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The Outdoor Channel recently aired a show with a hunter representing Hornady, I didn't catch the hunters name but it appeared he couldn't get his sights lined up in time, with the PH hurriedly hollering "shoot him" the PH finely shot the fleeing buff (look like a spine shot) and then the client ran up and put his shot in. Hard to know for sure but at the sound of the first shot the camera was on the clients rifle and there was no muzzle jump or any sign of recoil. In the Boddington on Buff DVD the PH shot immediately after the hunters, it's been suggested here on AR that this was at the request of the clients. In most of the videos I've seen including those of Saeeds this is not the case. Of the people I have met personally, every one has either said they tell the PH to back them up with prudence or only when someone's life is in danger. Then there are the supposedly ones we hear about that inform the PH not to shoot under any circumstance. I find this one the hardest to believe but it has been implied in discussions here so I'll add it. | ||
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I tell my PH to shoot whenever he think it is necessary. Apparently he likes to save his ammo! He says he only shoots if a dangerous situation arise. He thinks his best hunt is when he does not fire a single shot. That is why I like to hunt with him. | |||
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Hey, if you were tagging along with clients day in and day out and all your rifle is doing was collecting dust in the barrel, you might be tempted into coming up with excuses to shoot every once in awhile. PH's that make it a practice of immediately shooting upon the clinet's shot is just yanking the clients chain and doing some of the hunting at the client's expense. I do not see this as being very prevalent in the field, but you never know what a new to you PH might do. If you kill or make a readily apparent disabling shot you will eliminate any desire, or excuse, on the part of the PH to shoot. If he still shoots, you have a "Problem" PH that should be shooting animals on his own tab. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Any PH that fired a shot behind mine, without very good cause, just shot his tip out the end of the barrel, and I would never hunt with him again, and would not recommend him to others. A PH was not hired to fire follow-up shots at non-charging game, or to fire insurance shots, in my view. I've never had a PH fire a shot. I've never had the subject come up. I also think you can't turn that judgement into a five-choice poll. I expect my PH to understand that it's my hunt, and he's being paid to use his best judgement. (His shooting at wounded game moving away is not good judgement.) I can see it now. You introduce yourself to your PH then hand him a list of seven situations in which he will be allowed to fire and 17 in which he won't. Shit happens, and everyone pulls out their list to determine which criteria applies. | |||
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I told them that I'd rather they shoot only when a life is in danger, but that it was their call when to shoot. My first buff I hit at the point of the shoulder, and he ran off. While casting about trying to track him the PH (Pete Waddelowe) jumped the buff and shot at him twice (missing)- which I thought rather sudden. Pete said he did not think the wound was immediately fatal, and as the buff seemed rather mobile he decided to shoot. Twelve hundred yards later I had to bow to Pete's wisdom. As it turned out - again while casting about for sign - Pete jumped the buff by accident and proceeded to put a finisher in him at ten yards. I was about 40 yards away screened by bush and had no shot. Although disappointed that mine wasn't the fatal shot, I thought - and still think - that Pete acted properly. There's no sense in having the buff suffer longer than necessary, and he might have gotten away wounded. I think my second PH (Alan Vincent) would not have shot the buff in the same situation, but still I would not second guess Pete. I don't like the PHs that always "follow up" - sometimes ahead of the clients. Don_G ...from Texas, by way of Mason, Ohio and Aurora, Colorado! | |||
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I also would not want a PH doing follow-up shots on my animal unless someone's life was in danger. What I love are the "handgun hunters" and "bow hunters" who either have another hunter along with a rifle to kill the animal if they're unsuccessful or have a rifle along themselves in case a shot with their handgun or bow doesn't present itself. In my opinion, a hunter that does that knows his weapon is ineffective and shouldn't be using it and should call his hunting for what it is; rifle hunting. | |||
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On my recent Tanzania hunt, the ph said he only shoots when the animal is charging. Good policy.. | |||
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I don't like anyone shooting at my animal, and the only time I've had a PH fire a shot was in a close charge of a lone Buffalo bull. That was indicated, IMO! I see all these posts yelling about a PH backing them up, when in the USA most often, if a group are hunting together for deer, hogs or rabbits, for that matter, a deer, or hog jumps, and everyone starts slinging lead, no matter who saw the animal first, and fired on it! Some of the same guys complaining about a PH backing him, are in thet EVERYBODY SHOOT group in the deer patch! I've always told my PHs that as long as the animal is in the open, and I have room to shoot, I will do the shooting. However, if the animal is wounded, and the bush is thick, he is to give him a parting shot, before he gets into the long grass! This has never been a problem, because most PHs worth their salt, knows when it is apropriate to get in the action, and when it is not! I guess I've just been lucky in that respect. I even fired two shots into the Heart/lung area of an ele being shot by a friend, as did the PH! This was after a botched brain shot on a big bull. We fired because the client hunter told us to fire on him if he didn't go down from the brain shot, because he was only 1000 yds from the national park. It made little difference anyway because my friend's second shot, hit the brain from a quartering away shot behind the head, dropping him in a cloud of dust! I would never have fired a shot if he hadn't told me to, I don't know about the PH! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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easy Grumulkin, 90% of hunters after DG have a PH with a rifle to back them up in case they fluff the shot or the animal charges. Does that mean a rifle is also inadequate  "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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If they are bow hunting and have someone backing them up with a bow, I'll still call it bow hunting. If they are hunting with a handgun and their backup is also armed with a handgun I'll still call it handgun hunting so... If they are hunting with a rifle and their backup is carrying a rifle, I'll still call that rifle hunting. And yes, it's possible their rifle was inadequate but it's much more likely for a bow or handgun to be inadequate otherwise, the backup would no doubt carry these weapons on occasion. | |||
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I cannot believe I am seeing this crap again for the second time in less than a week. Crumulkin-Please tell me in what country I can legally hunt DG without a gun toting PH backing me up.Go ahead and list all of them that you know of. The list will not be long because there are none.A bowhunter or a handgunner (or a rifle hunter for that matter) has to be accompanied by a PH with a rifle by law.In some countries a gun toting game scout is also required to be there. In my opinion all these hangers on just make it more difficult to approach to bow range undetected.The task would be easier if they were not there.BUT YOU DO NOT HAVE THAT OPTION.BY LAW, THEY HAVE TO BE THERE. We seldom get to choose But I've seen them go both ways And I would rather go out in a blaze of glory Than to slowly rot away! | |||
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I don’t know how many hunters I have seen who were excellent at shooting paper but who were the worst marksmen when hunting flesh. They were plenty! I don’t know how often I had the opportunity to finish off a suffering animal and didn’t take it because the client told me that he would be the only one doing the shooting. In most instances he was the one who fell back due to a poor physical condition which made the animal suffer. I don’t know how many days I have spent on tracks due to a poor first shot. Probably more than most people on this forum have spent in Africa. Eventually I created a rule. If the first shot would be poor according to my judgement, I would take the first opportunity. That of course only when it would be foreseeable that the client had no chance of getting into a shooting position. Some people are okay with it, some are not, others might feel cheated. But it works and saves unnecessary suffering for the animal and time for everybody else!!! | |||
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What does a PH do when he realizes his client is a horrible shot? ( Horrible defined as can't hit a target at 50 yd., when he does it's in the guts ) Let's say your client shot a kudu at 50 yd in the guts . You spend 6 hours tracking it and you finally get a shot at say 3oo yd. Do you let your client shot at it knowing there no way he will hit it? or do you end it's suffering and piss off your client ? When does a PH have a morale responsibility to end an animal suffering? Robert Johnson | |||
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Every client and every circumstance is different.... I much prefer not to shoot at all and as someone else posted, my idea of a good safari is one I don't have to use my rifle.... (Although there are many other factors!) BUT I don't know of a single set of game laws in a single African country, that doesn't state that the PH is bound by law to shoot in defense of human life and/or to put a wounded animal out of it's suffering as soon as possible. | |||
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It is of course always best to get this clear with your PH/Outfitter before booking, which I did and had no problems. I think that most of the problems occurs because of unspoken rules. I will say this though. I have watched the Boddington video on Buffalo hunting and the Zimbabwe PH (I think it was Andrew Dawson) pretty much says that he always shoots after the hunter. His reasoning is the thick jess, etc., but I have to say that this would put me off unless the PH really determined that the shot wasn't fatal or of course in case of a charge. For example, picture the scenario where you just made a good heart/lung on a broadside buffalo and after it takes 3 steps the PH's big bores goes off and he drops to the shot. Sure, mentally I can tell myself that I killed the buffalo, but in my gut I might feel otherwise. It certainly wouldn't be the video in my head that I would want to play back over and over. And as far as the thick jess goes, well, that's what the PH gets paid for. Fortunately most PH's I've asked about this don't follow this rule. "I envy not him that eats better meat than I do; nor him that is richer, or that wears better clothes than I do; I envy him, and him only, that kills bigger deer than I do." Izaak Walton (modified) | |||
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"I envy not him that eats better meat than I do; nor him that is richer, or that wears better clothes than I do; I envy him, and him only, that kills bigger deer than I do." Izaak Walton (modified) | |||
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I believe it is the clients right to get things square with the PH before the hunt and not after he, the ph has to shoot... Look at it this way, if you are hunting DG with your son or sons I would make it perfectly clear to the PH to protect my sons and I will take care of myself... Mike | |||
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I've only hunted with one guy who I felt like was hunting on our dime... I won't be hunting with him again. ______________________ | |||
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I saw a hunting show the other day in which a guy shot a big grizzly with a bow. The beast runs off. The next day they track it down and it's still alive and charges them. Fortunately they didn't try to follow up the wounded bear with a bow but with a shotgun and a rifle. When the victorious hunter is shown with his bear, will he be holding his bow or a firearm? Will the bear go down in the record books as being taken with a bow or with a rifle? Actually, there is dangerous game in the U.S.A. and one is not required to have someone backing up with a rifle. In Africa, there is such requirement. I have no problem with the PH backing up to save life and limb; that is his job. Unless someone's life is at stake, I want to do my shooting myself and I would decline to hunt with someone who thought he should give me a backup shot every time on dangerous game. I'm also not going to whine if my animal gets away and I still have to pay a trophy fee. I also think bow hunting animals like elephant, cape buffalo, lion, etc. is mainly a stunt for the record books. It would take someone who was very brave, very dumb or suicidal to do so without a firearm for back up. The fact that said bow hunter, needs a gun for back is good evidence that a bow was inadequate to begin with. I don't care if someone goes bow hunting accompanied by someone with a firearm for backup. As for me, I'm not going to put something on my wall I didn't take myself and I'm not going to tell someone I took it with a bow, handgun, etc. if it's been shot up by someone else with a rifle. | |||
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In my thirty years of guiding in Alaska and hunting around the world I've learned that the clients who brag the most and whine the most about not wanting a guide/PH to shoot "their" animal are usually the worst shots. The competent ones just do their thing and rarely require a back up. That has been my experience. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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If the client is hunting with a true professional, this will not be a problem because (i) the PH will discuss the issue with the client before hand so that they can reach an understanding, (ii) the PH will get the client close enough to make a good shot, and (iii) the PH will only shoot when it is necessary and appropriate. However, there are some PHs who really love hunting but have not gotten to do much of it themselves, so they look for a chance to pull the trigger. Better to weed those fellows out during the booking process and then there will not be an issue. | |||
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The same way a PH/outfitter need to weed out safari bwanas who can't shoot or have too much of an ego  "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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From reading the comments here, I get the impression a lot of the one's that voted to trust the PH done so because of a particular PH's reputation or they've hunted with the PH in the pass and knew what to expect. In my post, I failed to make it clear that I was looking at this from the perspective of hunting with a new to you PH, possibly one that doesn't realize that his thoughts on the subject may not be universal. You wouldn't think so due to all the heat these topics generate but my own observation is.... there really isn't all that many clashing expectations. A big thanks to all for participating. | |||
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Better to discuss it with him in advance and make it perfectly clear what your expectations are with regard to backup or lack of it.
Once you have been eliminated from consideration based on experience/competence criteria, I am afraid you would not be in a position to perform any weeding out of your own.  | |||
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On my recent buff hunt, my PH in Zim allowed me the pleasure of hammering the charging bull 4 times with my 470....when the bull hit the ground, the PH ASKED if it was OK to hit him once more...and I said "go ahead". Now, I must admit that had he shot while the buff was coming, I don't think....actually I know....I would'nt have minded a bit. The buff dropped 20 yards from us....however, I can assure you that Craig had his 416 on the bull from the start. Needless to say, he didn't have to worry about his tip.  Gary | |||
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Sorry....got caught up in re-telling the story for the second...maybe third...or...time. The PH and I did discuss what I would like for him to do in the case of follow up shots. My discussion was simple...if I can't do my job, do your's. I don't want to lose a wounded animal and I don't want anyone hurt....period. The PH and I had a great relationship. Gary | |||
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How could a PH agree to the terms of a back up shot or not with a new client untill he finds out if the client can shoot under pressure? | |||
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Good PHs pay a lot of attention to how you shoot when "sighting-in" your rifle. Good advice is to ask these sorts of questions and work out what happens before the hunting begins. Do you want the PH to back you up immediately ie do your shooting for you? Do you want him to shoot if he thinks the animal will get away wounded or is running away? Or only if someone is in danger? For the last all good PHs should do this no matter what the clients instructions are. I am happy for the PH to shoot if the animal looks likely to escape wounded. A PH also shot at a water buffalo which I had shot twice, and I told him I wanted this as it was almost too dark and if the animal did run off we couldn't follow it. After his shot I also put a couple more in, so it fell over. If a boundary is very close, it is a good idea to make sure the animal is anchored quickly too. In any case if the first shot is a disabling or killing shot (maybe not instantly on very big game), it doesn't really matter. I do NOT like PHs who shoot at the same time as the client as in a video I once saw. If they demand to do this they can pay the trophy fee themselves. Forget about just the tip. | |||
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If the paying client client is always right, How about those who asks the PH to shoot immediately following their shot? It happens every bit as often as the client who insists the PH never shoot. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Phil Probably. Perhaps they should be referred to as 'trophy collectors" not hunters. Same as the guys who get their "trophies" shooting game in very small pens, from helicopters etc. Bragging heads for the wall only. | |||
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the PH and client should discuss it before the hunt begins. Although that is not my style, if the client wishes it and it is legal, then the PH and client should be able to work out an arrangement. | |||
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I think if PHs and outfitters told the truth about some of their clients, not many people would hunt with them. For every negative report I see about an outfitter or PH, I hear at least 20 of obnoxious clients who have no business going to hunt in Africa. I have had first hand experience of at least two while I was hunting myself! | |||
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When the PH feels it's necessary. Like it or not from the minute you step off the plane all the way to the gun range. The outfitter has to make a judgment about you and your shooting abilities. Your shooting abilities play a large part on his decision to back you up. Some hunters will allways require some help! If you don't want back up, do your part! Know the anatomy of the animals your hunting and show up with a rifle you can accurately shoot off hand . ( There are no gun vises or shooting benches in the field) Robert Johnson | |||
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