my grave with me, I have come up with three different ways of tying it about and to my person. I think you've just given me an idea for a travelling knife documentary series... Thanking you I remain, Yours, A | |||
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...............  Well Jerad you might ought to start "getting it" because when you get that new 500NE double rifle, you will not be buying ammo at that local Wall-Mart, I assure you! There are two very good reasons for handloading, Notice I didn't say "re-loading". The #1 reason for handloading is to get the ammo that best shoots in your rifle, alnog with the premium bullet of your CHOICE. This is even more valuable where a double rifle is concerned. It is rare for a double rifle to regulate as well as it can, with factory ammo. Sure it will put all the shots on a grapefruit at 50 yds, but may not shoot through a hole in the bush at 25 yds without hitting a limb, or close enough to hit the vitals of a wounded buffalo at 150 yds. The #2 reason is the price of factory ammo that may or may not shoot well in your rifle, at the tune of $1700.oo dollars per 100 rounds. With a 470NE Federal factory is $17.oo dollars per shot, and the 500NE is higher, and not always available when you need it. The key is to buy 120 pieces of new brass, use 20 pieces to work up the best regulating load you can find, shooting and reloading the same 20 pieces of brass till you get the load you need. Then load the other 100 pieces of NEW brass with that exact load, and stash. Now you have 100 rounds for hunting, that you know will do what you want, and 20 pieces to use for the local HOOT-N-SHOOTs or practice loads, and for hog shooting. All this at about half what you would buy from the factory, and better ammo as well. Asside from the financial reasons, and having better ammo, the hand loading is fun, and is simply part of the complete rifleman's package! .............Good luck in Namibia! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Jarrod, Relax! Mac's post is directed at Oryxhunter who at his young age has not yet figured out that he does not know everything that is necessary to know about everything. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Im perfectly relaxed lol "Science only goes so far then God takes over." | |||
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And if it's west from Joburg you're heading I'll offer you the same hospitality on your way out that Steve has! I totally agrre with Steve's advice about KISS so I'd say if you cannot get a premium tried & tested by the time of the hunt then go with the Interlocks. A-Frames are absolutely my personal favorite hunting bullet, and if you have time before departing for your hunt you can try the local brew; PMP African Elite loaded with A-Frames. If you arrangements allow you to spend a bit of time 50km west of Joburg I will arrange for a local dealer to have stock and you can try them at my place. I have a bench at 100m & 200m on my plot near Randfontein. http://www.bigbore.org/ http://www.chasa.co.za Addicted to Recoil ! I hunt because I am human. Hunting is the expression of my humanity... | |||
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The data was 59 grains of H4350 in Norma brass with CCI LR primers at an OAL of 3.250". My rifle has a 22" barrel. I gather that this data is for a cup and core bullet and that the TSX data gives a maximum of 55.5 grains. The 59 grain load shows no pressure signs in my rifle apart from unusual recoil. Your data is right on in most rifles amd would not be considered an high pressure load. The Barmes TSX in my experience do not give higher pressures then "normal" bullets. Barnes X bullets did in fact give higher pressures for similar charge weights due to thier longer bearing surface. I my 06, I shoot 61.5 grain of Relaoder 19 @ 2965fps and I have used this load on plain game. It worked perfectly. Also, I have also loaded H4350 to 58grains and recieved 2800 fps, but the accuracy wasn't as good as the Reloader 19, soI stopped at that point, there are no notes in my log concerning high pressures which would have been noted if they occurred. Enjoy your hunt, and if you can't get this all settled for yourself, buy the Federal premiums and go hunting. Enjoy your hunt, John BigBullet "Half the FUN of the travel is the esthetic of LOSTNESS" Ray Bradbury https://www.facebook.com/Natal...443607135825/?ref=hl | |||
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Mark you are correct Oryxhunter1983's name is Jerad, not "JARROD"! Jerad is a very nice kid of 26 years of age, and is already on his fourth safari. Sorry Jarrod if my post confused you! I really doubt it did, however. He drove about 200 miles just to shoot a couple of my double rifles. He shot a 9.3X74, and a 470NE off hand no rest or sticks at 50 yards puting all the bullets into the bull after he found the rifle wasn't going to tear his head off. He shot about ten rounds out of each of the two doubles after he relaxed all off hand. He is left handed and was worried that he would not be able to shoot a right handed double rifle. As it turned out he took to the double rifle concept like a pro, after he fired a few shots to get over his concern with the recoil. He learns fast, and listens to instruction well. The rifle he is buying is a right hand Merkel 140-2.1, 500NE, and I told him that the 500NE was going to be a bit brisk in the Merkel, because they are actually one pound lighter than the 470NE Merkel, but that it will not kill him either. However I'm charged with the teaching him to handload for the double rifle. ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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I think my post was taken wrong from the beginning. But I did not mean it as being a smart ass. That is why I had the smiley face at the end of it. It was just in fun. Sounds like Jerad is a fast learner. He is not much younger than I am. I am only 31. I have never shot a double except for a double shotgun. I do say I would love to shoot a double rifle. I just deleted the post so that people wouldn't take it the wrong way "Science only goes so far then God takes over." | |||
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Jarrod, there was no need to delete a post here! You offended nobody, and besides your opinions are a valid as the next guy's. ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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