Chic-

Sounds like another Todd E name going on. I think he's signed up for another name???

Chigger:
Saeed convinced me to go with the 375 H&H, for a bunch of reasons. He likes a little extra, maybe 200 fps, but doesn't use it all the time,IIRC.

I think that the extra 200 fps probably hurts the buffalo a bit, making them less likely to charge, but you'd have to get his opinion on that. Also, for long shots, it must be nice to carry about 5-6 rounds for flat long range shooting, perhaps with a lighter bullet, and have effectively a 300 win mag, with a bigger, heavier bullet, and better down range ballistics.

It's not like Saeed is a bad shot or anything.

Have a look at his shot dropping a duiker, running away, at about 300 yards. I can barely see the little guy in the video...

Sides, I suspect Saeed is secure enough to take a mild dig at his rifle.

Dr. S

I can't believe this argument is still going! The laws of physics and math are NOT suspended...even by using matchkings.

I grew up hunting jackrabbits in New Mexico. I was too "poor" to shoot a .22 so my first gun was a 30/06 and I had to reload my own shells from all the powder and bullets my older brother foolishly left behind when he went to college.

Sometimes I would shoot and hit a rabbit in the head and he would go STRAIGHT UP in the air about three feet. SOMETIMES I've even seen brainshot jackrabbits jump up and down like this two or three times!!!! I've even seen little cottontail rabbits do this trick when someone hit them in the noggin with a .22.

But NEVER have I seen a jackrabbit KNOCKED BACKWARDS by the impact from anything. The BEST anyone could ever achieve was knocking them over. And I've seen them hit with everything from a .458 American on down. I once shot a charging (disoriented) skunk with my .458 American HEAD ON at a range of probably a dozen yards. Bullet was 400 gr. Skunk was mayby two pounds. Did it knock him backwards. Nope. But thank goodness it did stop the "charge."

The Hollywood scene where the bad guy is lifted off his feet and "blown backwards" thru the plate glass window all from the impact of a .357 magnum or whatever is pure BS and staged strictly for the amusement of the ignorant masses.

In fact, I can think of one example where you can witness a dramatic physical reaction WITHOUT ANY IMPACT WITH ANYTHING!

Jump out at your wife and shout "BOO" sometime when she doesn't even know you are in the house.
Silently drop a large book beside a sleeping dog or cat. Both situations there is no impact but you can witness dramatic physical reaction.

Why is it so difficult to imagine this from a frightened or tense animal who knows danger is near?

Man is such a totally "sight oriented creature" that he normally believes WHATEVER he sees, (or thinks he sees) regardless of how false or misleading it may be and regardless of how factually impossible the event may be proven.

Since you morons cannot leave my name still! This question, mathematically, is FAR BEYOND YOU PATHETIC EDUCATIONAL LEVEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AN ANIMAL COULD BE KNOCKED DOWM, THEN AGAIN I CAN GENERATE A MODEL, WHICH WILL PROVE AN ANIMAL "CANNOT" BE KNOCKED DOWN!!!!!!!!

Like I said it is over 99.99% OVER YOUR HEADS!!!!!!!!!

I suggest you MORONS jusst drop it, and be happy if the animal drops "dead" at the shot!!!!!

POSeur

[ 12-28-2002, 08:34: Message edited by: POSeur ]

Mickey-

Yes its really all quite old. It was funny the first 5 times, but now that were on what, numero 10 its time Saeed did something if he wants his site to be anything worthile in a year..

Buell

Buell98.

I must agree! If one does not understand 8th grade Physics by now they never will!!!!!! Hopefully, Saeed will end this ignorant BS!

POSeur

jeffeosso....

Troll, writing to himself...

No bullet, from a conventional hunting caliber, can knock a large animal backward. I’ve seen numerous instances where it “appeared” that the animal what hit so hard that it was knocked backwards. I had a very personal experience that convinced me that it is not the bullet that knock the animal backwards, but the animals reaction to being shot that made it look as if the animal was knocked backwards.

I received a “chest shot” from a .308 at approximately 1 yard, while being protected by “a bullet proof device”. I don’t want to go into the circumstances that led to the incident, as it was largely the result of youthful stupidity – and no, it was not an accidental discharge, but a deliberately fired shot by someone else. Enough said about the circumstances, let’s get down to the effect that the shot had on me.

The effect was minimal. I was facing the shooter, with my feet about 18” apart. The impact of the bullet might have moved my upper body maybe an inch or two, but definitely not enough to throw my off balance, and a far cry from knocking me backward.

I know one incident is not enough to draw a scientific conclusion from, but I guess the “personal nature” of this incident made a lasting impression on me. My subsequent exposure to shootouts as a police officer, confirmed my belief that a bullet from a conventional hunting caliber can’t knock a adult backward, or down, or what ever, much less a big game animal.

Sorry for the dubble post!

[ 12-28-2002, 12:09: Message edited by: Riaan ]

Riaan describes exactly what I have witnessed. If we want to get into personal examples, I can shed a little light on what it felt like to take a .22 bullet thru 11" of thigh muscle.

No great energy available from .22 admittedly, but enough to support the point, I think. Did I feel any "impact or blow" when the bullet hit?
Nope. Felt like someone slapped me on the leg and beyond that the burning and aching sensation of the slug now residing within my sweet young flesh.

Perhaps a better personal example was the day I took a richochet from 30/06 in the face. This time I was NERVOUS about the shot and actually WORRIED the bullet might richochet off the steel me and another nut were shooting. As soon as the shot was fired I felt the "slap" again, only this time in the face. In what seemed the same instant I spun 180' and to any of you who might have witnessed the incident, you would say I was KNOCKED to my knees.

Pretty impressive "knockdown power" from the richochet.........except that wasn't what happened. What the bullet (which I believe was actually the bullet JACKET blowing back from the steel) really did to me is smack me in the face and slit my nose wide open with the sharp edge.

The 180' spin and "knockdown" to my knees was STRICTLY SUPPLIED BY MY NERVES. My being nervous about the shot had my muscles and nervous system cocked and ready to go off. The little smack in the face with the bullet jacket simply provided the stimulous to set it in motion.

The event LOOKED dramatic! My nose was gushing blood. I was on my knees and THOUGHT I was dead or at least had a .30 caliber hole thru my head. But lucky for me, it wasn't the case. In fact the impact with the bullet jacket gave me a nasty cut but didn't even apply enough of a blow to bruise me.

Conversely the .22 bullet was a complete surprise and I did nothing but look down at my leg in disbelief. Had to see the blood running down my jeans to believe it!

Any of this sound familiar and compare to animal reactions? Animals flipping over backwards or seeming to be "blown" off course? OR animals simply falling down dead?

Bullets d-o-n-'t knock animals down.

Anyone else been shot and want to rethink what happened and why to this silly issue?

(Anyone still clinging to the notion bullets blow things off their feet, knock them backwards, etc will likely never be convinced. Classic example of "My mind is made up...don't confuse me with the facts.)

[ 12-28-2002, 13:00: Message edited by: Pecos45 ]

What about those non lethal bean bag things that police have not. I've seen footage of these thing knocking drugged up & agressive dope heads backwards off their feet. Could greater mass striking the target at a lower velocity be the answer in this application?

I know of a guy that was hit several times with the bean bags, and he didn't go down till the SWAT cop tackled him. This guy was high as a kite and didn't have normal nervous reaction to the thumping.

Bill,
you've got a PM!
jeffe

Aside from the personal sniping, this is an interesting thread and has caused me to re-evaluate some past events. Maybe I can reconcile the laws of physics with what many of us have seen with our own eyes.

EXAMPLE#1
I once shot a buck in the neck as it was coming up a steep creek bank.He was walking directly towards me. The bullet impact seemingly knocked him completely over on his back. This was over iron sights so I was able to see it all clearly.

Now, if you've ever rocked back in a kitchen chair to the balance point (like your mom said not to)you know there is a fine line between balancing and going over backwards. I submit that my buck was near that balance point and that my round lodging in his neck bones merely pushed him over the edge.It didn't take much energy to do that and all the energy available was transferred to the deer's neck as the bullet did not exit. If he had been firmly on all four legs on level ground he would have gone down but not flipped over.
EXAMPLE # 2
I shot a small doe in the shoulder blade with my bow and arrow.The arrow stopped in the shoulder blade and she went down hard. Now, the force was directed so that she was on her narrow axis and didn't need much force to push her over.Her four feet were pretty much in line, deer being perfect trackers(meaning they put their hind feet in the front feet track also added to the lack of force needed to upset her balance. Lots of other game animals are perfect trackers also. All of them have one other thing in common: a high center of gravity. Couple the high center of gravity with the narrow base and you can see that in certain circumstances it doesn't require much force to tip one over.I think that that's the key to this debate.

We aren't knocking them down as much as tipping them over.

In earlier posts it was suggested to shoot into a section of a tree trunk for a demonstration of the lack of transferable energy. I submit that if you balance that log on a 2x12 board on it's narrow edge,that you will indeed knock it over.

To add to the side shot thought, if the bullet enters behind the near shoulder and clips the opposing shoulder and leg then all support for the far side goes away and that enhances the tipping over action.
Mull it over and let me know what you think. Sorry I got so long winded.

Russ - Good thoughtful comments and I agree with your "balance point theory." I would add also my belief that animals generally have better/faster reaction times to people. I think their accellerated reaction times can produce some of this notion that they were "stopped dead" in their charge or even a buffalo being "knocked backwards." IMHO what is actually happening is nothing more than the natural reaction to recoil from a blow or a pain. If someone is slapped in the face, all or at least PART of their body will recoil BACK from the source of the blow. This "recoil reaction" has little to do with the actual FORCE of the blow. I think any buffalo that is "knocked backwards" is simply reacting to the blow/pain of the bullet. To say that the bullet KNOCKS the buffalo backwards makes one wonder why a 6 ozs bird flying into the windshield of a car doesn't knock the car backwards? Could it be the car doesn't have a nervous system to react to the blow? I think so. I once hit a BUZZARD in a little Mazda pick-up I was driving merrily along at 70 mph. Sure made a thump but it didn't KNOCK my little truck anywhere.

Forget shooting trees, barrels of sand, etc.

Next time you shoot an animal and it "flies backwards", take another shot at it once it returns to earth. What happens when you hit that same animal, now dead and with no working nervous system, with the same round? Nothing. It's not gonna move.

Customstox...not arguing with your quite valid point..but I still think unpredictable reactions can occur with any energy equations, we don't live in a laboratory or vacuum. As a great believer in Newtons laws I think a quick visit to Saeed's videos of adult males being knocked backwards by 577 T-rex's and 700 nitro's shows that a larger mass can be overcome by supposedly lesser energy.

Cold Bore.. all thats true but prop it back up on it's feet and you might get at least some reaction..lying dead and flat on the ground it's really no more than a bag of sand!

ColdBore.. all thats true but prop it back up on it's feet and you might get at least some reaction..lying dead flat on the ground it's really no more than a bag of sand!

Damn ...there's another one of those pesky equal and opposite reactions!!

Pecos45-Thanks and I would agree that reaction speed in some animals are superior to ours and can give the illusion of a forceful bullet thump.

I wonder how much the alertness of the animal affects the equation?
You've heard stories of a feeding moose shot from a long distance continuing to feed until it fell over dead and of a whitetail on the alert "jumping the string" and having the arrow pass over it's back as it coiled to spring away.

I have hit whitetails with my 338 Win mag using 160gr Barnes X bullets at high velocity and I have thrown them. No meat left, but I have done it. Whether it's the impact, reaction, or combination of whatever........IT HAPPENS. Until you do it, see it, or experience it, you will not beleive it.
All you physics people out there....

Why do bumble bees fly?
Their bodies are too big for the surface area of the wings. And the wings don't beat fast enough to over come the small wing span. This has been studied for years! Just because it doesn't add up with your figures, formulas, and calculators, doesn't mean it can't happen.

Why do bumble bees fly....my answer...
No one ever told them they couldn't!!!!!!

This is so embarrassing!

If you think animals can't be knocked backwards, you had better sell your pool table and balls because it doesn't work trying to shoot one ball with another.

Eveything gets knocked backwards, so to speak, but imperceptably in most cases.

The energy from the bullet is most expended in tearing up stuff, as in Saeed example, and hence appears not to be knocked backwards.

Throwing a tennis ball head on at a freight train will slow the train down, momentarily. Just because it is not noticable doesn't mean the train doesn't slow down.

Give it up.

Will

[ 12-29-2002, 17:58: Message edited by: Will ]