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What kind of standards do PHs use when judging a trophy for a client? Let's say you have a client paying a daily rate and the standard trophy fee. Surely the PH can't hold out for only Rowland Ward animals. Is a PH going to let the client shoot animals that aren't even SCI bronze? Or will the PH hold out for trophies that are at least silver? Basically, what standards does a PH use for purposes of letting the client shoot or not? | ||
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Well, given recent discussions on AR, the PH will also be charged with ensuring that the client doesn't shoot anything too big.  | |||
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I have always shot what we came across. Only once was I denied an animal. | |||
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On my only safari the PH and I discussed priorities and goals before we started hunting--what species I was most interested in and what my trophy expectations were--all I was looking for was representative individuals-but I don't think he would have stopped me if something massive had shown up. "The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane." Mark Twain TANSTAAFL www.savannagems.com A unique way to own a piece of Africa. DSC Life NRA Life | |||
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Really? If your out hunting for bronze or silver aren't you missing the point of the hunt? ------------------------------ A mate of mine has just told me he's shagging his girlfriend and her twin. I said "How can you tell them apart?" He said "Her brother's got a moustache!" | |||
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Amen! Well stated! . | |||
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Guys, I understand that. I'm just trying to get an idea of what PHs use as a general metric for deciding if an animal should be taken. | |||
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It's been my experience that the SCI minimums are pretty much a good representative male. Not great, but not bad either. The PH's I have been fortunate enough to hunt with have basically said that if the area that you are in can't make that level of trophy or is substantially better than that, they will have a talk with the client and go from there. My first hunt, when I thought I would get my buffalo and be done with Africa after that in all likelihood be done, we talked and while I didn't want garbage, I was more interested in getting all the species than getting one exceptional one. That adjusted how we looked at the game, and while the trophy size objectively was smaller, we were shooting something basically every day. More recently, I am looking at being more interested in the best the area has to offer and if I don't shoot, I don't shoot. It falls to talking with your PH and letting him know your goals.... But knowing the record books can prevent you being sold a bill of goods by a unscrupulous operator. A worn down old buff may not score well, but you know what it is. A sharp unworn 32" buffalo is not a representative trophy in most areas. Basically, you can be surprised with how big something ends up being, but if you are surprised with how small it is, either a mistake was made, things were not communicated well, or you were taken. The PH should know his area well enough to give you an idea of what is representative, what is a "first day shooter" and what is "we can do better"in that area if you ask him. This may not coincide with SCI, but it is better to get it up front. | |||
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Do you shoot the first animal you are allowed to shoot? I believe the question is a about the PH's decision making. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Matt - Why would actually answering the question posed by the poster be of importance here on AR?  Just Asking?Larry Sellers SCI(International)Life Member R8 Blaser
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Hunting with a new PH, it is best to ask someone who knows the PH well-- AR is a good start-- If this is not an option- If you tell the PH "I want good representative mature animals" or "I only want the old boys" This is a good start- | |||
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Half the animals I saw were below average. Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | |||
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" Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins. When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar. Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move... Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies... Only fools hope to live forever “ Hávamál” | |||
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Tex, you should have a discussion with your PH and tell him what you consider a trophy - you set the standard. And, don't forget you pay the bills. AIU | |||
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+1 | |||
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Boarkiller - maybe you can't comprehend English or whatever? My comment was about all the folks NOT answering the posters question but going off on their own tangent. Nothing negative about the poster or his question. Something that happens a lot here on AR. Matt made his comment as to what the poster was actually asking and wondered why some were not addressing it. My comment just reinforced his statement. Name calling is such a flattering trait of yours. Maybe folks are like that in Montana?  Guess you just can't pick up on the jest of things, huh?Larry Sellers SCI(International)Life Member R8 Blaser
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I think every PH sets personal standards for himself. And these standards can be driven or influenced by any of (or a combination of) the following: Personal pride Experience Knowledge Need / desire to make money One can have as much pride as you want as PH, but if you have no experience in judging the animals you're hunting and no knowledge of the animals or areas you're hunting - chances are your personal standards will not be great... Well at least not until such time you've gained experience and knowledge... A responsible and experienced PH will always endeavour to guide his client not only to mature and representative trophies, but to the best possible trophy that the circumstances dictates. And these circumstances could be influenced by (amongst others): Trophy potential in the area he is hunting. The abilities (often physical) of the client he his guiding The expectations of the client he is guiding His personal pride An inexperienced PH's decisions might be driven by the same factors as listed above but chances are that he will make some bad calls along the way. An irresponsible or unscrupulous PH's decision to shoot or not to shoot might be driven by his desire to make money / greed - in which event the last mentioned factors will probably play no role whatsoever. Regards, Chris Troskie Tel. +27 82 859-0771 email. chris@ct-safaris.com Sabrisa Ranch Ellisras RSA www.ct-safaris.com https://youtu.be/4usXceRdkH4 | |||
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There are hundreds (thousands?) of PH's. Probably just as many standards. Turn the question around, what standards do hunters use when evaluating a trophy? _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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Normally I communicate far in advance of what to expect from a concession. I strive for hunting mature animals that have good heads or considered good trophies. Hunting being the important component. If one is hunting for inches or awards then expect to turn down some good animals and there is a possibility that these goals may not be achieved. Nevertheless I have always found that the hunting has always been fine and everyone has gone away more than satisfied with their African experience. Communication is all important when dealing with expectations on trophy animals and I have always been more than happy with the game I selected for my hunters. Of course everyone would like a 50 inch Sable but if he is 40 and mature I recommend you put him on the ground. For example that would be my standard for Sable in Zambia but it will vary from country to country. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Well said Andrew Thor Kirchner Munyamadzi Game Ranch +260 978157643 P.O. Box 570049 Nyimba, Zambia www.thorwildlifesafaris.com munyamadzi@live.com | |||
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Look forward to hunting along side you in a few weeks time mate and note my theory does not apply to your 60 inch Kudu. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Tex84 To attempt an answer, there's a few things he'd want to know. First, is this your first trip? If it is, you might have to approach hunting as something other than shopping -- "take what the bush provides". If it is a trip where you are building on a list already started, he might be more refined in helping you find "trophies". Your PH wants to make you happy, but he also must produce (if not for you, for the landowner/concession arrangement) and you taking productive shots is a financial priority for him. Also, since he knows the territory and where to look, you have to trust he's doing his best for all concerned. This is where interpersonal relationships come in -- the faster you can get to being friends the better in most cases. What I am trying to say is this. Communicate beforehand and at all times during your hunting trip, staying true to your own wishes for the hunt and animals pursued. However, taking things as they come is probably more fun. Sometimes we strike out and have to make the best of it/take another trip. That's hunting. 2 cents _______________________ | |||
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I have had both kinds of PH's- whack and stack type and the ones that try to find the best available within reason. Just talk to them and usually you can discern what kind they are. I have had 2 poor ones and the rest good. Contrast to guided hunts in the USA, I have had two good ones and several sub-standard ones. I think that is a function of experience and training. In the USA, there is limited opportunities for training. Usually, they are just tossed out there and told to hunt. | |||
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The more financially desperate the PH the shorter the horns is generally how it goes. But seriously, communication is the key. BEFORE you book, have a long discussion about the species you are after, the quality of the trophy, how prepared you are to find that specific trophy, and whether or not you are willing to go home empty handed if you do not see what you are after. Some guys go over for the experience and to just to drop animals, other go to trophy hunt. It is important to discuss this with your PH before you go. PHs are paid on both the daily rate as well as the trophy fee. If animals are not falling, they are not making money. If the PH understands that you are willing to pass on sub-quality animals for your dream trophy, they may decide that their hunting areas simply do not match your expectations and both of you can save a lot of headache by moving on. The other side of the coin is learn how to judge animal quality for yourself. There are simple tell-tell signs of a monster animal for virtually every species. Look at a lot of pictures and you can begin to see quality for yourself. The other side of the story is there have been more than a few PHs caught using tape measures with the first three inches cut off the tape. Then there is the dreaded dryout shrinkage that happens from the moment you shoot till the time your trophy arrives at your house. Based on some animals that I have seen mounted, dryout shrinkage can account for 3 to 5 inches as well. Pick your PH wisely and you will have a better chance of finding the trophy quality you are after. ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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I misunderstood your jest Larry No apology though, maybe you should just write it better so us simple folks don't get confused " Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins. When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar. Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move... Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies... Only fools hope to live forever “ Hávamál” | |||
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Tex84 - As others have mentioned it's probably best to converse with your PH, if possible, prior to the hunt and convey your thoughts on your trophy expectations. Then get his side as well, then proceed to have a really great adventure. Good luck and hunt safe. bk - no apology needed. I simply just consider the source. Larry Sellers SCI(International)Life Member R8 Blaser | |||
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On my first hunt, I told my PH to not worry about inches, I'm just interested in representative animals and enjoying the hunt. Even with that he told me once not to shoot a particular steenbok as it would barely make gold medal and he thought that we could get one better. (We did) Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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Trophy standards are in the eye of the beholder. Mine is hopefully older animal, but overall, the hunt is more important then that. Of course, everyone will get disappointed sooner or later in hunting situations, be it not trophy they desired or no success on particular hunt. " Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins. When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar. Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move... Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies... Only fools hope to live forever “ Hávamál” | |||
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Sounds like the PH did a good job and didnt mind using the SCI 'standards' to get a good result. You can do that - doesn't mean you are chasing awards or even record book entries. Typically - higher scoring animals are older animals - but that isn't a 'straight line' relationship as we all know. I find most hunters at least partly rely on the PH/guide for direction on trophy size, in the sense of standards. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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GBE will be pleased to know 60 inch Kudu is the new minimum for our hunt with you Thor. Along with the 19 inch Bushbuck and the 26 inch Impala we should be positively rolling in medals - !!!!! | |||
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my ph would not let you shoot any thing he thought was to little. always trying to get you the largest trophy he thought he could put in front of you. thats why i loved hunting with him. | |||
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I had purchased a package hunt at auction. The package included a kudu. As like most African hunters, kudu is a prized trophy plains game animal. I desperately wanted one. However, we did not get an opportunity at a mature specimen. Such is hunting. I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
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I believe that scoring methods by either SCI, rowland ward or any record keeping institution are useful, because they give a point of reference to know how big an animal is that many hunters can relate to and know what the other hunter is talking about, instead of just saying "big" or "small"  | |||
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going back to the original question, what standards does the Ph use to judge trophy size,,,,,,The standards begin with his knowledge of the hunting area and what is the quality and number of the game that live there. Anyone that hunts Africa will learn that certain areas have certain species that have better quality and numbers. With that information a discussion can be made about expectations of what animals are desired and what the trophy quality may be. I don't take the tape measure with me into the field because that is not my primary concern, it is the experience of the hunt, then we can pull out the tape when the animal is in the salt. It is fairly common as a hunter returns to the dark continent he becomes more particular about the quality of the animal that he desires. I rely on the Ph to say,,, this is a great representative of this species in this area, or, we can do much better than this, that is what I am paying him for. Every Ph sets his own personal standards based upon what has been discussed. you can make more money, you can not make more time | |||
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Tex84 - too much emphasis on record books can spoil a hunt. That been said no one can deny that the hunting industry has benefited from the record books. Most hunts in In Africa are +- 10 days and in good areas you can take a dozen species in this time, a first timer holding out for Only record book animals could end in severely reduced bag and an all round dampened experience!! Now to try answer your question! PH's use RW for a couple reasons. Generally (bar buffalo and horn deformity) an animal that makes RW min will make it into SCI books comfortably!! Secondly hunting here (Souther Africa) is conducted walk and stalk style often animals don't give you the time to try and add up SCI scores, RW can be judged much quicker.. As has been said before communicate with your PH tell him your min requirement but be prepared to leave without the animal...but don't let it ruin the overall experience, All the best and good hunting | |||
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Of my ten safaris I did eight, including the first, with the same PH. On my first trip the emphasis was on learning the ropes and getting a feel for the whole thing. As I matured, and collected several of the more common trophies, we upped the ante. At all times he was a good listener and we had some great experiences together. We also encountered and dealt with a few problems, together. He was a mentor, and I'm grateful. He contributed immensely to my enjoyment of Africa. | |||
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Wether it be africa or australia every ph I have had has always tried to get me on the best trophy they could without me asking them too. It's probably a sense of pride in accomplishment. | |||
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In my limited experience, on this and other subjects, such as women, communication is key. I just returned from a safari with a PH with whom I had never hunted because another PH was injured. Our first conversations involved what I have previously shot, what I was and was not interested in, what size trophies of animals I wasn't particularly interested in would peak my interest, etc. That open communication translated into a great safari. None of the three buffalo we took are over 40" -- but I have bulls over 40". All three we took were old, and unique in their own way. In one, we recovered two muzzle loader bullets from poachers in years past. I didn't plan to shoot another sable, but when a good one came along, we did. Because we had discussed it beforehand, no communication was necessary at the moment of truth. Also, a lot of small antelope walked without any discussion. All because these issues had been discussed at the outset. | |||
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Good communication before the hunt is important. You should be setting the expectations and the PH should be advising you. If I have a "shopping list" of animals, a 7 day hunt, and I expect them all to score well up there in the SCI record book then hopefully the PH will explain that my expectations are not reasonable. Then we can have a discussion about my priorities. Several times while hunting I heard "we can do better" or "that one isn't as good as the one you already have" on animals that were looking good to me. I appreciate that when he could have said shoot and collect the trophy fee. I don't hunt with a tape measure and I am okay with taking an average animal as long as it is mature. I don't want to have to take to wipe the milk off of its mouth before taking the trophy photo. DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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