If you have Bill Gates' money, and you just want the most appropriate caliber DR to hunt

ellie [and buff as a "side dish"] within today's conditions in ZIM, [because you hear

the body weights of ellies are the heaviest there and you want lot's of hide for making

stuff], you care nothing about rifle resale, investment value, cost of ammo, etc, you think

the 700 NE is just undue and won't even consider it, what is the ONE caliber of

rifle that you take on this two week trip: 600NE, 577NE, 500NE, 475#2Jeff, 475#2, 470NE,

500/465NE, 500/450NE, 500/416NE, 450/400NE or what ever? Please give your reasons with your choice.

470NE basically because that's what I have and have used in Zimbabwe to take a nice Elephant. See no reason to look for anything else.

First of all, never hunted elephant and probably never will, so I guess you could call this my fantasy hunt.
A 500NE double, hand detachable locks. I think it offers great penetration, a fairly light weight, far better to recover from recoil for the second shot than the 577 and above, and more than enough "oomph" to get the job done!

I have had great results with my .470 NE and have taken elephant and cape buffalo with it. However, if I had Bill Gate's money, I would have three Holland and Holland double rifles custom built for me, one in .470 NE, one in .500 NE and one in .577 NE.

I have a .470NE and it is a fine caliber. I have killed an elephant along with the usual other stuff with it. However, if I was doing a lot of elephant hunting and most of the hunts were for bulls there is no doubt that I'd get a .500NE.

For a dedicated elephant rig it is a better choice than the .470 NE and it weighs about the same as the .470 class of rifles and the recoil is not significantly more than the .450-470 class of rifles. With all that in mind it does pack noticeably more wallop on game than the .470 class of rifles.

To go to the .577 and up is to sacrifice too much in shootability, weight and handling in my opinion.

As far as the .700 NE goes it is nothing more than a stupid rifle trick and a serious compensator. The weight and the bulk of that monstrosity make it impractical as a useable sporting arm. It gives the shooter no advantage other than the ability say “mines bigger than yours.â€

My PH said eother a 470 or 500, I have no experience with doubles, that is going to change soon.

I want to change up my hunting I did enough with the scoped 375 H&H so I switched to a open site 450 Dakota this year and loved it, I only shot one cow elephant because my back was in pain so bad I had to cut 2/3rds hunt off. The plan was 4 total elephants, so next year I'm taking the 450 again but will buy a double this year for practice for my 08 hunt. I'm not sure what caliber yet either 470 or 500.

577. Simply because it feels "Historically" the right caliber for elephant.

And as long as I have Gates' money, I'll want this exact 577

Warning: Do not click this image unless your heart is in perfect condition and you can handle Huge amounts of raw beauty

Click if you dare ;-)

577, engraved by Brown Bors, rumor says it did cost $415,000

450 NE 3 1/4", but regulated to shoot 500gr Woodleighs at 2200fps. Still low pressure as cartridges go but more penetration than a 470 at even the same speed. Almost a Lott in velocity but yours in the preferable DR.

Would be best in a modern DR, due to the slightly increased pressure. A nice rifle and a converted 458wm would be ideal since it would have been built with alot higher pressures in mind.

My hopes and dreams.

JPK

Perhaps I'll get one of these.

http://www.hollandandholland.com/gunrooms/london/new_gu...58/?cHash=52ba47fefa

It really isnt a hunting gun but wow its nice. And every year they are going up in price, I have done very good in investing in watches equivalant to Hollands, I'm very tempted. Or this one.

http://www.hollandandholland.com/gunrooms/london/new_gu.../4/?cHash=cdeb427d86

I would want a "special" built one, light weight and rugged, but a little different than the usual standards of fine taste for investment.

Westley Richards would build it with the drop lock mechanism, and hidden third fastener, rising bite, or doll's head, whichever WR prefers.

It will be a 470 NE.

With the 500 grain Flat Point solid by North Fork or the GSC FN, there will be no concerns about lack of penetration, and 2150 fps is enough.

Barrels will be 24" and slim with a splinter forend.

Weight will be 9.5 pounds and balanced on the hinge pin.

Sights will be a ghost ring peep with screw-in aperature to store in the grip trap, and a 3/16" wide patridge of gold with a 1/16" white line dividing it.

Might as well order two of these while I am dreaming.

One will be most expensive blue and walnut with engravings of nude Diana's all over it.

The other will be stainless and synthetic if WR will agree to a matte black finish of exposed metal with no adornments, and a brown fiberglass stock.

WR has my permission to use titanium where needed and lead or mercury weights if needed for balance.

With all these provisions, I'm sure it will be possible.

A British double in 450 No2 has done perfect on 4 elephants for me.
Any of the 450/475 class of Nitro Expresses would do as well.
I have shot 3 different 500 Nitro double rifles.
Their recovery time is a little longer than i like.
I would bprefer my 450/400 3 1/4" to a 500.

LV Eric,

Get the 500/465 as it appears from the photo the butt stock is relatively straight.

RIP,

WR is prohibited by Bristh law from selling DR's to anyone from Kentuck'.

quote:

577. Simply because it feels "Historically" the right caliber for elephant.

And as long as I have Gates' money, I'll want this exact 577

Warning: Do not click this image unless your heart is in perfect condition and you can handle Huge amounts of raw beauty

Click if you dare ;-)

577, engraved by Brown Bors, rumor says it did cost $415,000

Adrian:

In my book Gun Engraving by Christopher Austyn, he lists that exact rifle as a .600 and not a .577.

A beautiful Purdey for sure!

I think I would get one of the those double bolt rifles I see advertized. I need more junk...

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
I think I would get one of the those double bolt rifles I see advertized. I need more junk...

One thing for sure if you bought one of the bolt action doubles, you'd certainly have another piece of junk!

quote:

Originally posted by 577NitroExpress:

quote:

577. Simply because it feels "Historically" the right caliber for elephant.

And as long as I have Gates' money, I'll want this exact 577

Warning: Do not click this image unless your heart is in perfect condition and you can handle Huge amounts of raw beauty

Click if you dare ;-)

577, engraved by Brown Bors, rumor says it did cost $415,000

Adrian:

In my book Gun Engraving by Christopher Austyn, he lists that exact rifle as a .600 and not a .577.

A beautiful Purdey for sure!

Hello!!

I love your name, I think you know why

The Rifle you are refering to in this book is # 29600 which is a 600NE engraved with the big five. The rifle I posted is # 29577 (yes, the owner of both rifles reserved the serial numbers to match the calibers!!) It is a 577 Nitro Express. You can look further in the book and you will see the other side of the action (before stocking) and it is listed as 577 NE.

Well, I stand corrected! That gun is really gorgeous!

To throw my $.02 into the ring, I think I would go with a Westley Richards .500 NE 3", sidelock, 24" barrels, best wood I could find, with full rose and scroll engraving, color case hardened.

BUT!

I would also have a .600 NE 3" built, Purdey (exactly like Adrian listed above) for when the stuff hit the fan...

It's fun to dream!

quote:

Originally posted by 577NitroExpress:


I would also have a .600 NE 3" built, Purdey (exactly like Adrian listed above) for when the stuff hit the fan...

It's fun to dream!

Why just dream? Start a saving account and put $500 into it each month and you will ge the 415,000 in.... OMG that would be 70 years!!!

Sorry mate, let's just keep dreaming

It's been fun reading this collection of ideas.

I am really keying in on the CALIBERS BEING CHOSEN.

See, with men like B. Searcy and Ken Owen among us, the AVERAGE GUY can save up and get a DR in any caliber, 600 NE on down.

So that's what I am really asking.

In today's conditions, [looking to shoot a BIG BODIED ELLIE] usually the shooting is CLOSE I'm told.

So aren't we all best off choosing the 600 NE, the ultimate close quarters ellie killer?

Jack: An important question you need to answer for this exercise is whether you will carry the rifle or have one of the trackers carry it. Believe me a 13 to 14 pound 600NE is a chore on a 10 mile walk. If you are going to be the carrier, set 10 pounds as your target weight. With that in mind my dream gun is a 450 3&1/4 Westley drop lock with false sideplates. It will be coin finished, cased in crocodile and Bulino engraved by Rashid at WR. That gun can be done at 10 pounds and has plenty of power for your elephant. This cartridge lends itself to a very sleek framed gun.

I think the 450 NE 3 1/4" is about the perfect round, but again I'd want it in a newer gun and regulated with a 500gr bullet at 2200fps. Either a Woodleigh solid or I'd ask Mike Brady at North Fork to make me a batch of his .458" flat nosed solids at 500grs rather than his std of 450grs.

Typically a rifle is regulated with a soft point load and a few solids are shot to make sure they aren't too far off. I'd do it the other way around. I'd also specify a 500gr bullet at 2200fps. A good solid will be your only choice for elle and a dandy choice for buff too.

What LJS says about the 450 NE 3 1/4" is true. It is a trimmer round based on the 450 case and not the 500 case as the 500/450, 500/465, 470 are. I'd shoot for a trim 10 1/2 lb rifle with 26" barrels. If the rifle was 10lbs I'b be plenty happy, if it was 11 lbs I wouldn't be so happy.

JPK

BTW, the 577NE was favored over the 600NE for better penetration. This seems consistant across all of the older stuff I've read. Either way, the really big rifle was not the typical primary elephant rifle, which was more likely something in the 450NE class, but was a more specialized rifle for multiple elephants in really thick stuff or for follow up.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
I think I would get one of the those double bolt rifles I see advertized. I need more junk...

One thing for sure if you bought one of the bolt action doubles, you'd certainly have another piece of junk!

How about a double Blazer in 45-70
(apologies in advance for ruined keyboards)

{Of course the rifle must be one which the hunter can handle well, and is WELL PRACTICED WITH!}

What I have read leads me to the conclusion that the 600 had some questionable performance early on.

The question was soon a thing of the past.

John Taylor wrote that it would keep a head shot, [but brain missed] ellie off his feet nearly a half an hour.

That is more than than the 577 NE or any other smaller round.

He said he had stuck a bamboo staff into a bullet channel in the head of an ellie shot with 600 NE.

It was two feet "plus" deep and he declared that plenty.

I read where AR's own "500 Grains" - Dan has been very, VERY close to multiple ellies during his recent safaris.

As close as a few feet away IIRC.

If that's to be the case I am thinking 600 NE, yes, it's a good thing!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

RIP,

WR is prohibited by Bristh law from selling DR's to anyone from Kentuck'.

Will,
I shall have to order it and receive it at one of my alternate addresses. They approve of Kansas over Kaintuck?

Just for that, I am going to make WR charge me more by adding false sideplates to my droplocks, and I shall require them to extend the plates rearward over the grips ala Selous plates. There will also be an extended tang past the nose of the comb rearward. All the extra metal is to be made of titanium steel, with finely checkered grip panels.

These remarkable innovations shall apply to both the Sunday-Go-To-Meetin gun of walnut and blue, as well as the stainless and synthetic DR.

There! That'll fix their wagon, and mine!

I'd take the (Bill Gates style) cash and head for The Searcy house and see what Butch could dredge up for me.......I assure you all that you'd not like it at all as it'd have a single trigger, American walnut (very) fancy wood, traditional boxlock action, and American styling with full beavertail foreend.

The cliber would be 416 or 411 of some type and rimmed. However the 416 Rigby wouldn't irritate me at all.

Barrels to be no more than 24" and total weight to be no more than nine pounds complete.

I realize that with Bill's checkbook I could spend a lot more for a gun.....but I'm a shooter and have never been a collector.

I';d have faith that this gun from Searcy would suit my style and preference and confidence best of all.

Jack,

I've been feet from elephants too, and it does keep you focused. Makes your rifle feel small too.

No way I could shoot a 600NE enough to become "one with the gun". 450 level recoil is plenty tolerable to shoot alot and to shoot often.

A 375 Flanged Magnum offers easy recoil for plenty of shooting and accurate shooting, sufficient penetration to kill any elephant, but lacks in stopping power. Rifles are relatively light and easy to carry.

600NE offers lots of recoil which makes practice and accurate shooting issues, adds significantly to recovery time for a second shot, but has a relative abundance of stopping power. Rifles need to be relatively heavy and difficult to carry, and to me slower to get into action.

Given the choices at the extreme, I would choose the 375 Flanged Magnum over the 600 NE.

Fortunately, no need to pick either extreme. In the middle we can choose 450/400, 500/416, 450, 465, 470, 475, 476(probably the more effective combo of bullet weight, diameter and velocity of any of the traditional NE loadings), 500.

My choice is a slightly hotrodded 450NE 3 1/4" as the best compromise. Cheap to practice with, tolerable recoil, quick recovery time - so long as you practice enough, relatively light and trim. Best of all, enough bullet weight to knock an elephant down with a less than perfect shot - most of the time - especially cows, which are the ones that are most likely to cause trouble.

Too much gun causes more issues than too litle, IMO.

JPK

LJS makes a very good point, who is carrying the rifle for most of the day; the hunter or a "bearer"?

For this exercise let's say a "bearer" is part of the scenario.

Also, the hunter is very capable with his rifle, well practiced, quite confident.

Jack: If your "bearer" is going to carry your gun, practice your sprinting as well as shooting. It is amazing how fast they can run carrying your rifle when the shit hits the fan. If I'm involved with elephants, I want the gun in my hand.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
To go to the .577 and up is to sacrifice too much in shootability, weight and handling in my opinion.

Your right carring around a heavy gun following up tracks gets to be a hasstle.

Ok if I had all the money in the world it would be a new Holland & Holland Royal grade in 500 3". I would specify a 10 1/2 lb weight and I would want to be standing there with the stocker for the final fitting. I don't think I would go with a pre-owned pre-war gun. Those between the war rifles were built the best but you are looking at a gun that is from 65 to 100 years old. Although the steels used were the best available they are getting old and most of those guns were used hard.

I use to let a tracker occasionaly carry my DG rifle but not since we spent several days tracking eles through a few hundred acre of bush where we later found out there was a wounded buffalo that had gored and nearly killed a young boy. I'll keep my rifle in hand thanks.


465H&H

If I were only going to have one particular cartridge I would choose something between 450 and 500 as the best compromise between power and shootability. If I could have two cartridges I would get a 450-400 or maybe even a (god forbid) bolt gun in 375 or 416 for all around work and a 577 that would be carried by a bearer to be used when things got thick or a wounded animal needed to be taken care of.

Personally it would have to be a 500/465 but anything between one of the 450's and a 577 would be fine.

I do think a 600 would be really cool but be realistic..... You are sacrificing weight, recovery time, recoil, etc for a little extra power, which I dont think is needed when a lighter gun will do just as well in the hands of a practiced shot.

How rare are the 475#2 DR (not sure which companies made this caliber)and what would one in decent hunting condition go for on average? I'm not talking about a collector rifle but one that you can hunt with and is still reliable. I also like the 470 Nitro for a stopper but I don't think it is any better that other calibers from 450 to 475. I'm saving for a DR of a traditional maker vs a new model but I think the new models may be more affordable. At any rate, these discussions help a great deal for someone trying to figure out what is what.

Woody

Under 20K for smaller than 500NE working used Brit DR is realistic.

Call George Douglas 509-671-1207 in Wash. State.

He's got a couple UK 470NE's right now in that range.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
I'd take the (Bill Gates style) cash and head for The Searcy house and see what Butch could dredge up for me...... boxlock action, and American styling with full beavertail foreend.

Butch won't put a full beavertail forend on a big double! I know because I tried, the biggest he would go for was a semi-beavertail. The reason is you have wrap your fingers up and around to hang on to the barrels or you will (eventually) rip the forend off the gun due to recoil.

I went with a Searcy PH in 500NE 'cause "everybody" has a 470NE and it's said to be a better caliber for Elephant when the chips are down and the potty hits the fan. Also brass and bullet costs really start to go up after you exceed 50 caliber.

Money was only partially an issue, I buy guns to use and shoot and the good regulation I heard about Searcys and the fact it would be made to fit me where deal clinchers.

Regarding SEARCY - www.searcyent.com - the 600 NE is 6K more than the 577 because he only does one a year or so.

He told me this about 6 hours ago via phone.

So how about a "GROUP BUY" of say 20 of us and we get the 600 NE for 577 NE cost!

What's the cost you ask, 18K for 577 - 24K for 600.

That 24K is the non-discounted price.

{Hey, I just hi-jacked my own thread!!! }

{Look in the double rifles forum for this idea in it's own new thread.}