/

The original premise of the double rifle was to deliver a large caliber bullet at low pressure in tropical heat, with flanged case to insure extraction. The only problem I think that has been discussed here other than the lack of a rim is the high pressure rounds in the inherantly weak double rifle action.

I am one of those who without reserve beleive that if you are going to have a double rifle it ought to shoot a flanged cartridge.

The double rifle doesn't need a high pressure round to drive a bullet for long range. It's just a short range tool!

I have oft said that there is no good reason to have a double rifle, when a modern bolt action will drive a bullet faster and further and with greater accuracy. I just love the way they point and shoot! I guess that's why I love my shoot my double every chance I get.

So if we are choosing up sides, put me on the flanged column! It's the way God and Westley Richards, Rigby and Holland & Holland intended it to be!

If you are spending your money for a double rifle, then get what you want. That's what you will do anyway, Alf! As a firearms historian how do you think a double rifle should be chambered?

Rusty
We band of brothers!

I don't know who invented the extraction system for rimless cartridges in double rifles, but I believe it was Westley Richards who was the first to seriously promote doubles chambered for them, usually their own proprietary rimless shells (.318, .425, etc.). By some accounts, these were successful.

The rimless double I had the most experience with was a Westley Richards boxlock ejector in 9.3 X 62 rimless. It was a magic wand, until you wanted to shoot it. Reliability of extraction/ejection was unacceptable by ANY standard.

Rusty is absolutely correct. Having a double rifle chambered for a rimless cartridge is like ordering a new Ferrari with a 55mph governor and a trailer hitch. What a tragedy to spend so much money for such an abortion.

I have to partially agree and disagree

Yes, the original premise of a double was to have sure-fire extraction no matter what happened - so the use of the rimmed shell. However, most of the rimless doubles are smaller calibers - like the 318 - which are less likely to head seperation.

However, the rimless shells are quite good in doubles. I have yet to have pulled a rim off (the only time I have ever seperated a case was test firing a rifle, and it seperated the rim on a 500 3 1/4 case. The rim only partiall came off, though). Due to modern technoilogy and the ability to build brass with better qualities, has allowed us to ensure that a case seperation is nearly impossible (if proper charges are used).

One of the most requested rifles we get is a .318 WR in a double (which is a rimless case for those that don't know). We also make quite a few new guns in rimless cases. As a matter of fact, we curently have a .458 Win Droplock in stock, and have a .250 Savage Boxlock on it's way in - both Westleys.

From my little research done in older catalogues and here-say, I do beleive that we were the first company to actually promote rimless cases in a double. We were able to develope an extractor/ ejection system that sees extremely few failures or even problems. Our design has also been implememted by many other companies as well.

Granted, most of our doubles ordered are .470, 500, and other rimmed cases, there are still quite a few people out there looking for such good calibers like the .318 in a double.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rusty:
The original premise of the double rifle was to deliver a large caliber bullet at low pressure in tropical heat, with flanged case to insure extraction. The only problem I think that has been discussed here other than the lack of a rim is the high pressure rounds in the inherantly weak double rifle action.
QUOTE]

A rimless cartridge is a higher pressure cartridge. It also has a smaller diameter rim than it's rimmed counterpart and thus puts more pressure in a smaller area. This raises the given amount of pressure even more. Sort of like a bulldozer track compared to a tire track, less surface more pressure.

You also need to have those little pop-up ears to engage the rim. Trusting those and the spring that pushes them (a spring the size of a piece of food stuck between your teeth)is not a good idea for a reliable rifle.

At the Holland and Holland Shoot a couple of years ago, David Winks(the Director of H&H) said that the only reason that they built a rimless Double was because os the demand by some of their customers. He felt it was not a good idea but the business called for it. I suspect that Simon Clode and Paul Roberts would say the same if asked.

Now if Westly Richards made a 500/416 3 1/4 flanged, that my friend would be the ticket. I think I would be in the buying line!
Vince

LARRY
What do you think about that? Is it in Westley Richards' doable column?
Vince

I have a friend with a pair of Westley Richards doubles, a .416 Rigby and a .450#2. He reports having fired thousands of rounds through the .416 without any problems.

He has told me the biggest problem is paying for the ammo when he orders it from WR. He has the bill sent to his accountant so he does not see it.

jim dodd

I know that WR are excellant examples of the gunmakers art but I can't imagine any of them that have fired thousands of rounds of any cartridge without an overhaul.

Perhaps Larry at WR knows how many rounds a double should fire before loosening up and needing a tuneup.

I have also seen doubles in .416 Remington

However I am into classic nostalgic things with hunting so I would only want a double in a NE cartridge, likely 500NE. Just me though. It seems the two go hand in hand. I have never gotten over 30-30 bolt actions though, either.

I think as WR pointed out they can be made to function quite well, just as well, in rimmed and rimless varieties.

I guess it all boils down to the buyer, like HH believes, and that is ultimately the deciding factor, that is until some chap with a 416 Rigby double gets his arse smashed into a flapjack.

Buell

/

I asked this same question a while back, hoping to get some feed back from owners of rimless doubles. I had a friend wanting a 375 H&H in a double. Surely there must be some users of rimless doubles out there? In regards to the 500/416, no doubt a fine calibre, but no need to wait, either one of the 450/400 Nitro's will do the job.

In my above post, I was remiss in failing to point out that my observations about the 9.3 mentioned were, in no way, intended as an indictment of Westley Richards. The rifle was exquisite. It simply would not extract or eject reliably despite recent attention from Paul Roberts (Rigby, London). I own double rifles from other English makers but no Westleys, which I regret.

In regard to the last post, most of the pre-war English double rifles were built on Birmingham trade actions or from forgings originating there. Webley & Scott built more "for the trade" than any other single maker (they were the largest gunmaker in Great Britain). Webley built their own actions in house. Their "long bar" boxlock, typified by the A & W model, is among the most celebrated of all boxlock actions. Many of the best-quality pre-war boxlock double rifles from the most prestigeous London makers are Webley & Scott A & W models.

[ 08-09-2002, 19:46: Message edited by: 400 Nitro Express ]

Alf-

This is the 3 barrel rifle from hauptmann who has the patent on this system. Quite interesting indeed.

If you hunt in cold climat with a dobble and the case freze to the chamber, wouldn't the rim make it easier to get the case out?

I'm deffinltly no expert but if I get a breake open gun of any kind I'd like rimmed rounds in it just in case.

Johan

Gator,

The .416 Rigby has been back to Westley Richards I believe twice during its life. It seems listening to the stories that this usually occurs coincident with one gent in this particular family handing the rifle down to his son.

By the way, about 200 of those shots were used to kill Cape buff.

jim dodd

This entire subject has been covered before by our resident double rifle gurus (Mac, RAB, & Atkinson). The gurus all said to a man that it is a BIG mistake to use a rimless cartridge! Further they said it was essentially a physical impossibility to shoot a high pressure rimless round in a double. So Alf, there you have it.

Larry
Could you please have WR send me a catolog? I have E-mailed you my address. A WR in 500/416 3 1/4 flanged! I think I could get into that.
Vince

The rimless hi pressure rounds tend to shoot off the face a lot sooner than low pressure rounds, that just makes since...I think all doubles shoot off the face and need a checkup ever so often....I know some Merkels that have shot off the face real quick, and all were rimless..the 470's have not, as far as I know...

I have heard the extractors overide the rimless case at times and that sounds feasable to me by double gun inspections, don't really know, but where there is that much smoke then there must be some fire...What I do know is I choose the low pressure flanged rounds to shoot my Buffalo....

I'll let the others take their chances with belted and/or rimless cases in double rifles.

Troll Bullshit - Deleted

[ 12-02-2002, 06:19: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]

Todd,
Perhaps some truth to what you say, and it sounds OK on the surface, now tell me why they put side clips on doubles rifles and reinforce the corners???? also why when a double shoots off the face it is sidewise play we look for...You reckon all that force goes only backwards?? or takes the course of least resistance?? Could some of that pressure twist the action??? Why then does a double crack in the corners? Do you think your review could be more applicable to bolt actions??

Keep in mind that doubles are blue pill tested at the same PSI as a bolt gun and that is the stance of those who say they are strong as a bolt gun..the truth is they can take a few of those blue pills, but they cannot take a steady diet of pressure like a bolt gun can, they just shoot off the face very quickly with pressure loads...

Troll Bullshit - Deleted

[ 12-02-2002, 06:18: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]

Larry @ WR,
It seems I've heard mention of a WR double built in .425 WR caliber. Is that true? did it work with the rebated rim of that cartridge?

Interesting topic. I'm no expert in mecanics etc. but I would also think that the problem has more to do with force than with pressure.
If I'm correct, in shotguns a S/S loosens up much faster than a O/U. I guess the same would apply for a rifle. If so, why are most double rifles still made in S/S design? Can't only be for nostalgic reasons.

Dutchgus,
The stackbarrel O/U would be less subject to the lateral stresses of the SXS, true.

Some O/U's do not have good hingepins but hinge on projections on either side of the internal receiver walls. Maybe Turd E will do an analysis of this for us.

The main problem with an O/U, even when set up with two triggers and non-automatic safety, is that the angle of opening must be greater to extract/eject the fired cartridges, and reload. This can be slower and less sure in the heat of rapid reloading in a hairy situation.

The upper and lower firing pins are often subject to different stresses due to the design, and one may be more prone to breakage than the other in an over and under.

The side by side is overall more reliable, but trickier to regulate in its construction, and more prone to wear, as you say.

I am no expert, but these are pretty obvious points.

If one is going to have a rimless or belted double rifle cartridge, then it ought to be in an O/U, have a single trigger, be fitted with a scope, and be dedicated to nondangerous game, IMHO.

But that would be like wearing a tuxedo to slop the hogs or shovel the manure down at the barn.

A bolt action if not a SXS, please.

ToddE, "resident double rifle gurus" in YOUR mind...

Right! By including me with the likes of Mac and Ray, ol' Turd E is insulting Mac and Ray, and honoring me. Or just what is this confused impostor doing, or these inconsistent impostors using the Turd E handle? That multiple personality disorder, Turd E, needs to get therapy. A new handle for each of them a bit of consistency would be a great start.

The name of Turd E will live in infamy.

Now this couldn't be the Todd E from here could it?
I have a confession to make

The same guy who said. . .
I would like to apologize to everyone here as I have been pulling your collective chains.

I originally told everyone I was a LEO, I am not.
I then told everyone I was a PhD in Mechanical Engineering, again I am not. I do not even hold an engineering degree! I am a 23 year old college student majoring in Early Childhood Development. I will be graduating the end of next year '03.

For the record I do not own a 416 Rigby, 500 AHR, 475 No2, or a 9.3X74R. I am not even much of a gun person. I own a 12 gauge Mossberg pump and a 9 mm auto pistol. I used to own a M1 carbine to, but sold it for school money.

I have never shot anything bigger than a rabbit, and then I felt terrible about shooting the rabbit afterwards.

Again I am sorry for having fun at all your expenses. I did learn alot here though about guns and hunting.

Sincerest apologize,
Todd Edwards

Or is it this Todd E

Originally posted by Todd E:
This will be my last post.

Nickudu,
Thanks for not posting his name as that really wouldn't be fair to him. There have been multiple users of this posting name (well two of us anyway). The guy you are talking about actually owns those guns, and did in fact speak to you via email (at least he said that he did). He is an engineer, and an old family friend. While I am no longer going to post anything here he might, but under his own name (at least a different one).

Todd Edwards

Troll Bullshit - Deleted

[ 12-02-2002, 06:17: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]

To All,
You have to admit he has an excellent knowledge of double rifles. At times he is a real source of information and can contribute greatly to this forum, From his post I believe him to be more than he claims and I suspect he has hunted more than he claims or at least is a student of the gun which he claimed not to be, unlike other distractors, all the more the shame..

Todd E.
I wish you would apoligize to all and promise to be a part of this forum, you have so much to add to it, that it would be a shame to lose your expertise...You screwed up big time and brought all this flaming on youself but YOU can turn it around....Make them a deal, they are good guys and most will accept a formal apology if you truly mean it....

Oh yeah, excellent post on the subject, we all know that.

Troll Bullshit - Deleted

[ 12-02-2002, 06:16: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]

IMHO

Some of the people on this board have been complaining about the quality of the posts and the flaming of posters for what they see as no particular reasons. Old dislikes are being carried over and newer members, such as myself, are haveing to be part of it.

I don't give rats ____ about who or what Todd E is or was. He could be WW Greener or Hilary Clinton for all I know. (Well maybe not Her). If Todd E's post on this subject are incorrect or you disagree than ask him to explain or start a dialogue (see Ray's posts for explaination). Don't just blast away because he has a post that doesn't include the words 'I heard' or 'the guys in the barbershop said'.

Despite the rhetoric directed at him and about him in the last month the posts from Todd E seem to me to be well thought out and well intentioned. Much more so than some of his detractors have been.

Don't refuse the message because you don't like the messenger.

[ 08-11-2002, 19:18: Message edited by: Gator1 ]

Todd E,
You know I respect greatly the knowledge, experience, and intelligence of someone posting under the Todd E handle. There have just been too many inconsistencies, yes, lies, involved with that handle. It needs to be retired or used for antagaonistic "Dufus" posts only, as fair warning that you want to play games. Newbies beware or be warned by some compassionate "one of us."

Get serious and tell us who the guy with the technical expertise is, by using an honest persona. Pick a name and stick with it, yours alone, not you and your friend(s)'s shared handle.

I will certainly apologize from the heart and quit this nonsense.

Troll Bullshit - Deleted

[ 12-06-2002, 07:00: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]

Whoever thought I'd be a peacemaker, but just goes to show, "the meek shall inherit the earth" and so there ya go, what can I say

I for one would like to put all the flaming away as I prefer the discussion of guns, hunting, good whisky, girls are now out of my circle, as best I can remember!!

For those who might take this as a sign of weakness, parish the thought, this does not mean that I will let myself be subjected to a constant flaming attack, I won't do that for very long. I don't treat people rudely, but I also will not tolerate rude behavior in person or on the internet..

Wonderful! Maybe W.W. Greener, Paul Mauser, John Browning, or William Batterman Ruger reincarnated? I just hope the strength of materials, mechanics, and metallurgy stuff doesn't dry up.

Guess I will have to follow Ron and Ray's lead then!

For my own self I would expect exemplary conduct on the part of the "new" you!

We stand among those who have long held high the cherished values Truth and Honor! I try to live up to those values every day! So should we all!

I look forward to learning of your knowledge!

Rusty
We band of brothers!