I found this 300 Gr. Swift A-Frame flattened on the shoulder blade of a Nile Buffalo. It was fired at very close range from a .375 Remington Ultra Mag @ app. 2,760 fps. No penetration. Too much velocity?

Rich Elliott

Looks like it Rich.

With copper bullets, like the Barnes X and our own Walterhogs, I found that best penetration is achieved at about this velocity.

When fired at a muzzle velocity of 3140 fps, they did not penetrate as far.

Also, I have found I can control the penetration by changing the diametr and depth of the hollow point.

We had bullets that would penetrate a bull from his rear end to be lodged in the neck!

They would always exit on any shot except full length.

So we increased the dept of the hollow point.

Those are the ones I hunt with in Tanzania now.

They would exit on broadside shots, but will not on quartering or lengthways.

If the bullet goes through a small branch before hitting the buffalo, it will open up and have poor penetration.

Could that have been the case? That it had expanded before hitting the Buffalo?

What about a thich coat of mud on the Buffalo?

Just thinking out load on why a premium bullet would preform this way.

I had one totally shatter on a impala a few years ago. I couldn't believe it.

I think that even the best bullets can have the occasional bad one in a lot.

I had similar results with a 400gr Swift shot from a 416 Rigby at 2400. Buff shoulder bones are tough! I still have (what is left of) the bullet.

BYW, that bullet broke the near shoulder, ripped a huge hole in the heart and came to a rest on the off side just under the skin.

I really don't consider that a bullet failure.

Had it not hit the shoulder I would consider it a failure.

Brett

I would say too much velocity or you had some brush or something that got to it before the shoulder bone. My son shot his buff at 60 yds 300 grain Swift a-frame downloaded to 2450fps it broke the near shoulder, through a rib, heart, rib and bullet was under the far skin still retaining 92% of bullet weight.

That is bizarre. No buffalo bone should be able to stop a Swift A-Frame.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
That is bizarre. No buffalo bone should be able to stop a Swift A-Frame.

Maybe the buffalo didnt know that?

quote:

That is bizarre. No buffalo bone should be able to stop a Swift A-Frame.

MR, I have seen A-Frame failures on buffalo, gemsbok, kudu, and eland. Just goes to show you that all bullets can fail...
They remain my no. 1 choice for 9.3 and below, (TSX for .375 and up.)

A buffalo is a terrible thing to do to a bullet. Buffalo spines are no cakewalks either.

About 14 years ago I shot a lion on the point of the shoulder with a .416 Wby (mauser action, not Wby!). Swift A frames at about 2700fps. The lion took off and we had a short followup. On autopsy the lion's shoulder was shattered to absolute gravel but the bullet didn't penetrate the ribcage. We found the bullet under the skin diagnally behind the opposite leg. The bullet looked beautiful--like an advertisement, but had careened, traveled under the skin over the lion clear to the opposite side. Incredible.

For high velocities I use X-bullets or GS, not A-frames.

To much veeeeeeeeelocity

Karl - I also prefer the TSX (or the very similar Hirtenberger ABC or North Fork) in a big bore. I like a long, monolithic shank for deep penetration.

But I am at a loss as to how to explain this kind of failure in an A-Frame - which let's face it is a very strong, thickly partitioned, bonded core bullet.

Too much velocity??? Too soft an alloy??? Intervening obstacles??? Poor stabilization??? This is a tough one.

Karl - what do you think caused the A-Frame failures that you have seen?

I had just the opposite experience with a .375 H&H. MV was 2520 or therabouts. At approx. 75 yards, a 300 grain A Frame penetrated and shattered the buff's right shoulder, through the lungs and heart and both ribcages, ending up under the offside skin. Perfect mushroom and weighed 292 grains, and I weighed it twice, just to be sure.

I've also had several other one shot kills using the 160 grain bullet on plains game from wart hog to kudu and gemsbok from a 7mm Rem mag at ranges exceeding 300 yds.

I guess any bullet will fail, but I'm going to use them on buff in July, and on everything else as well.

Forgot to mention that the A Frame is the most accurate bullet in both rifles, also.

Rich, did the rear lead core come out of the base of the bullet?

I suspect the bullet had a defect in the front portion of the jacket.(too thin, too soft, etc.)
Reason: those from my .378WM have not failed to penetrate.
( Also, it has been to this point the most accurate bullet in my particular rifle.)

quote:

Originally posted by reddy375:
To much veeeeeeeeelocity

IMHO, For a swift, 2100 to 2500 to minimize erratic opening.

500gr a-frame rules

Rich: The bullet was defective or it deflected off something prior to impacting the buff. Unless the animal had a steel plate in its shoulder, it's almost impossible for bone and body tissues to stop it or flatten it as such.
Moja

quote:

Originally posted by SableTrail:
Rich: The bullet was defective or it deflected off something prior to impacting the buff. Unless the animal had a steel plate in its shoulder, it's almost impossible for bone and body tissues to stop it or flatten it as such.
Moja

I agree with Bwana Moja and Mrlexma on this one. You'd need a steel plate to do that to a normal A-frame.

I would say too much of a good thing (velocity)

I recovered the 300grn swift A-Frame from the off-side shoulder under the hide from the Bull Buffalo my wife shot at 12yds. (yes it was exciting!) went through both shoulders @ 2600fps and is picture perfect mushroom you could ask for..

I was thinking a .510 caliber 600g Woodleigh PP at 2150fps would be fine, but now I'm thinking solid ...



Chuck

With due respect to MR, Mark and others buff shoulder bones can be pretty tough on Swift A-Frames. The bullet below was recovered from a buff I shot in the Selous. As I mentioned above it broke the on side shoulder, made a big hole in the heart and I believe hit a rib on the far side causing the lead core to squirt out the open rear of the bullet. The recovered fragments weigh 157gr. The original 416 bullet weighed 400gr.

There were no trees or even bushes between the buffalo and I at the time of the shot. It was in burnt grass near a water hole.

P.S. The buff took about three steps and fell on his nose.

Brett


[IMG:left] [/IMG]

I still think Swifts are one of the best bullets out there.

Gentlemen,

At one stage or another, a bullet will not perform as it was supposed to.

I have seen this sort of thing with every bullet we have used.

A few years ago, we followed a herd of buffalo in Tanzania. When we caught up with them, I shot one right on the shoulder joint, using our own Walterhog bullets - for those who do not know these, they are lathe turned from copper rod, and have a hollow point, 300 grains, 375 caliber.

The bull started hobbling for a few yards, and I shot him again in the head.

We found that the bullet disentegrated completely, smashing the shoulder joint to mush.

There was no bones left at all. It felt like one was feeling sand and blood.

quote:

Rich, did the rear lead core come out of the base of the bullet?

No the lead core is still in the shaft, if you will.
I can't answer the deflection question.
I'm thinking the bullet is likely designed for 2,500 fps and 2,700 fps plus is a bit too much.
Rich Elliott

I have recovered 480 Woodleigh Softs and 500 Swift A Frames from eland and cape buff from my 450 No2.

Both bullets expanded to about the same amount in both cases.

I was suprised how much the Swift expanded at double rifle velocities.

Rich you may be correct 2700 fps is probably a bit much.

I have never lost the rear core of a Swift recovered from an animal, but some of the ones I dug out of the ground after a practice session, that hit rocks did loose the rear core.

quote:

Rich you may be correct 2700 fps is probably a bit much.

Big Green doesn't seem to think so.

Rich Elliott

I suspect the discussion went something like this...

Swift: Our A-Frame is only designed for a max impact of 2500 fps. We can design a tougher one for the RUM.

Remington: How much will that run?

Swift: Well...R&D...new tooling...another unit to fit into the production schedule...another SKU to inventory...

Remington: Oh never mind, I'm sure these will be fine. This isn't life or death after all...


I still like them...as long as I'm using them inside their design envelope.

As far as I can tell from Swift's promotional material, they place no velocity limit on their bullets.

Swift

See in particular the photo of the bullet expanded with an impact speed of 2,650 fps. Not flattened.

I am not one who naively believes in advertised claims. But the Swift bullet is hell for stout.

This kind of bullet behavior is truly weird. There must have been some kind of flaw in that particular bullet or batch of bullets, or something else left out of the equation.

quote:

I found this 300 Gr. Swift A-Frame flattened on the shoulder blade of a Nile Buffalo. It was fired at very close range from a .375 Remington Ultra Mag @ app. 2,760 fps. No penetration. Too much velocity?

Rich Elliott

Rich,

The velocity is indeed too high at point-blank range. At that high an impact velocity you will have over expansion, which then causes shallower penetration. In addition weight loss is more severe at higher velocity and deminishes the terminal momentum that aids penetration.

Expansion of frontal diameter (XSA) is the single most inhibiting factor for penetration by far, and then mass of the bullet runs a second. When both variables are negative, ie when over-expansion & significant weight loss is present, it will exacerbate the situation and shallow penetration is inevitable.

Down load and you will see a huge difference in bullet performance.
There is no compelling reason to go over 2400 fps.

Warrior

I shot a number of Gemsbok last year with my 338RUM and 225 A-Frames........every shot exited, velocity was just over 3000fps......

Not a Buff obviously, but the bullets perfromed well, even at that high velocity......one bull was only 40 yards away when he took the hit......through both shoulders.

Best performance by far however, was from the Lapua Naturalis 231grain monometal........wish they made them in weights above 9.3mm

Warrior

I blew one of these up on the shoulder of a warthog in 2000. My PH took them away and had no desire (nor did I) to see their effect on buffalo.

Jeff

What's the best bullet for a non-ele DG hunt with the 375 Weatherby?

Else, would you just take a 400 gr. 416 rem. mag instead?

I have shot a pile of DG with the Swift A-Frames and never had a problem . They are my go to bullets.

I think some of the bullet issues are caused by excessive speed. I only shoot factory loads so I do not have that issue to concern myself with.

By the way, I mostly shoot a 416 Remington magnum.

quote:

Originally posted by Hunter54:
What's the best bullet for a non-ele DG hunt with the 375 Weatherby?

Else, would you just take a 400 gr. 416 rem. mag instead?

You went to a 7 year old post to ask that?

I like the 300 grain TSX for my 375 H&H

Too fast and too close is the culprit, a bad combo if ever there was one..

Actually its neither common or uncommon, it just happens now and then..over expansion stops penetration..I have said this many times, slow the bullet down for reliable results.

It,s a great bullet, slow it down to 2400-2500 FPS and it will never do that again..

On the biggest bull Ive ever killed had a 375 Swift 300 gr. perfectly expanded and encased in a ball of scar tissue under his off side skin. That bullet had passed thru one lung that had completely healed.. In effect it looked like a 3 lung bull, one big lung and two small lungs with a partition between them..He was fat and healthy as could be and mouthed him at about 112 to 14 years old my best guess. Wound was probably 4 or 5 years old...Tell me they ain't tough.

On a high velocity big magnum, Id opt for a heavy monolithic such as the 300 gr. North Fork or Barnes, backed with solids..

For a standard 375 I really like the 350 gr. Woodleigh PP, and backed with solids.

The Swift A-Frame is one of my favorites. Never shot a 300 grain. But 400 grains at about 2450 fps have performed flawlessly and consistently. Every recovered bullet looks just about the same, perfectly mushroomed and retaining over 90% of its weight. This includes multiple buffalo and one eland. Of course most bullets on smaller game were lost.